12:12

July 18, 2011

Scientology: Secret no more

By Jonathan Kirsch

Tweet

Share

One advantage of starting a religion in antiquity is that Rolling Stone was not around to ask awkward questions about Moses or Jesus or Muhammad.

By contrast, Janet Reitman — a contributing editor for Rolling Stone and author of its 2007 cover story about Scientology — has brought the modern arsenal of investigative journalism to bear on the Church of Scientology, which she calls a “shape-shifting” organization that can be described as “alternative to psychotherapy, social movement, transnational corporation, cult, religion.” Now Reitman presents her findings in an exhaustive but fascinating book, “Inside Scientology: The Story of America’s Most Secretive Religion” (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt: $28).

Reitman maintains a scrupulous journalistic discipline, and she cannot be fairly accused of attacking “America’s least understood new faith.” She never actually says that it’s a “dangerous cult,” and she doesn’t wonder out loud whether it ought to be called a religion at all, but she certainly reports when others do so. Her goal, she insists, is “to write the first objective modern history of the Church of Scientology.” Her research may be unimpeachable, but her point of view is unmistakable.

“The traditional religious bedrock — worship, God, love and compassion, even the very concept of faith — is wholly absent from its precepts,” she writes. “And, unique among modern religions, Scientology charges members for every service, book and course offered, promising greater and greater spiritual enlightenment with every dollar spent. People don’t ‘believe’ in Scientology; they buy into it.”

The story begins with L. Ron Hubbard, whom Reitman describes as “salesman, guru, sea commodore, spymaster, poet, recluse, tyrant, and, last but not least, a very rich man” and whom she calls “one of the most effective hucksters of his generation.” A prolific writer of science fiction, he penned a self-help book titled “Dianetics” in 1950 and then transformed it into the sacred text of a new religion — “Book One” is what the Scientologists call it today. Although Hubbard died in 1986, the author points out that Hubbard remains very much alive in the imaginations of his followers. “I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form,” Hubbard once confessed, and Reitman shows how fully he has achieved his aspiration.

Reitman goes on to show how the science-fiction underpinnings of Dianetics — the use of an “E-meter” to “audit” the human mind and to thereby liberate the imprisoned “theta beings,” if I have correctly grasped the fundamentals of Scientology — were put to use in the founding of a new religion.  “This reframing from the ‘mental science’ of Dianetics to the religion of Scientology was a typically canny move by Hubbard,” Reitman writes.  “It was probably not lost on L. Ron Hubbard that the most popular therapist and self-help guru in America, Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, was also a minister.”

Above all, however, Hubbard had found a way to place Scientology beyond the reach of the law. “As practitioners of ‘mental science,’ Dianetics and Scientology auditors had been scrutinized for lacking the appropriate medical or psychological licenses,” Reitman explains. “[A]s clergy, they could counsel whomever they wanted, under the protection of a church. They could also claim tax-exempt status.”

By the 1960s, Scientology appealed to certain of the baby boomers who were challenging all of the old assumptions, including religious ones. “Had the sixties never happened,” writes Reitman, “Scientology might have gone the way of other fringe movements and died a quiet death. Instead, repositioned as a mystical quest rather than an alternative health therapy or religious movement, Scientology rode the countercultural wave.”

Scientology regarded a number of conventional sources of authority, including psychiatry, journalism and government, as deadly enemies. Fearful of scrutiny by law enforcement, IRS agents and reporters, Scientology adopted a policy designed to detect and purge unreliable members and organized “a clandestine army of informants” to conduct counter-espionage. Hubbard himself went into hiding and was never seen in public after 1980.

After Hubbard’s death in 1986, the focus of the book turns to his disciple and successor, David Miscavige, whom Reitman describes as “volatile and driven.” Miscavige presided over a landmark settlement of IRS tax claims against Scientology: “The war is over!” he proclaimed to a gathering of 10,000 Scientologists at the Los Angeles Sports Arena in 1993. “The future is ours.” But, as Reitman points out, he also headed the organization as it confronted new crises, including the criminal prosecution that resulted after the death of a member who had been forcibly confined for treatment of a mental illness.

Miscavige, she writes, is “a relentless promoter, cooler and less eccentric than L. Ron Hubbard,” and “under his leadership, Scientology’s brand would become flashier.” His greatest coup was the recruitment of Tom Cruise to serve as the spokesman for Scientology: “This guy is so famous,” exulted Miscavige, according to one of the author’s sources, “he could change the face of Scientology forever.”

The chapter about the “seduction” of Tom Cruise is the juiciest tidbit in the whole book.  When the initial “audit” of the young action star revealed that he was afraid of guns, Miscavige took him skeet shooting at Scientology’s secret base at Gilman Hot Springs in the California desert.  Still, when some of the “hidden truths” of Scientology were finally revealed to Cruise after seven years of membership, he “freaked out and was like, ‘What the f—- is this science fiction s—-?’ ” or so says one source. Still, Cruise fulfilled his promise as a proselytizer: “Tom talked and acted as if he were a clone of David Miscavige.”

