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The lie happens right here - “in Warsaw the Nazi’s surrounded Warsaw, concentrated Jews in Warsaw, wouldn’t let anyone in, wouldn’t let anyone out, wouldn’t let supplies in, wouldn’t let supplies out; as a result there was famine and disease and so forth ...exactly and precisely what the Israeli’s are doing in Gaza.”

No, Professor Dummy, it is neither exactly or precisely. Israel is actually both allowing and supplying food and fuel and medicine into Gaza, as much and as often as it can.

But the real lie happens when we realize that Israel should not be doing any of that for Gaza anyway. That was the whole idea of Sharon’s ‘Disengagement’. Gaza shares a long border with Egypt, and it is Egypt that should be supplying Gaza with food, fuel, medicine, jobs, medical treatment and all that stuff, if they gave a damn that is which they don’t. The professor of course is following the anti-Israel party line in overlooking that.

It is analogous to the Cubans crying ‘embargo’ when they trade with every other country in the world, and specifically in the Western Hemisphere except for the USA.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/01/09 at 12:26 am

Writing in support UC Santa Barbara sociologist Professor Robinson who sent images from the Holocaust comparing those from Israel’s attack on Gaza to the students of his class and is now the subject of a witch hunt at UCSB.

Because I am a Jew, grand-daughter of a survivor of Bergen-Belsen, with 150-200 of my extended Dutch family members killed in the camps, I too sent out a similar (if not the identical) visual comparison graphic images of Jews in the Holocaust to pictures of Palestinians caught up in Israel’s recent Gaza offensive, to friends, family, and colleagues. I sent it because I was so disturbed and ashamed by the Israeli assault on Gaza in the name of Jewish people.

I learned about the plight and the pain of the displaced Palestinian people from my survivor grandfather Henri van Leeuwen, a deeply religious Orthodox Jew, who was firmly committed in words and deeds, to maintaining a distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism until his dying day. If he was still alive today, he would be horrified by UCSB’s actions against Professor Robinson and even more horrified by Israel’s reenactment of the Warsaw Ghetto on the people of Gaza.

Karen Pomer
Los Angeles, CA

Comment by Karen Pomer on 5/01/09 at 3:05 pm

It is unfortunate that your grandfather is no longer with us, as I could set him straight in a jiffy. It is not possible that he was an Orthodox Jew and yet oppose core Jewish principles involving the Jewish homeland. While we may take comfort that the punishment for his personal errors have likely been resolved, you should be aware that your actions in support of the mortal enemies of Israel are undoubtedly causing him unfathomable anguish in the post-corporeal existence we call the World of Truth.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/01/09 at 7:14 pm

I agree with you Ben,whole heartedly. Too many American Jews criticising the Israelis.  They live in the comfort of their homes, not waiting for the next rocket to fall as do some Israelis. Karen needs to go to Sderot and see what they think of the Gazans. And then commeny.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/03/09 at 2:12 am

The truth is that if there was anyone ever dumb enough to ‘maintain a distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism”, there is no one that dumb today, only evil.

The real bottom line is that there is no ‘displaced Palestinian people’. There are only Arabs who swarmed into Palestine illegally as soon as the Jews had made it worth stealing (again), and moved aside when the Arabs surrounding Israel asked them to clear the way to annihilate the Jews (again). I just quoted this on another thread:
Zuhair Mohsen (late Military Department head
of the PLO and member of its Executive
Council) in Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.“

From the same interview:
“Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel ...”

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/03/09 at 2:48 am

It’s possible that Karen did not write the comment attributed to her. Follow the link.  Anyone could have cut and pasted her supposed comments. Could be pure agitprop…

Karen: If you’re out there come on back for an education.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/03/09 at 5:59 am

I followed the link and it is a form letter by one of the ‘Indymedia’ groups, which means it is agitprop to begin with. It states that those paragraphs were added by her to the end of the form letter. It makes no difference if Karen is a real person or even if she thinks it is true. The information as presented is twisted and contradictory on the face of it. Jews who feel it is a good deed to oppose the restoration of Jews to their homeland are like black soldiers for the Confederacy (and there were thousands of them).

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/03/09 at 8:25 am

Ben:  Remember the black frocked men with hats and beards hobnobbing with Achmadinajad? The non believers of the State of Israel. Turned my stomache; I can’t say it in many words but an Arab Palestine is like inviting a murderer into your home. It’s there in black and white. The American government and the American “Peacenicks” may prevail in getting the two state solution. And that my friend will make the Arabs happy and the Israeli Jews buying weapons to defend   their lives. I predict an Israeli Bond drive to buy arms for it’s citizens to repel the massive Arab hordes.
Things haven’t changed much since 1948 as far as the Arabs wanting the Jews out.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/03/09 at 9:12 am

Things haven’t changed that much since 632 A.D. as far as the foreign invader Arabs wanting the Jews out. To hell with them then and to hell with them in 1918 and 1929 and 1936 and 1948.

