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Freedom in general is something to be earned at the price of vigilance against its abuse. Academic freedom in particular must be earned at the price of a commitment to truth and justice. Those Nazis had universities and professors and students and professionals too, and those universities and professors and students and professionals were the very first to throw their Jewish colleagues overboard, stripping them of credentials and respect and jobs and - academic freedom. The very first. Nobody like William I. Robinson has the right to criticize those Nazi academics in light of this kind of evil in action.

And let nobody get excited about academic freedom who does not support the teaching of Intelligent Design (even as one of several theories).

Comment by Ben Plonie on 4/27/09 at 4:07 pm

I don’t see anything wrong with the approach that this professor took.  It is the duty of our educators to challenge our beliefs and force us to think critically and engage in an open dialogue about course topics.  As an American, I have no problem criticizing United States government policies and actions.  Similarly, Jews should have no problem criticizing Israeli policies.  Blind support of a government’s policies, not just Israel’s, but any government, completely undermines democratic ideals and political freedom.  I hope this “academic investigation” ends well for Professor Robinson.

Comment by Serene on 4/27/09 at 11:00 pm

How can you help?  Send an email to UCSB Chancellor Henry Yang. Tell him that hate speech is not free speech, and that intimidation and indoctrination have no place in academic discourse.

  .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).
  Courtesy copy the following:

  .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

  (Names and positions follow)
  * Martin Scharlemann, Academic Senate Charges Officer
  * Gene Lucas, Executive Vice-Chancellor
  * Melvin Oliver, Dean of Social Sciences
  * Susan J. Mazer, Chair, AS Committee on Committees
  * Joel Michaelson, Chair, Academic Senate
  * Sarah Fenstermaker, Chair, AS Privilege and Tenure Committee
  * Alison Butler, Chair, AS Committee on Academic Personnel
  * Vickie Scott, Chair, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Helen Callus, Member, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Steven J. Gaulin, Member, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Sven Spieker, Member, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Susanne Stemmer, Member, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Jenn E. Caselle, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Kostas Goulias, Member, AS Committee on Faculty Welfare and Academic Freedom
  * Paul E. Amar, UC Academic Freedom Representative
  * Stephanie Smagala, member, AS Charges Advisory Committee
  * Aaron Ettenberg, AS Charges Advisory Committee
  * Hua Lee, AS Charges Advisory Commitee
  * Marianne Mithun, AS Charges Advisory Committee
  * Frances Zok, AS Charges Advisory Committee
  * Helen Henry, Chair, University of California Committee on Academic Freedom

Send a cop of your email to Professor Robinson (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)). Include a personal message to him:
“JUST FOR YOUR INTEREST”

Comment by Dusty on 4/27/09 at 11:24 pm

After visiting Gaza, I see why the occupying country, Israel, has blocked it off to journalists. If Prof. Robinson is compelled to suggest students consider the similarities in the photo examples, which by the way, are human rights abuses, too bad this is considered “hateful” by some. Hitler was not challenged until too late. What is excuse of the educator if he/she does not question of the morality of this present situation??

Comment by Kathy Elliott on 4/28/09 at 3:36 pm

How disgusting that people refuse to see the truth, and only look at what is presented in a biased fashion.

Here’s what I sent to the chancellor:

It’s bad enough that one of your professors would drag his personal politics
into the classroom - but to LIE while he’s doing it? If you do not fire William
Robinson, you will disgrace yourselves, especially as an institution of higher
learning, forever.

[end quote]

Comment by Susan on 4/28/09 at 4:39 pm

Historical comparisons are useful tools for clarifying facts and drawing out the tenets of universal morality. If people behave in ways or support behaviors analogous to those past violent regimes, then they inspire the comparison. Too bad this is not in itself a deterrent to such behavior.