Reitman makes no prophecies about the fate of Scientology, which she characterizes as a “fundamentalist” faith with its own apostates, many of whom were happy to speak with her. (To its credit, so was the Church of Scientology.) “Whether it will endure in spite of that rests on whether its basic mission — to ‘clear’ the planet and thus create a Scientology world — remains vital to its flock, and to their children.” The rest of us, thanks to Reitman’s work, can only watch and wonder.

A version of this article appeared in print.

---

Post your comment below!

Click here to return to the homepage.

COMMENTS

We welcome your feedback. Comments may not exceed 700 characters.

Privacy Policy

Your information will not be shared or sold without your consent. Get all the details.

Terms of Service

JewishJournal.com has rules for its commenting community.Get all the details.

That was an excellent review and shows the quality of Reitman’s writing and research. The Scientology cult is claiming she is ignorant and full of hatred.

They are ignorant, and full of it. David Miscavige, cult leader, is a high school dropout.

The thing about Tom Cruise balking at the OTIII Xenu story is something. And to think David Miscavige, his best friend, used to share personal details of Cruise’s auditing folder with other top execs, and laugh about them. He did that on his “whiskey night” at the Gold Base compound.

Cruise would never believe it. He’s too busy KSW (Keeping Scientology Working) as the only one who can “save the planet.”

Comment by Fitch on 7/18/11 at 3:17 pm

Great book for people who want to know more about Scientology, I recommend it highly.

Comment by ObjectiveReporting on 7/18/11 at 3:48 pm

An article praising someone’s journalistic credibility would do well to avoid errors of fact of its own: Paragraph 5 says Hubbard died in 1985, contradicting paragraph 10 and reality; he died in 1986.

Comment by Yiftach on 7/18/11 at 4:12 pm

Excellent comprehensive coverage of the issue which is especially important to young Jeiwsh college kids who are vulnerable to recruiting when they are on their own in college for the first time.

A big issue is the legal term “disclosure” which the article does not discuss.  Does the book?  If it took Tom Cruise seven years to see the emperor has no clothes, how long for the rest.

There is another issue of the vast financial wealth and number of employees in the organization.

And most importantly they are vehemently against psychiatry and the current medicines used in its practice, which are more effective than any e-meter.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 4:17 pm

This book is a fringe publication only of interest to a group of fanatics and not even those are happy about it. For that reason it has sold a couple of hundred copies only. In my opinion, as a reader, this book is corrupt. Reitman not only limited her interviews to outspoken antagonists against the Church of Scientology she also did not once accept a tour through the very institutions she is defaming in this book. A 100% hack job to please a handful of people.

Comment by Jeff on 7/18/11 at 4:23 pm

If you check out the bibliography of this book, you’ll see that all of her sources are old publications or books that adapt a completely biased and negative view of Scientology. Her research is on the surface level, she barely talked to anyone worth talking to on the positive side of Scientology, and yet she claims “expert” status. I don’t know how talking to people who have biased personal feelings counts as real research, and I question how publications such as this commend the book without really looking into the integrity of its research.

Comment by Vera on 7/18/11 at 4:31 pm

While I have not read the book, the article seems quite hostile towards scientology. It seems that all religions, except buddhism and scientology, demand the worship to some god and the obedience to their cruel laws and fear of their cruel and terroristic gods if disobeyed.

While I am a jew that believes all religions are creations of cruel gods, scientology may be exempted from that belief. While all religions put people in fear and disempower them, scientology seems to do the opposite. Why the author’s hostility for scientology?

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 4:32 pm

Jeff,Vera, and VINCERO are Scientology Office of Special Affairs “internet handlers” and staff members, and maybe just one person posting under multiple nicknames, it’s their job to patrol the internet to attack this book.

Comment by ObjectiveReporting on 7/18/11 at 4:38 pm

I think given the history of Scientology, including breaking into the Washington DC offices of the IRS to steal their files, it would be helpful to know the connection to Scientology, if any, of

Jeff
Vera

Jonathan Kirsch is a respected book critic and would not likely be taken in by a smear campaign as you indicate.

Vincero needs to do a little research to uncover the lives wrecked and the families destroyed by the cult-like suction of this organization. 

I share his measured distrust of religion and deities.

But this is also a civil rights issue as well as a financial one.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 4:40 pm

Thank you for the excellent review of “Inside Scientology- The story of America’s most secretive religion” This is a must read for any serious student of new-age religions.

This book has very wide public appeal. It is currently on the New York bestsellers list, and ranks #33 for nonfiction (books and e-books combines).