I remember the black-frocked men hobnobbing with Ahmedinejad. They make a terrible appearance but they are just a sideshow. They are a fringe group that gets funding from Israel’s enemies; who do you think developed a website for them and buys them plane tickets to hobnob with? Less reported is that all the other black-frocked men have publicly renounced and rejected them, to the point of punching them out.

Their origin is different, but their destination is the same as the lunatic left Jewish self-haters. Those people originated as a reaction to the arrogance of antireligious elements who took over the Zionists movement, which is a sad but predictable outcome. The first dozen or so hotheads a few decades ago merely protested the state as originated and constituted, and did not deny the status of the land as Jewish in essence and destiny. The religious point being that the land really belongs to God, and in the absence of actual prophetic guidance people should not intervene in history. That is a minority conclusion but it is a principled opposition. The current few dozen of them have crossed a line in allying themselves with the enemies of the Jewish people which is evil.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/03/09 at 9:48 am

Sorry, forgot to close the ‘bold’ after the first paragraph

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/03/09 at 9:50 am

Well said Bennie.  I hope your words enlighten some of the readers for they are well said, meaningful and should not be taken lightly. We have met the enemy and they are us. What you say in public reflects upon all your bretheren.  You see one drunken Indian and all Indians are drunks.  All the Jews are wealthy.  That’s how people react and the example shown of the black frocked Jews etc.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/03/09 at 7:37 pm

I quote another poster:
“Their origin is different, but their destination is the same as the lunatic left Jewish self-haters.”

What a sorry state Judaism is in when pro-Zionist Jews need to launch pathetic personal attacks on those Jews who disagree with them.  I have seen so many variations of this kind of irrational response over the years. Instead of indulging in ad hominem attacks, fingerpointing and other such devices how about accepting that we disagree and debate the facts instead of these rather despicable attacks.

Comment by Larry Saltzman on 5/03/09 at 10:41 pm

The spiratual descendants of the erev rav need to be rebuked in every generation.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/03/09 at 10:55 pm

I have one little bit of advice:  If I disagree with you
I would rather do so in a closed room. The world doesn’t need to see Jews fighting each other.  Zionists had a dream that came true.  Grant them that.  By producing a country, Hezl would have been proud had he been around. The people that live in Israel don’t need outside people (Especially Jews) to tell them right or wrong.  They live “Under the gun” and the outsiders don’t.  The fervent religionists won’t fight.  How many of them went into the overns?  They don’t want a State due to religious convictions. First comes life and then you can play around with religion. The doctor’s creed reads “Do no harm” and the “Peacenicks” need to do the same.  That’s easy.  If you do no good, then do no harm and your “Pity the Arabs” does harm to your own people.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/04/09 at 12:30 am

Excuse you, Larry Saltzman. Pathetic personal attacks! I am shocked ... shocked! Here is where we get the phony concern for exaggerated courtesies and tolerance. The time for you to show up was a century ago when the people under discussion were demonizing the mass of ordinary people just trying to make a good life. And the time for you to show up was when Noam Chomsky and Norman Finklstein and Israel Shahak first started biting regular Jews on the leg for not joining them giving free blow jobs to the Arabs and diving into burning ghettos.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/04/09 at 7:38 am

Pat on the back Benny. Sic em tiger.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/04/09 at 10:05 am

This article contains at least one glaring factual error. It is simply false that “he did speak with Doug Henwood of the liberal Counterpunch.” Mr Henwood has no affiliation with Counterpunch although it is true that Mr Robinson was interviewed on Mr Henwood’s radio program.

How can I be assured that the other claims in this article are factually correct, when simple fact-checking has obviously not been done?

Comment by anon on 5/04/09 at 2:45 pm

That one was for you, sam.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/04/09 at 5:54 pm

The problem here is that people are angry over something a professor is not endorsing, but simply conveying to students.  As a UCSB student who is familiar with Professor Robinson, I can tell you that it’s quite disgusting that people are making such a big deal about this.  What ever happened to professors rights to convey all different opinions and viewpoints?  Luckily people here at UCSB are laughing at the absurdity of this, and professor Robinson is still teaching as if nothing happened.  What’s amazing is that you find stuff like this in almost all of our Sociology classes here.  Let’s all calm down people, and realize that students here are grown-ups and we can handle controversial information.  It’s not like Professor Robinson was writing for Seseme Street or something… -_-

Comment by Kristie O'Quinn on 5/04/09 at 7:52 pm

Can we agree not to play dumb? The state of education is pretty poor when a university student (let alone a professor) can read so uncritically as to accept a statement like “I didn’t endorse it but ... I said that Gaza is Israel’s Warsaw ... because in Warsaw the Nazi’s surrounded Warsaw ... concentrated Jews etc. ... as a result there was famine and disease and so forth ... exactly and precisely what the Israeli’s are doing in Gaza.”

The right of professors to convey all different opinions and viewpoints died even long before the denial of their right to convey (even without endorsing) Intelligent Design as an alternative to Moronic Absence of Design to account for the obvious existence of an ancient and naturally occurring physical and biological technology countless years beyond our current state of knowledge. The reason given is the that Intelligent Design has been proven false and redundant (it hasn’t) and so educational professionals are committing a form of malpractice by conveying it to students (even without endorsing it). Surely grown-up students can handle controversial information?