Comment by Andrew on 4/28/09 at 6:34 pm

I agree with Andrew 4-28 4:34pm, Kathy Elliott 4-28 1:36pm and Serene 4-27 9pm.        The tremendous imbalance of power between Palestinians and Israel, with the fifth most powerful military on Earth, wouldn’t be relevant if Israel treated Palestinians as humans with equal worth and equal legal rights as Jews, but Israel doesn’t do this.  Not only does it indoctrinate its majority Jewish youth, nearly all compelled to “serve” in the Israeli Defense Forces, to feel fine about abusing, harassing, even arbitrarily detaining, locking up, torturing and killing Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, they’ve even justified openly assassinating legally elected members of the Palestinian Legislative Council simply because they are members of the majority political party—Hamas—which was victorious in 2006 in the only truly democratic elections in an Arab nation (not yet a state because Israel’s ethnic cleansing policy demands preventing statehood for Palestinians ever happening).      The Hamas victory led to Israeli and U.S. collective punishment against the entire population of Gaza, 1.4 million people, half of them children, a blockade which Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu declared an unconscionable humanitarian disaster.  Mandela, Tutu and other South Africans have said—and this is relevant to defense of Professor Robinson’s fairly objective observations, rather than mere (so-called “hate speech”) “opinion”—Israel’s “separation barrier” (found illegal by a 14 to 1 vote of the International Court of Justice in 2004) and over 600 checkpoints in the West Bank have made life worse for Palestinians than what black South Africans suffered under the white “apartheid” regime of South Africa.          It is a demonstrable fact, not mere opinion, that Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since Israel’s 1967 invasion, have suffered many human rights violations quite analogous to what Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto suffered—including being called “terrorists” for “smuggling” small arms into what the Nazis called “the territories” (such as Warsaw’s fenced-in Jewish “ghetto”) to defend themselves against their immoral, illegal occupiers.        Too many Americans have failed to question reporting on “the Palestine-Israel conflict” by our mainstream media and have ended up swallowing the anti-Arab prejudice manufactured largely by “the Israel Lobby” (see the book with this title by Walt and Mearsheimer, especially if you think you could disprove its carefully reasoned and scholastically documented argument).  Many Christians like myself grew up believing Jews had a right to a homeland free from racist, or religionist/ethnocentric, discrimination, and we were taught Israel was that homeland.  Highly esteemed Israeli historians, from rightwing zionist Benny Morris to leftist Ilan Pappe, however, agree that “ethnic cleansing,” as defined in the recent conviction of Slobodan Milosevic, was precisely the method openly adopted by zionists like David Ben-Gurion and fellow zealots for “Eretz Israel” to take Palestine away from the Palestinians for European Jews.  The venomous rhetoric of people attacking Professor Robinson is either ignorant of historic facts, neatly duped by what (son of Holocaust victims) Norman Finkelstein brilliantly dissected as “the Holocaust Industry”, or they are conscious members of the ideologically consistent “interest group” advocating for “Israeli security” as a pretext for further ethnic cleansing of the Middle East for a Greater Israel that ideally would include parts of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and, perhaps, even Iran.  The political Zionists (to distinguish them from religious zionists) are very patient and defined by the vision, which requires an almighty military and long-term planning, including calculated strategy of taunting weaker foes until they strike out and then bulldozing them out of existence.  I challenge any to disprove these assertions, since I can back them up with quotes from all the great generals and prime ministers of Israel since its establishment as a state 62 years ago.

Comment by steve greaves on 4/28/09 at 7:42 pm

Steve Greaves
I don’t care what quotes (phony and otherwise) you may produce to back up your crappola. The bottom line is that Israel is Palestine, but Palestine is not Israel. The land know to the Jews as Israel and to non-Jews as Palestine is the land of the Jews, and not of any non-Jews including Arabs. The specific assumptions or agendas or ideologies of any particular political or military or academic figures cannot change that fact. The Arabs of Palestine including those of Trans-Jordan (Eastern Palestine) with the most trivial exceptions are recent migrants and squatters. Therefore, the suffering of their illegal selves and children results from their trespassing and threatening the legitimate Jewish owners and sovereigns of the land.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 4/28/09 at 11:16 pm

It’s ridiculous to say jewish students are “under siege” because they are among everyone who received an email. The only one who is under siege is the professor, who’s free speech rights are being trampled by bigoted individuals determined to conduct a witch-hunt into his legal activities. The youTube video manipulating the truth and saying the student is “under siege” is sheer manipulation of the facts.