Comment by Sarah Tomslin on 7/18/11 at 4:48 pm

Excellent review! One thing, however:

You wrote “Scientology regarded a number of conventional sources of authority, including psychiatry, journalism and government, as deadly enemies.”

It should state “regards “, not “regarded”, as in past tense. Scientology policies dictate that these sources are enemies and are to be treated as such. Present tense. Google “Scientology + Fair Game” .

Comment by Mary McConnell on 7/18/11 at 4:50 pm

Logician
Yes I have only skimmed the data on scientology, but compared to the mainstream religions which (or witch) have destroyed millions of people’s lives yearly (a reasonable estimate) with their lies, threats and controls, I don’t believe scientology can match that batting average.

Bottom line is that any religion or pseudoreligion is open season for Catholicism and Christianity as well as the hard core jews and other religious fanatics.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 4:52 pm

Logician
continued

The US gov is just an arm of christianity and christianity whose origin, the catholic church, which is a fascist government without territory, is still imposing their fascist laws on non christians in the US and other countries.

If nothing else, scientology doesn’t want to control me, unless I want them to. Christianity wants to control me and the rest of the world, no matter what.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 4:53 pm

mary

I agree that psychiatry, journalism and government, are deadly enemies and the US government, especially, is a pack of wolves in sheeps clothing, with the clothing becoming more tattered and revealing as the years go by.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 4:56 pm

Vincero—

Whether you are a Scientolofy operative or not, your argument does not hold water.

It is not about which religion harms how many like a batting average.

Scientology continues to destroy the lives and finances of millions of people all over the world with tax free status.

Yes, it has saved numerous addicts and alcoholics and pyschopaths from worse fates, people of conscience must speak out against the abuse of the helpless and hopeless.

So hook up your e-meter and shed those Thetans before the volcano blows up.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 4:57 pm

irst, full disclosure, I am a Scientologist - I think all religions, in a free country, of course, should be the possible subjects of accurate, unbiased and balanced academic and/or literary review. I have no problem with that. The question here, is is this book accurate, unbiased and balanced? As a Scientologist, having read the book and compared it to my years as a parishioner, I’d say unfortunately, the answer here is that it is not, however, I wonder how much of that was the author’s wish, and how much was the publisher’s editing? I’d appreciate hearing the author’s response to that question.

Comment by allen f on 7/18/11 at 5:00 pm

Make no mistake, this is a very harmful CULT.

It breaks up families, fairgames critics, it hides behind a religious cloak all for the sake of money.
We are parents from the UK and we talk from experience.
Most of the comments supporting Scientology are from scientologists (OSA)
They watch every critical thread and media report, and they clone there comments.
Disconnection is key to survival for this cult.
Tony and Sue.

Comment by Getbeckyout on 7/18/11 at 5:03 pm

logician
So, according to you, it is okay to destroy millions of peoples lives and be tax exempt like the catholic church, but because there is no worship of a god, in scientology, it is evil?

If those thetans are ETs, then scientology has a handle on the cause of most problems on this planet. thetans are probably their word for souls, non physical symbiotic and parasitic beings that inslaves humans for the antichrist.

and no, I do not expect anyoen to believe that.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 5:07 pm

I find it surprising that a publication such as this would promote such a prejudice perspective on a religion.

Comment by Jerimiah Brooks on 7/18/11 at 5:13 pm

Getbeckyout
There have been several eastern gurus that have been accused of being cult leaders. Christians attempted to deprogram their children that followed them. I was accused of being a cult leader back in 93 and all I was doing was helping people to empower themselves. It seems that anytime someone wants to assist people in restoring their power that was taken from them by religion or their parents, they are tagged as cult leaders. It is the ignorant parents that programmed their children into fear and the gurus that deprogrammed them and liberated them from fear.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 5:18 pm

At least Allen F is honest about his connection.
And I thoroughly support his right to support and believe in the groupthink. I don’t think they should have a religious exemption.  They came a little late to the table.

And when the broke into an IRS office in Washington, it is clear that these people are marginally psychotic.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 5:23 pm

Scientology does not disclose the cost of “treatments” and increasing onvolvment.

Scientology cuts off individuals’ communication and connection to families and friends.

Scientology routinely threatens its critics.

Sound like a cult to you?

Comment by The Logigian on 7/18/11 at 5:29 pm

Let me clarify something.

Most religions are CULTS and they use mind control just like the Nazis do. Every Sunday or Saturday, they tell and told their congregations lies, over and over again, until they believe them. They control their congregations by fear, threats of damnation and they scorn all that don’t follow the leaders and laws of the religions (cults). Their members follow suit in terrorizing other noncompliant members.

For example, when I decided not to have a bar mitzva, the Jewish kids in my class taunted me until I bent in submission.

Logigian?