Well, we are saying that by lying and misleading students and presenting information that has been proven false Robinson is committing educational malpractice. Whether or not we say it with anger is irrelevant, although since this is a life-and-death matter anger would be understandable. Teaching is like journalism; there are standards of professionalism that involve truthfulness.

And before handling grown-up controversial information, maybe you can learn how to spell ‘Sesame Street’.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/04/09 at 8:49 pm

Kristie: O’Quinn isn’t the same as O’Cohen. For further enlightenment on the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza you need to read Uris’s Mila 18.  Then you can compare the two situations. What the professor did was a stupid mistake because he defames his own people but then, he’s not an Israeli.  People have a right in America to have Nazi marches, etc. Ben is more prolific in saying his piece so I defer to him.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/04/09 at 11:41 pm

If Robinson sent mass email in favor of Prop 8 to his students, what would have been the response, hmmmmmmm?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 4:56 am

sam
Coocoo ka-choo Mr. Robinson does not care about defaming his people because his people are not the Jews, they are the celebrity radicals. In America he has the right, and so do the Jews to organize and bust him. So do the students and tuition-paying parents and taxpaying citizens. Then, this being America, he will have the right to speak, march, publish and email whatever he wants. Privately and personally.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/05/09 at 7:00 am

Nice, Alice. But Rabinowizc Robinson sent graphic images. Let’s suppose Robinson sent graphic images of Israeli women and children missing limbs and eyes and faces, of Israeli cars machine-gunned and Israeli school buses after hits by anti-tank weapons, along with readily available clips of mass marches of raving bestial lunatics with machine guns and anti-tank rockets in Gaza ? Inappropriate, right?

How about graphic images of aborted fetuses and clubbed and skinned baby seals? Hey, I might do that. OK, how about…

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/05/09 at 7:22 am

Ben:

Is Rabinowize this guy’s real name?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 9:13 am

Where have all the trolls gone and how do we get rid of this bold type?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 9:24 am

Probably not; just making the point that it isn’t really originally Robinson, going back. A further point is that changing one’s name to a Protestant one in past times has some statistical correlation to supporting Israel’s enemies; I don’t know how strong. These days, ‘Finklestein’ is the new ‘Robinson’ but that’s part of the New Jew movement.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/05/09 at 9:28 am

The trolls are all over on the other thread. The ‘bold’ was due to me; I started a ‘bold’ but had a typo in the closing. It could be fixed with a little housekeeping by someone with the ability to edit the original mistake. I tried to fix it in the next post, this sometimes works. On the other hand, I think it is a bug in the software not to close formatting codes at the conclusion of every post.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/05/09 at 10:01 am

RE: Rabinowize. Hook, line and…  I was thinking of Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz aka Jon Stewart when I read your post. Robinson’s mum must have been Jewish, whot? And, what about a pro Prop 8 emailing with side-by-side pictures of the Folsom Street Fair and Hieronymus Bosch paintings - one triptych per gay, lesbian, bi pic?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 10:14 am

I like the BOLD because I don’t have to sit too close to the screen however I ‘ll stick with the format. I believe that some of the people reading this don’t really know about the Warsaw ghetto and so I mentioned “Mila 18.” This book isn’t just about the Nazis surrounding people (A La Gaza) but also of famine, typhus and poison gas in the sewers. This is the difference.  In one instance the Nazis wanted all the people dead and in Gaza, the people were pawns.  That’s the difference. The Armenians are still battling the Turks about genocide an incident which happened nearly a hundred years ago and the Holocaust was genocide on a much larger scale. Now a stupid man equates Gaza and Warsaw. For the Gentile reader ask a Jewish friend the meaning of a “Putz.”

Comment by sam corwin on 5/05/09 at 7:45 pm

If the Israelis wanted to commit genocide they could finish it in 48 hours. Why don’t they do that, Celebrity-Radical-Wannabe Robinson?

When the ‘Kingdom of East Israel East Palestine Jordan needed to defeat the so-called Palestinian Arabs, they killed 20,000 of them in a couple of days. Israel hasn’t killed half that many of them in sixty-one years. Maybe Israel is just the ‘Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight’. When America wanted to control Afghanistan and Iraq they carpet-bombed first and asked questions later.

The fact that Israel uses ground troops with tweezers and magnifying glasses to delicately de-louse terrorist-infested civilian areas among human shields and booby traps is why things take so long and Israel sustains so many casualties. Jenin, Lebabon, Bint Jebail, always the same crap. The Israeli Armed Forces Chief of Staff should win a Nobel Peace Prize for the Gaza campaign, for the most ethical and compassionate use of armed force in the history of he world conflicts. 

They could have won in Lebanon in forty-eight hours if they were willing to announce a window for every man, woman and rocket launcher to skedaddle north of the border and then turn Bint Jebail and the like into mulch. Instead, they were all kidding that Israel was doing the Hokey-Pokey - ‘You put your ground troops in; You take your ground troops out; You put your ground troops in; Then you shake them all about… “. The ‘intifada’ had mutated so that Gaza was all set up with tunnels and booby traps and all that, using lessons from Jenin and Bint Jebail.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/06/09 at 5:46 am

Great concept, Alice. I thought of graphic images of gay couples alongside images of gay animals, but there are no gay animals. You solved the problem.

Let’s go, Kristie O’Quinn. The point is made. Any thoughts on academic freedom or do we strain a brain cell or two to use some judgment?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/06/09 at 5:54 am

Ben:

You’re not bold anymore!

And, Kristie:

I want to just convey that your Willie boy is a putz. I’m not endorsing that position, now - I’m conveying it. 

And, dear child, if you can keep a straight (no pun intended) face and tell me that Robinson would NOT have been pilloried if he had done the Folsom Street, Bosch thing…  At any rate, your boy is probably going to get a slap on the wrist for sending materials not associated with the curriculum. Too bad, too because the moron should be forced to work with the Zaka squads for a while.  He would just have to clean up the homicide bomber parts, of course, since he has such an affinity for barbarians.

But, let me release my animosity… Hmmmm… Hmmmm… Good! Perhaps we can approach this in a different way, and you will get extra credit, too!  Why don’t you email these videos to all of your Muslim friends and ask them why Mohammadens are taught to hold such hatred for Jews. Tell them “gee whiz”, you thought that the enmity just began in 1967 or was it 1948?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2042.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2058.htm

Go on now and just convey them along.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/06/09 at 7:39 am

(‘You’re not bold anymore’ hurt my feelings in the e-mail until I saw it in context; I hammered on the ‘close bold’ code.)

How about emailing this
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/videos/108/the-violent-oppression-of-women-in-islam/

X-rated, but not for sekshual content. A word to the wise; not after dinner.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/07/09 at 12:04 am

For those who support the right of profs to say anything controversial, how come we never hear any profs say “America or Israel are very good for the world.” It is highly unlikely you will hear such “unorthodox” comments from any social science or humanities prof in America. I challenge just one of the intolerant leftist profs who populate the UCSB sociology dept. to say anything so provocative….  Case closed.

Comment by Howard Waldow on 5/08/09 at 1:53 am

You do hear them say it. You just don’t hear about them saying it. When they say it they are ignored, banned, boycotted and shunned by the cowardly mob of sheep that are the academic establishments.

Here are some (not much of a budget without Saudi and leftist funding); one of them is the Prime Minister’s brother. There is a good document archive and links here http://www.professors.org.il/

I read several others as well.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/08/09 at 7:28 am

Ben:

We live in truly Orwellian times. Prior to 1967 and most assuredly prior to 1948 the appellation “Palestinian” referred exclusively to Jews. Arabs eschewed the reference because they unanimously identified themselves as residents of Greater Syria (or Southern Syria) or ‘Bilad Al Sham’. Then cometh 1984 - literally:  Arabs morphed into Palestinians who wring their hands and wail over their “ancient homeland” and whose raison d’être is to make Judea judenrein.  This is stunning.  Now, Jews whose very name is derived from the proper term for the land must surrender it to those who until only recently called themselves Syrians. The absolute master of “doublethink”, the Arab Muslim buttressed by Jewish mind rot, judenrot, (a figurative term from Judenräte) has taken control of the “Ministry of Truth”. Robinson is quintessential judenrot.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/08/09 at 10:43 am

this is so amusing listening to you Israel appologists. You have be pretty ignorant or live in a bubble not to realize Israel is a terrorist state funded by the US. The #1 welfare recipiant of weapons, Israel continues to terrorize Palestine under the guise of self defense. It’s sickening to hear Israel try to justify their actions, especially considering what survivors had to endure during the Holocaust. To me Israel’s actions are no better than those that took place during that era.

Comment by Joe on 5/08/09 at 1:48 pm

That’s because you are a moron, Joe. Didn’t you read any of the posts and links I and others provided above? You are obviously one of the irresponsible sheep that the professor is targeting in distributing his propaganda. People like him count on people like you not having the brains to learn the facts or the guts to resist joining the mob. The USA has made a profit on everything they have ever given Israel, and a loss on everything they have ever given to the Arabs. Better buy a prayer rug and start practicing your Arabic.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/09/09 at 10:50 pm

Unfortunately Ben, there are too many Joe’s and Janes, and Cuthberts and Francoise that believe as he does.  We (The world Jewry) will always hear this shit by idiots that spout it. And the Moishe’s too.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/10/09 at 12:53 am

you mean to tell me that believeing in human rights is moronic. get clue. maybe the world shouldn’t have given a $hit about jews during the holocaust based on your logic. i don’t have to read your posts or follow your links to know that this comes down to basic human rights and Israel violates them at any chance they get. i’m a sheep, huh? the funny thing is though,  i’m in the minority when it comes to Israel’s actions. the US and the majority of it’s sheep, such as yourself are apologists for Israel. this is still amusing though, because at the end of the day the professor accomplished what he set out to do. make people think outside their bubbles and to agitate people like you into posting on these sites at the rate you have.