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 5:53 pm

A virus Destroys a computer.
L. Ron Hubbard observed back in 1950 discovered that Pain destroys the Human computer.  He published Dianetics, which is how one can remove the Pain from there own mind. But one must use it to know it works.
Our enemies who are making $Billions off Drugs, don’t want the truth out, so Unless one looks for themselves at what Dianetics and then Scientology is all about, they have to be satisfied with the lies passed around in the media by our enemies.
Remove the Pain and you remove Irrationality, Hatred, Fears,Insanity, Psycosomatic Illnesses & Amnesia which has stolen your Spiritual memories of You. pt1

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/18/11 at 6:08 pm

part 2
You are an eternal SPIRT. That is why Scientology is a Religion in the purest sense. LRH just found that, the Spirit remembering everything gives him back his Spiritual abilities. It is an unbelievable adventure recalling it all, but the prove is in Scientology we get back your Spiritual Abilities and so you can operate as a Spirit again rather than the low abilites of Man.

We prefer you to look rather than Believe, as abilities come from Certainty, which you get if you would only LOOK.
Believing in what the media says, only gives one an opinion. That won’t save this planet from the irrationality all around us. Knowledge is certainty…

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/18/11 at 6:11 pm

Vincero and Diamonddille prove how idiotic Scientology is.

OF COURSE religion is a form of mind control.  So what?
And many millions of abuses have occured and continue to do so in its name…including yours.

But the false and misleading information, plus the illegal and immoral tactics of this cult make it just as bad as anything else.

It’s just one form of mumbo jumbo replacing another.

We thinks you guys protest too much.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 6:23 pm

I was in Scientology for many years.  I discovered that the church couldn’t give me what was promised in Dianetics, much less what is promised in Scientology.  My spouse realized that long ago, but had to hide that from me for fear I would want a divorce.  Now, we hide our feelings from our family for fear of losing them.  I thought I was working for total freedom and instead I joined a group of people that give up civil rights the rest of this country’s citizens (who Scientologists look down upon for being ignorant or worse)enjoy for free!

I’ve read Inside Scientology and it is quite a page turner.  I hope it continues to get a lot of publicity - I want my family back!!!!

Comment by Scientology Ethics on 7/18/11 at 6:46 pm

Whoa there Vincero buddy.  ANy deprogrammer worth his salt knows that Scientology is as bad or worse than Jews for Jesus and others.

No deporgrammer who is really credentialed in any way would call anyone a nazi, point blank. ANd do I detect some anti-Semitism in your “your whole cult” accusation?

Agaiun, no serioous psychological counselor would speak like this.

If Scientology is only less worse than others, it is still a bad bunch of people.

There is a reason Jeff and Mary jumped off this thread…they knew they had been found out.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 7:21 pm

Scientology Ethics

You have said what your problem is. You won’t find it outside of yourself. You were afraid to tell your spouse and you are afraid to tell you parents. The maajority of your problems is FEAR!!!! You were born fearless and your family indoctrinated (programmed you) in fear. Your fear of not pleasing your hubby and your parents gives them the power over you. You have to source yourself for love, approval and finances. TAKE BACK YOUR POWER!!

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 7:39 pm

logician
I don’t call anyone nazis, I just call nazis nazis.

Jeff and Mary spoke their piece and left. I personally don’t buy Jeff’s video. Why didn’t his daughter do a video? I don’t believe him.

As for deprogramming, I guess I forgot to read the deprogrammers book of protocol. Did you write it? Will you autograph my copy? I just finished reading all 2 pages of it.

Wasn’t it WC Fields that said, “Anyone who hates government and religion can’t be all bad.”?

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 7:45 pm

Wow I answered all the questions here, but I had 3800 words and am only allowed 700. It will give you a better understanding so If you email me at Diamonddille@yahoo.com I will email it to you. But it would be better to get it from the source. Go to www.Dianetics.org or www.Scientology.org See why we are expanding so fast and see what the plans are, I guarantee you you will want to be part of it.

If you had all the pain in your mind removed and became a Sevant or a Protegy, and knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you followed the steps laid out in Dianetics and Scientology that if we had more people in control of there own mind, our society will have a better chance at survival.

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/18/11 at 8:31 pm

@ Logician, What are you talking about: “There is a reason Jeff and Mary jumped off this thread…they knew they had been found out.”

Were you referring to me? I’m the only noted Mary posting on this thread you seem to think I’ve jumped from. If you were commenting about me, it sounds like you misunderstood what I wrote. My comment was to the author of the article, correcting a statement referring to the use of past tense as opposed to present tense in describing Scientology’s regard to it’s “deadly enemies”. Perhaps you should go re-read what I wrote.

I didn’t bother to reply to Vincero’s reply to my comment because his I am a Scientologist statement speaks for itself.

Comment by Mary McConell on 7/18/11 at 9:25 pm

Mary, he is talking about Tony and Sue.

Logician, thank you for your resume. Dr. Gregory House says, everyone lies, so don’t feel bad if I don’t believe you. You might try writing a novel.

Anyone who goes for the jugular the first time is a nazi.

Stop projecting your childhood on me. And I don’t follow any secret code of behavior of therapists. I get results fast because I am direct and do not pussyfoot around, with my clients. I wasn’t programmed by any religion or any medical school or college.

I am not a scientologist either. I just support them being them.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 9:40 pm

Mary—

My apologies.  I meant Vera, whose early post sounded like a page out of their textbook.

I know you from other threads, and we certainbly agree on this one.

I welcome all points of view in the Journal, but this thread feels like we have been invaded by aliens.

My apologies again.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 9:41 pm

Logician believes that if someone defends a group, they are part of the group. for example: Lots of jews defended black civil rights and they weren’t black, nor did they benefit from their actions.

some people actually do things unconditionally.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 9:48 pm

Vincero—

Black oppression was a horrible stain on American democracy and equality; and every thinking person should have opposed it.

Similarly, Scientology is guilty of endemic corruption, extortion and manipulation of its adherents, and these damaging aspects outweigh any good it does society.

If Jews want to maintain the horrible moral currency they paid for in blood during the Holocaust, they must continue to condemn tyranny where ever they see it.

You may not be a Scientology operative, but I am sure you can understand how some here might think so. You seem to be as agenda driven as Jeff and Vera, even if it is your own.

Comment by The Logician on 7/18/11 at 10:00 pm

logician

I have been the target ot terrorism, bigotry and hatred from christians, in and out of their religions and their governments. they have tried to convert me.

I have met scientologists and none of them have said anything that was hateful, nor did they attempt to convert me or even sell me anything.

I think what I like about them is that, like me, they do not pussyfoot around when it comes to healings. they go directly for the problem.

My experience is that most people do not want themselves or others to have their personal powers. I see those that attack scientology as those people. So, when an organization wants people to have them, I want to support that.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 10:09 pm

@Diamonddille:

I’d love to check out your church but you’ve already declared me beyond saving. Hubbard wrote that homosexuals are “about 1.1 on the tone scale” and that “Homosexuals don’t practice love; 1.1s can’t” (Handbook for Preclears, 1951). Furthermore, due to medications I am on, I would need to perform the useless procedure called the “Purification rundown” in order to receive services. Finally, I couldn’t handle being in a church that lies to the world about their beliefs. I can talk to priests at length about Jesus, Moses, etc. I can’t talk to an auditor about subjects such as Xenu or the Obscene Dog Incident; they’ll either refuse they exist, or refuse to talk.

Comment by Kes on 7/18/11 at 10:16 pm

Now that is interesting. I didn’t know they practiced a bias against homosexuals. I wonder what that is all about.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/18/11 at 10:34 pm

I’m enjoying reading Vincero’s comments- he sounds absolutely insane, and that’s always fun to watch. It’s the same reason why I like to watch that old show “Cops”- to watch the bizarre and self-conflicting rants. Keep it up, Vincero, sounds like you have a LOT of personal demons to share (metaphorically speaking)

Comment by Fred on 7/18/11 at 10:49 pm

Odds are best that Vincero IS indeed a scientologist, but is practicing covert ops in order to lend credence to the group. Seriously, when was the last time you talked to a scientologist who didn’t try to sell anything? hell, it conflicts even here, when Diamonddille tried to get us all in the fold.
But, I wonder if she knows about the thousands upon thousands that WERE in the group, and left with stories of abuse, crimes and unethical behavior? The independent movement is growing, filled with those that were driven off w/ miscavige.
Same reason why 90% of hubbard’s personal staff (while he was alive) was later declared “supressive” under miscavige? Is the problem with hubbard or COB?

Comment by Fred on 7/18/11 at 10:55 pm

Here’s how it’s easy to tell that Vicero is a scientologist, and a great representative of the group:
Look at the posts. See how they’re dripping with anger, and attack and demean religion? But… not all religions. For all his anger and rants, he has nothing bad to say about scientology. Not a thing. In fact, in between his rants about how terrible certain religions are, he slips in a few comments about the benefits of scientology. What do you say, Vincero- do you support scientology over other religions? Do you think that L Ron Hubbard, the confirmed war fraud, is a hero to look up to?

Comment by Fred on 7/18/11 at 11:01 pm

hmm, Vicero- yeah, that’s my level all right. I thing I said about the same thing as you, just without the cursing, references to your mother, nazi references and vapid narcissism. Once again, I point to the fact that you still can’t seem to say anything negative about scientology. You know you’ll get in trouble if you even question it, don’t you?

And coming to your own defense with a sock account? Classy, that one. Your sock puppet comes off as much of an incoherent babbling weirdo as your main one!