Comment by Joe on 5/12/09 at 12:53 pm

You see, Joe, if you had a clue, you ignoramus, you’d understand that “...the world…” didn’t give “...a $hit about jews [sic] during the holocaust…” and “...the world…” doesn’t give “...a $hit about jews [sic]...” any more today that it did then. The only difference is that Jews are fully able to defend themselves today and they do it very well indeed - that’s what really enrages the anti-Jew.  If you had a clue, you’d understand that you’re being played, hook, line and sinker, by fashionable Jew haters like Robinson and the modern counterparts of the last century’s “useful idiots”, the taqqiyah snorters.  Yep, a hookah, line and shebang don’t-annoy-me-with-the-facts dhemmi lumpen.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/12/09 at 5:57 pm

Joe:
Human rights in it’s very basic form is “Don’t shit in my yard and I won’t respond.”  Let me earn a living to help my family exist.  Then you have the “Agitators or the politicians” that say ” Why eat brown bread when I can give you a toaster and white bread. To sweeten the deal, here’s marmalade.  All you have to do is follow me
and I’ll talk for you.  I will give you manna and what followed was Gaza.  Before human rights, comes self preservation.  That means be wary of suicide bombers, duck incoming rockets.  People have a right to live.  Don’t try to kill them with Human Rights bullshit. And these learned men never got their hands dirty with physical labor.  Jewish WASPS.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/12/09 at 7:39 pm

first of all let me start with shalom to both of you, sam and alice. if i may assume that you both are jewish, it just reinforces the hate that is at the root of this whole problem. it’s troubleing to know that the jewish faith has such vile people among it’s ranks, yet i’m not surprised considering what Israel does to palestinians on a regular basis. and please stop the f*cking whineing already about the world didn’t give a $hit and doesn’t give a $hit about jews. get over it already. and this whole self preservation idea is a crock of $shit as well. we all know that the only reason Israel still exists is because of the welfare it get from the US. so Israel wants to be the bully in the region. also Israel is the same as the US. stop oppressing people around the world and others won’t retaliate.
so stop crying over a few deaths when thousands of Palestinians die every time Israel bombs with total disregard for women and children. again no better than what the US does all over the world. stop playing the victim role and open your eyes to reality.

Comment by Joe on 5/13/09 at 5:41 pm

The reality Joe is that it’s people like you are blind to reality.  Were you Jewish, you might have a different outlook.  You are from the outside trying to look in.  We are on the inside, peer out and dont like what we see.  What we see are the people trying to keep us in. Shalom cuts all ways, Jew or Gentile and we do have vile people in our ranks as you do in yours.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/13/09 at 7:47 pm

Further Joe: The “Military money” that comes from the US is more like paying a security service to protect your interest.  Israel is the forward bastion of the American need to protect the oil rich countries other than Iran. There’s no free lunch here.  Would you use a “Security” service to protect your family?

Comment by sam corwin on 5/14/09 at 12:40 am

joe, or is it Mohamed?  you are the one who is whining.  Israel has a right to defend its people from attack.  there are no Palestinias—they are arabs.  Let’s see them build and create something, other than bombs.  then I might feel sorry for them.  The US and Israel were built on the backs of hard work, and creativity—not whining.

Comment by concerned parent on 5/14/09 at 2:18 am

I think it’s a Joe because I hear this same pitch about the Americans supporting Israel.  That’s a point of view that is prevalant and needs to be answered. The Iranians are fortifying the Straits of Hormus Joe and the Americans will sacrifice the Israelis to keep the oil shipping lanes open or are the Americans shipping military aid to defend Israel?  To get back to the professor, he remains a putz.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/14/09 at 3:53 am

i don’t have to be jewish to understand right from wrong. yeah, yeah, right to defend, not Palestinians, blah, blah. thats the same tired arguement the US uses for it’s blockade on Cuba. Seriously what harm could Cuba do to the US. the same could be said of Palestinians over Israel. please, right to defend itself?
don’t get me wrong sam, i am in no way excuseing the US from it’s culpability in this situation at all. the thing is don’t oppress people and you have nothing to worry about. you oppress people long enough and eventually they will get tired and retaliate. and then they become terrorists? please.
the US has been oppressing and exploiting people around the world and then we have the audacity to cry about it when they retaliate against us. the self defense arguement is a weak arguement.
the US will never sell out Israel because the jewish lobbyists are too strong here.
the bottom line is that this is a great discussion without the name slinging. and thats what the Professor wanted to do, create dialogue. we may never agree and that’s fine. however, i personally now have a better understanding of where you’re coming from. for this is more than politics or religion or race or even faith. it’s about human right. the right to gignity. this will never end en as long as BOTH sides continue on their same path.

Comment by Joe on 5/14/09 at 1:16 pm

The professor’s intent was to influence his students—clearly an abuse of power, not to start a dialogue. Happens all over campuses in the US.  It is wrong and needs to stop.

Comment by concerned parent on 5/15/09 at 12:04 am

Hey Joe: You aint gonna solve the US problems and neither am I and that goes for any national stuff.  The US is by far not an angelic society.  We’ve screwed countries all over the world as well as the remaining civilized countries.  The professor was wrong because of his half assed opinion.  That’s a different story than yours.  Half a side of a story isn’t being honest. Read the whole issue and then comment.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/15/09 at 12:38 am

There is a confusion in this discussion regarding human rights, civil rights and national rights. Human rights apply to individuals, civil rights to citizens in relation to a government, and national rights to a nation as a whole. Arabs including the so-called Palestinians can have human rights or not any day of the week without involving Israel. They can also have civil rights in relation to their government of choice. What they cannot have is a national right on the territory of another national right, in this case the Jewish one. And if you ask what makes one more legitimate than the other, I will say that the Jewish one is thirty eight centuries old, and the Palestinian one is thirty eight years old.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/15/09 at 1:49 am

Nuh Bennie? You think you got your point across?  I learned a lot from your remarks.  I think you made your points well and everyone is happy. I hope the professor got his ass kicked good and we move on.  Nothing more is gonna happen.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/15/09 at 4:53 am

Not some people. Israel’s enemies go by ‘if you can’t convince ‘em, confuse ‘em’. Anyone who has trouble with the definition of ‘genocide’, ‘extermination’, ‘defense’, terrorism’ and ‘martyr’ is going to have trouble with ‘human rights’ as well.

But what I am talking about is Moshe Feiglin’s solution to the Arab Occupation of the Jewish West Bank. Some people want to evict them and others to encourage them to move out with eminent domain and compensation. Of course any Arabs squatting on land with a definition title can be evicted but Feiglin wants to formalize their status by guaranteeing their human rights but not their civil rights, meaning they can’t simply vote and change the Israeli government policy or the status of Israeli land.

What I say is that the labor Zionist theory of making Israel a normal secular democracy is what led to this problem.

That is why only the Arab liberals are talking about a ‘two-state solution’. What they really want is a right of return and a one state solution, meaning Israel should be flooded with five million enemies with a right to vote (civil rights) and they will immediately change the name of Israel, the constitution, the flag, the Hatikva, the schools and everything else. Just like is happening in Europe.

That is why the internal enemies of Israel including the leftist Jews are doing everything they can to remove he Jewish character of the state and the country, including the army, to prepare the way for this kind of one-way diversity. If Israel is not Jewish, that’s why they can call anyone who wants a Jewish state a racist and a fascist and a Nazi. That’s also why it is good for them to have confusion about Jewish identity. That’s why they always block the definition of a Jew as by Jewish law. That’s why they also promote this voodoo definition of a new Palestinian people and nation, to create a new thing that they fool people into thinking competes with the Jewish one. This was predicted in Deuteronomy but never mind that for now,

Israel has to be what it was originally, which is a global reservation for the Jewish people just like the Navajo or Mohawk reservation. Do you think that anyone would be allowed to build condos on the Mohawk reservation and the new residents allowed to outvote the Mohawks on their own land? Of course not. Israel should have democracy (civil rights) for its citizens, but the citizens must qualify by Jewish national right.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/15/09 at 6:17 am

So Bennie, I shake my head and wonder what you really said. Labor Zionist theory caused this?  Horsesht. Agitators from all sides caused this. You take away leaders and you have chaos.  Democracy in many instances doesnt work.  Do you think a military organization is democratic? A good unit functions as “One” with all ranks working together but it’s not democratic. A Private can’t tell his sergeant that he’s wrong in his orders. If you can get everyone working together regardless of rank (In this case religion, color etc) you have a good working solution to the Palestinian problem.A sergeant doesn’t ask a private to do something, he tells him (Orders) and that’s it. The arabs need strong leadership which they don’t have.  What they do have is a common goal to get rid of the Jews. The Jewish ultras want to get rid of the arabs. So, whaddaya have? Chaos.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/15/09 at 7:45 pm

Sorry, sam, we have been all over this on the forum. You’re not thinking. Let’s use our heads here.

Israel is losing everywhere. Politically, militarily, diplomatically, socially. Why is that? I’ll give you a hint, it’s not because of what the Arabs are doing right in those respects. But they do have a common goal of getting rid of the Jews. They are focussed, they are consistent, they are clear about it, and they are rooted in tradition and religion. If they did have a better leadership it would either be assassinated or it would help them destroy Israel quicker.

On the other hand, Israel has a much stronger political leadership than the Arabs do. But that leadership is the opposite of the Arabs. It is not focussed, inconsistent, unclear, and despises tradition and religion. therefore it is not respected. The program of the Left is to give stuff away to the Arabs. The program of the Right is to talk tough and back down. There is no real Right in Israel anymore except for political amateurs who keep getting marginalized. Nobody in the US or Europe or the Middle East is going to respect an Israel that doesn’t respect itself.

Now why is this the fault of Labor Zionism? Real Zionism starts and ends with the idea of Israel as the Jewish State. The details are not important. After that, you wanna be a socialist, fine. Live on a kibbutz? Fine. Blow spit bubbles? Fine.