Comment by Fred on 7/18/11 at 11:38 pm

VINCERO is defintely a Scientology guerilla marketer, although I might have spelled “guerilla” wrong, Brooklyn Abe is another Scientologist who’s joined us.

Comment by ObjectiveReporting on 7/18/11 at 11:59 pm

cont:

including his war record and marriages, and who disowned his own son for being gay. You’d know that this is a group that sentences children to hard labor and has people who disagree with management literally locked up.
And if after all that, all you can say is you “don’t support” them, then I know that you’re here for another reason.
Maybe I’m wrong- you’re not a scientologist. You’re not sane enough for them.
Please let me know if you ever find your marbles.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 12:00 am

ObjectiveReporting:
Yeah, I think you’re right
I find it odd that someone that violently hostile can have nothing bad to say about the group, especially one with such a high percentage of suicides and other deaths (per capita).
It’s funny how many people start with “I’m not a scientologist, but…”. Almost every time they are. In fact, money’s good that anyone that supports scientology is one; the rest of the world rejects it.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 12:02 am

“The church [Scientology] is notorious for tenaciously attempting to silence its critics and for equating any criticism with religious bigotry. It even compares the plight of Scientologists to that of Jews in Nazi Germany.” -Tori Marlan, Death of a Scientologist 8/15/02, Chicago Reader

Comment by Tombow on 7/19/11 at 12:03 am

Fred
Boy are you easy to spin up. don’t blow a blood vessel.

LOL ROFL

Comment by VINCERO on 7/19/11 at 12:03 am

I like this one:
“A christian like Vincero says”
Did you mean to post under your sock puppet account, or did you suddenly slip into the third person?
Most likely, you meant to pretend to be abe again.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 12:08 am

Kes, note that statement (about Gays) was made in 1951. To survive then, they had to be covert.

Look at it the same way people making alcohol during prohibition, when it was illegal to make alcohol, how many covert people snuck around getting alcohol?

Covert just means acting with hidden intentions. Cheat on your wife and you will have hidden intentions. you are being covert to her.
Is that any reason not to fix your mind by doing Scientology? That is all Dianetics and Scientology are really doing. We train auditors, who are practitioners of Dianetics and Scientology. You start at a class 0 Auditor and work your way all the way up to a Class 12 auditor who can fix anyones mind.

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 12:19 am

Whoa, VINVERO has faulty recollections of Welcome Back Kotter, it was supposed to be “Gabe”, he must not be “clear” yet.

Comment by ObjectiveReporting on 7/19/11 at 12:23 am

Objective:
you say he must not be clear yet… but who is? Last I checked, Scientology still hasn’t produced a clear that met Hubbard’s definition of what one was. So, yeah, you’re probably right!
It just seems to me that the only “gains” from scientology are all subjective, in the realm of “I feel better” about things. But all of the concrete promises and claims of Hubbard? Most, if not all, have never been seen. Would you pay up to $300,000 and get nothing concrete in return? That’s about what you do when you climb up the bridge.

Comment by fred on 7/19/11 at 12:27 am

“Kes, note that statement (about Gays) was made in 1951. To survive then, they had to be covert”

Yeah, Diamonddille, Hubbard was only saying what your friends, the psychologists and psychiatrists, were saying. Then, when they exposed Scientology and Dianetics as a fraud he turned on them, without retracting any of his anti-gay statements though.

Comment by ObjectiveReporting on 7/19/11 at 12:29 am

@Objective Reporting. FRAUD? Are you saying that erasing an engram does not work? I invite you down to any Dianetics Seminar and witness one raising his IQ 6X from freeing one from their Birth Engram that they were stuck in there whole life.
I have seen miracles for 35 years. Your lies are keeping people from experiencing an experience they would never forget, if they were to run a Birth Engram. Unless your a Sevant or a Protegy then you do not have full use of your Mind and You need Dianetics and Scientology.  pt 1

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 12:59 am

Diamond-
despite the very simple ways this could be accomplished, if true, have any of the claims of scientology EVER been validated outside of scientology?
And, why does scientology use its own version of an IQ test, rather than the standard test?

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 1:02 am

I am sorry you bought the lies our enemies are spreading who keep Man Man. Realize we are Freeing Man from his body and the Physical Universe. We are bringing man 40 emotional tones above enthusiasm which isn’t possible to experience in the body. You take drugs they kick you out of your body. Why do people take drugs? They feel good. Well with the pain run out of ones mind, he will feel so good he literally floats out of his body and stays stabibly exterior. If you ever had an OBE (out of Body Experience) then you will know your not this piece of meat we call a body, we are the consciousness or Spirit. You could be stabily exterior, all the time. pt2

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:05 am

That is called OT in Scientology. It is you operating outside the body knowingly. You are exterior to life. You are experiencing life at a totally diferent state of Being. It is operating at a different viewpoint.