But Labor Zionism is at heart secular socialism, which idealizes the universal brotherhood of humanity and the abolition of national boundaries. Meaning they don’t believe in Judaism and they don’t believe in states either. It is a contradiction for Labor Zionists to push for a Jewish state when they can’t say why it should not be an Arab state as well. Or a majority state of whoever manages to move in, like America. The Labor Zionists were in charge of the Jewish Agency which is what they had before the State of Israel was proclaimed in 1948. When they gave up their land and rights to the British and the Arabs, they also suppressed Begin and Jabotinsky who objected to their caving in.

All the old Labor Zionists are not Zionists anymore. Rabin finally killed them off by recognizing an Arab right to a state on Jewish land. The right answer to Arab demands for land and rights and return and a non-Jewish Israel is ‘Bite me’, not ‘Maybe you have a point’.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/17/09 at 1:06 am

To Sam, labor Zionist theory did not cause the mess we are in.  Anti=Semitism is the cause.  the reason the Arabs hate and refuse to recognize the right of Jews to exist.  The secularists and the liberal american jewish exacebate the problems, but the root is hatred of the Jews.

Comment by concerned parent on 5/17/09 at 1:28 am

I get that. Sam is saying that if we have a unified and disciplined leadership and people we would be OK. The question is, who should that leadership be and what will they say when they get there? But all the Labor Zionists are gone now. All we have are ‘Post-Zionists’. The Labor Party is in favor of a ‘two-state’ solution. Kadima is in favor of a ‘Two-state solution. The religious parties have given up and circled the wagons. The Likud Party is not in favor but will not oppose it when it comes down to it.

You can call names all you want but you cannot defeat antisemitism except by making their goals unimaginable. This is not a game, it is life and death. Israel has made all of the goals of the antisemites imaginable. if they got away with hamas and Hezbollah, they will get away with Iran.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/17/09 at 1:58 am

you are right (and my bad typing is really embarrassing!) If you can’t define Anti-semitism, how can you defeat it?  You also can’t make peace with someone who wants to kill you—so where does that leave us?  We fight every battle we can, whereever we can.  please support StandwithUs by signing the petition and fighting anti-semitism on the UC campuses.  UCI and Berkley are worse. http://standwithus.com/rup/ucsb.asp?tab=0

Comment by concerned parent on 5/17/09 at 2:10 am

I may be in this way over my head but look at it this way:Wanna shut down Israel on the Sabbath?  The whole country?  Cant do it and still function.  That is the religious extreme.  Akin to Sharia law.  You can’t have a one religious party run the country. So, you take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and try to live in peace. And lets face it, the two state solution wont work.  The Trojan horse in modern time.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/17/09 at 4:53 am

Can you please be realistic? The religious Jews of Israel are not in charge and have never been in charge. Therefore, if Israel has problems and enemies it is not because Jews observe the Sabbath (it might be because Jews don’t observe the Sabbath, but let’s not get into that here).

Jews are defined as a both nation and a religion together (not a race), and antisemites want us all dead. Now is the time for all the bright boys out there to jump in and call me simplistic and a hater and so forth. so here is some background.

The Jews in Palestine before the modern Zionists were all religious, first because there were no nonreligious Jews and then because the non-religious Jews wanted to assimilate and give up their Jewish national identity, as a way to try to solve antisemitism(at least for them). They thought that non-Jews hated them because they had loyalty to their own nation and not their host countries. They were partially right about that. Israel was an embarrassment to them (and still is, you notice). Religious Jews on the other hand had the motivation to move over the last twenty centuries to the dangerous dump that Palestine was under foreign occupation.

The more recent political Zionists operated on the idea that the long exile had made the Jews abnormal and that is what caused antisemitism. They were partially right about that too. They realized that giving up the Jewish national identity was not such a hot idea, and used it to try to solve antisemitism by becoming a normal nation, but without that Sharia-like Sabbath observance stuff.

So some said, “We gave up our country; what the hell else do you want?” The others say, “We gave up our religion; what the hell else do you want?” Hitler came along and said “We want to eliminate you from the human race”. Bummer! No way to change your genes.

The descendants of both of those movements are no longer religious and no longer nationalistic, i.e no longer Jews, and antisemitism is still around. The experiments didn’t work. Jews without a nation are not very interested in religion, and Jews without religion are not very interested in a nation. The ones who are left can say ‘I told you so’, but the point has been proven. And the religious Zionists are the only ones to offer hope, and the others are doing all they can to squash them. Drag them out of Gaza, the West Bank etc. Keep it up and the UN will be dragging Jews out of Jerusalem.

So back to what I said in the beginning: Jews are defined as a both nation and a religion together (not a race), and antisemites want us all dead.

Do you think the Arabs or the Nazis or the Pat Buchanan’s care about Sabbath observance? They want to eliminate us. The Jewish people is eternal, but we personally only have one little lifetime at bat to keep it going. We have no time for the antisemites to love us. C’est la vie.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/17/09 at 6:46 am

Only people can cure the disease called “Anti-Semitism.  Herzl thought that by having their own country, the Jews would have a country to go to and be proud of it.  That was a tremendous step in the battle against anti-semitism. You have a country and you still have the scourge.  No change but a change will only come in small increments and we wont see any major changes in our lifetime. Bennie, I agree with you.  We are doomed unless we fight back and that might mean being nicer to people first as an individual and then as a Jew.  Like me as a person then like me as a Jew. That doesn’t mean kissing someones as.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/17/09 at 7:36 pm

Sam, that is a very nice thought, but it didn’t work for the European, especially the German Jews, because in the end we are all Jews to them & it really doesn’t matter whether they like us individually or not.  collectively they hate us.  fighting back is not being nicer, it is holding our ground and commanding respect and a little fear.  that is the only thing arabs understand.  being nice will have them slitting our throats, the minute our back is turned.  If you knew anything about arabic culture, you would understand this.  Arabs killed and harrassed the jews in Israel long before 1948.  It’s not about land.

Comment by concerned parent on 5/17/09 at 10:26 pm

Parent: How can I argue with you when you’re right. Let me give you an example of the why of anti-semitism. I live in Thailand where for years the Muslems have been killing the Buddhists. This is ongoing. If you were to ask a Muslem down there if he ever saw a Jew or knew what one looked like, the answer would be no. And they read/practice the Koran as the arabs etc.  So I say that anti semitism is learned/taught and impressed upon the children of the haters.  The great Henry Ford believed in the book “Elders of Zion” and no Jews ever worked for Ford, AT&T and most banks. A lot of Americans learned of anti semitism when Laura Hobson’s book “Gentleman’s agrreement” was made in to a movie.  Now that’s probably too long ago for the younger readers. Earlier on, I suggested Joe to read Mila 18 and the schmuck professor should have done the same before his E mail stunt. One thing more.  During the 1948 Israeli war, many gentiles fought with us, so you can see that being nice helps. Not everyone is good and not everyone is bad.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/17/09 at 11:16 pm

RE: “It’s not about land”

I have posted these links before to support the quote above and to attempt to educate sundry trolls. The responses (from the trolls) range from ignoring them (because they clashes with their worldview) or to likening them to fundamentalist Christianity (because all fundamentalists are evil) or labeling me as a hate monger (because exposing Mohammedanism for what it is clearly is fosters hate). I’m sure that you know the drill.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2042.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2058.htm

The following is very recent and debunks any lingering belief any reasonable person may have in the “moderate” PLO/Fatah.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2109.htm

At any rate I would claim that the PA exists only because of the protection of the IDF. A withdrawal from Judea and Samaria would almost certainly lead to a Hamas takeover. 

And, Sam, I had pleasure of working in Thailand (in the last century) at Udorn, Ubon, Phitsanulok and Mukdaharn for a bit more than three years.  I understand the situation in the South and have been following it via the Bangkok Post.  These Mohammedans are the single major source of violence throughout the world today. It is axiomatic that when they are not engaging the kafir, they are purging their own ranks of those less pious. My best to you in Muang Thai.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/18/09 at 12:28 am

true, being nice is good, but being strong and prepared maybe better.  There were gentiles that helped the jews in europe and there were some that helped in 1948, but proportionately it was negligent.  Obviously, saving one life is not negligent, but there should have been way more.  please sign the petition to deal with the schmuck professor and pass it on. the arab students and professors are holding a rally on the 21st to protect his “freedom to spread hate”

http://standwithus.com/rup/ucsb.asp?tab=0

Comment by concerned parent on 5/18/09 at 11:35 pm

First line, true. Second line about the people in europe
helping “Diminishes” the fact that harboring a Jew meant death to the family of the protectors.  Don’t “Poo Poo” that fact.  Petitions stink and yours is no better.  You can sign my name to your petition for all the good it will do.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/18/09 at 11:58 pm

ok sam, now who is not being nice. you could sign my stinking petition and support standwithus and all the jewish kids on campuses across the US who are trying to battle the arab, anti-israel, anti-jewish proganda.  every little bit helps.

Comment by concerned parent on 5/19/09 at 12:37 am

I’m nice, I’m nice.  I just don’t believe in petitions and I don’t know the best way to handle the propaganda. I was talking to a retired Navy Seal this morning and I said that millions of people read and see/hear about all the money that the US puts into Israel and that fact is true. I told that to joe earlier. But the truth goes on further that the reason for all the money is a forward base for America and it’s military and we both laughed because that statement is true and he knew it.  That’s how you fight, by telling the whole truth. Then you have the millions of dollars that went to the Palestinian Authority which didn’t much help the poor arabs but enriched the politicians.  Ask the “Poor arabs” about Mrs Arafat and the millions of dollars that she has stashed away.  Why didn’t that money trickle down and help the people?  And the Government is still corrupt.  That’s better than a petition.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/19/09 at 5:04 am

You’re okay Alice. Thailand has changed since you were last here. Even the tourists are abandoning “Sin City”, Pattaya. I’m gonna swing over to the Forum to raise hell.  New topic.

Comment by sam corwin on 5/20/09 at 1:28 am

Do you have any voice recorded version of the interview?

Comment by Group B Strep on 8/06/09 at 11:08 am

Group B: Nope, sorry

Comment by sam corwin on 8/06/09 at 7:42 pm

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