Someone that is negitive and blames everyone for his problems cannot see the effects he is creating. He cannot see that when he hates someone, that someone hates him.
Having the viewpoint one gets as he goes up the Bridge, gives him the optimum viewpoint to have in order to succeed in life. If you succeed in life, you can have anything. So what is money at that point?

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:34 am

If people could have money, they would have it. Your mind determines your Havingness and your possesions. If you were as introverted as that Street person, you would have what any street person has. Understand we are all at some level. you can grow. You can grow to heights that you will never believe possible. You can grow towards GOD. He is a Spirit that knows too. We know you are a Spirit in Scientology. There is along path to grow. But one can do it in as little as 3 years. We are fixing the mind and giving him the correct viewpoint to have in order to succeed.

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:40 am

People who make that seem bad, just don’t understand. You cannot hate what you understand. Man totally understanding rises back to who he really is, a Spirit. In other words if you could see truth you would operate as a Spirit and be free from the body and the Physical Universe. This sounds nuts to Man I know, but I find it to be true as I have experienced being exterior from my body for 3 days. The goal of Scientology is very real to me. If the whole world experienced it we would have no wars, criminality and insanity. Those are Scientology’s goals. Realize we really do have the technology to free man. He is not even aware he is trapped.

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:44 am

One can know and understand why man acts insanely. You have been a Spirit for nearly an eternity of time and have experienced so many deaths, births and between life implants (all of which is Pain) is it any wonder we all have AMNESIA?
People need to do the bridge before what I am saying would be real to them. But theoretically what if I am right? Do you understand why Scientology must succeed? We havent operated at the level of a Spirit in a millinia of time. We have a chance to finally go home.

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:46 am

To those of you that that is real, then perhaps you will realize the value of Scientology. We are freeing Beings for real. You do not have to die to know your a Spirit. Those realizing it always have a changed life. Try to have a Scientologists viewpoint long enough to understand us. We don’t put down your Religion, why are you putting down ours? We fight for your beliefs…
There is something to learn here. Lots of people thought we were something, we were not. When they finally see what were about, they join us. Go check out the site www.Scientology.org
When man is fully sane we will have a world we all dream of. Diamonddille

Comment by Diamonddille on 7/19/11 at 1:57 am

An acquaintance did math on how long it would take to “clear the planet.”

Assumptions:

Population of the world: 6 billion, 6,000,000,000

Number of Orgs in the world: 300

Number of people that must be disseminated by each org: 20 million: 20,000,000

Number of people cleared weekly by each org: 10

Number of weeks Planetary clearing requires (at a rate of 10 bodies cleared each week, with a quota of 20 million) 2 Million weeks: 2,000,000

Estimated number of weeks remaining since Dianetics began: 1,997,400 weeks

Number of days it will take 300 orgs, clearing 10 bodies a week to clear the planet’s 6 billion people: 13,851,200 Days.

Or, put in perspective: 37,948 Years.

Comment by Luke Warmwater on 7/19/11 at 2:23 am

Comment by Diamonddille:

“To those of you that that is real, then perhaps you will realize the value of Scientology.”
_________________________________________________________

With a literacy level as defective as yours, sweetheart, I wouldn’t trust you with a quarter, let alone my spirituality.

Your “church” is bogus. Your cult is corrupt and vile. Your O$A are a clump of retarded thugs from outer space.

If Janet’s book wasn’t such a big success, you would be counting & clearing your body thetans with your holy e-meter, and not bothering with all this chit-chat on the internet. You’re enturbulated and I’m glad.

$cientology = psychosis as sacrament.

Comment by Luke Warmwater on 7/19/11 at 2:37 am

Diamond,
While I think there’s many of us that don’t personally accept the belief system of scientolology, it’s not the beliefs we protest. Honestly, Scientology has the same subjective validation as any other belief.
It’s the abuses and crimes that start at the top that many of us criticize. It’s the fact that former members are RIGHT NOW being stalked and harassed. It’s the number of suicides and other deaths that are a direct result of org actions. It’s the thousands and thousands of former members (all the way to OT8, including those that worked with Hubbard himself- they did experience it) that have left the group under Miscavige,

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 7:03 am

Cont.
Often with similar stories of abuse and alterations of hubbards tech. This includes miscavige’s own brother and neice, plus countless others. Heck, 90% of hubbards personal staff was declared under Miscavige.
Was the problem with Hubbard, or current management?

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 7:08 am

It is good to see people show their better selves in this “discussion”.

It is not the belief system, which is a bit daft, but just as daft in its own way as a virgin birth or an oil lamp burning for eight days, that arouses such a response.

It is the countless damage the organization has caused and continues to aggressively pursue as a modus opernadi.

Thank you Fred, Luke and others for calling something by its real name.

I think it is time to end this discussion so as not to fuel the real Thetans that trouble these people so much.

PS:  Note above Vincero cites Vuncero as though he is a separate person.

Comment by The Logician on 7/19/11 at 7:35 am

Scientology is no different than the history of any grouping/association. Humans are gregarious by nature and group thinking is a way to sporadically survive. But as the history of any group thinking will demonstrate its own demise is built in as any socio-econo-political amalgamation that ever existed. Scientology as well as Communism or Capitalism will be remembered only as transient evolutions.

Comment by Alex Nodopaka on 7/19/11 at 8:34 am

continued

I am not a member of any group. Because I am different from all others, I have been a target, not only of christians, catholics, but Jews, my own people. Jews, where I currently reside say, when I ask if they are Jewish, “I was born a Jew.”. they are intelligent enough to know that Judiasm, like all ancient religions, were designed to control people, not liberate them. Judiasm seems to produce people of higher intelligence by not using terrorism as a primary tool of child rearing, like christians do. Fear of god is terrorism, when the punishment for disobedience is burning for eternity.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/19/11 at 9:28 am

Vincero—

People of conscience oppose all tyranny, Christian, Muslim and that of your cult.

Your own writing shows the dynamics of the Nazis and the Republicans.  You never respond to claims with anything other than distracting and unrelated claims.

I think you have not examined your own reactions and those of Scientology for Nazi-like qualities.

Please liberate your humanity somewhere else.

Comment by The Logician on 7/19/11 at 9:31 am

Vincero-
All I’ll say is this:
Sometimes, when the whole world is against you, the problem isn’t “everyone else”. Sometimes, when you unite the world in agreement that you’re wrong,”... You actually are.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 9:39 am

Anyone notice that he STILL can’t find anything bad to say about Scientology? It’s against Scientology policy to speak against the church, and you will literally be imprisoned in a Scientology facility if you say anything other than positive against Hubbard or Miscavige. That’s why he can’t do it.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 9:45 am

vincero, please do not ever compare Scientology to Buddhism. Nor Eastern Gurus or the Buddha to LRH. They have nothing, NOTHING in common. Not even the 4 noble truths. One is selfish based, the other is selfless based. Thank you.

Comment by chenrezig on 7/19/11 at 9:50 am

chenrezig

Buddhism and scientology are brother and sister and walk hand and hand through the world in an attempt to bring peace.

Comment by VINCERO on 7/19/11 at 9:57 am

I was a Staff member of Scientology, we who were there and participated know the truth. This book lays out the truth.This Vincero character is operating on orders, comments mad here by others are being made by individuals with a desire to communicate. Scientology professes to open up this skill, yet lacks the integrity to let anyone ask, or speak out in opposition. They think they have all the answers to everything, and that only they are right, well, the truth is, they are wrong.Many former members are, and will continue to leave and speak out, soon, they will truly be a closed group. “A cult” DM gets his wish!

Comment by Former Member on 7/19/11 at 10:01 am

readers=> please disregard Vincero’s comments comparing Buddhism and Scientology. He has little knowledge of values and lay precepts of Buddhism. I am not sure what his attempts are by comparison.
However, Buddhism is beautiful Faith and one of the oldest religions to help calm the mind to realize end of suffering of ALL sentient beings. It is not selfish, and greed based.

Comment by chenrezig on 7/19/11 at 10:08 am

“You all learned hatred from your mothers, who hated you because they were forced to have you. You learned by emulating your mother. That is how all nazis were created, by their mothers, who learned hatred from their mothers, all the way back to the first Pope.”

Wow, it’s like you can see right into my soul. You’re so perceptive; thank you, this has changed my life. I’ll change now.

Comment by fred on 7/19/11 at 10:18 am

further vincero,
a common Buddhist, aphorism is “drive all blames into one.”
you have shown nothing of that here. Instead, you have blamed all other religious, faiths, govts, organizations, for the problems in your/scientology’s world. This extreme departure from Buddhism. Meditation provides the gateway for realization (shunyata) to help realize we can “drive all blames into one,” using compassion and loving kindness towards ALL sentient beingsinstead of seeking blame into others and drive hatred and anger into the world, furthering cycle of suffering. Can you now see the difference between our two worlds?

Comment by chenrezig on 7/19/11 at 10:18 am

Well said, Chen.

Comment by Fred on 7/19/11 at 10:33 am

“An article praising someone’s journalistic credibility would do well to avoid errors of fact of its own: Paragraph 5 says Hubbard died in 1985, contradicting paragraph 10 and reality; he died in 1986.”

Hoo boy, that comment invalidates Kirsh’s entire review for me. I almost was persuaded to read the book based on the review.  Because he got mixed up on the year of Hubbard’s death, Kirsh credibility is really shot.  Thank you, Yiftach,

Comment by John Hindsill on 7/19/11 at 10:49 am

Commenting is not available in this section entry.