Comment by eugin on 4/30/09 at 11:40 pm

You neglect to acknowledge that students are under siege because the professor is in an authority relationship with students and holds the power of penalizing their records, damaging their academic success and careers, similar to other kinds of abuse cases by authority figures. Students have no practical recourse against such abuse and the dangerous influence and incitement on the part of such abusers.

On the other hand, the professor might have made a case by promoting his views privately on his own time. I say might because other cases of perversion and depravity have been found just cause for termination.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/01/09 at 12:05 am

This professor abused his position by using the class email list to broadcast his political views to the class.  The images were not designed to get the students to think - they were designed to draw a specific and odious conclusion. 

Can you put a copy of the full course outline and syllabus?  Was the material incorporated into the course itself?  Can a copy of the email be posted.

Afterall - since the goal of the email was to get people to think lets think about the sociology of the classroom and the effect of juxtaposing unqualified imagery.

Comment by D. Price on 5/01/09 at 11:56 am

It is revealing that some who comment against the professor attack him, not the ideas he is presenting. Could it be these ideas ring true? Can we not discuss these ideas? I think he was very brave. Look at how Jimmy Carter and Walt Mearsheimer and Stephan Walt were treated; appallingly. The students are not “under siege”. The professor is. Seems to me this is (another) case of attacking the messenger.

Comment by Kath on 5/01/09 at 4:50 pm

Actually Kath, I don’t know the professor from a hole in the wall, and have only attacked his ideas which are absurdly easy to attack. You are putting the cart before the horse, or the liar before the lie as it were.

None of these people were attacked ad hominem other than on the basis of their false and misleading information and theses. People who do that of course are liars and hypocrites, possibly corrupt and evil and insane and traitorous, but not on a standalone basis. Jimmy Carter in particular said that he wrote his book to stimulate debate, and then declined to debate the issue. Here’s a message: Jimmy Carter has gotten hundreds of millions of dollars from Arab oil kingdoms for a so-called institute and library and trust. This is the truth; don’t shoot the messenger, now! If the professor is a cowardly lying unethical and abusive weasel, that is a truth that you should not try to suppress.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/01/09 at 5:58 pm

It sounds like you are saying he should never have brought anyone’s attention to potential similarities between the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza by Israel and the treatment of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and Communists by the Third Reich? Are they analogous? Name calling is not confronting ideas.

Comment by Kath on 5/01/09 at 7:34 pm

to ben bolonie: as usual, Zionist first - truth seeker never. I suggest if you want to be an educated Zionist, you may want to read your predecessors, i.e. ahad hamm, theodore herzl, and jabotinski - they were all aware of the NATIVE ARAB POPULATIONS!!! oops! Yeah, and its very well documented, and the ink is dry, so hot it may burn through….
Typical of you zealots :“dont confuse me with the facts”!

Comment by marce on 5/02/09 at 2:47 am

to Steve Greaves: can you throw out a few of the quotes you refer to at the end of your comment above? Thanks.

Comment by Kath on 5/02/09 at 11:34 am

Kath
No, I’m just saying that he shouldn’t be a coward and a liar. Until recently in historic terms, a professor was in principle someone committed to truth and integrity. The Israeli military is the most ethical in the history of the world, and utilizes the most advanced techniques and technology to minimize harm to civilians, in spite of the use by the savage Arab death cult controlling Gaza using them as human shields to an unprecedented degree. The information is easy to obtain to anyone looking for it. A professor with his credentials and resources has no excuse disseminating propaganda crafted to engage the masses of clods.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/02/09 at 10:42 pm

Marce,
You don’t know what you are talking about. The Hertzl material is bogus, Ahad ‘Hamm’ was a secular socialist ideologue with no interest in a Jewish state at all and no qualms at spinning the truth to his agenda, and Jabotinsky lived when the British had spent decades preventing Jews from living in Palestine and encouraging Arabs to move in.

There is no such thing as a NATIVE ARAB POPULATION in Jewish Palestine. Arabs are foreign to Palestine, and never had a state, a capitol, a government, a currency, or a recipe for falafel native to Palestine. They never built a city there except for Ramallah. The only constant element of the population of Palestine was the Jewish one, the other residents of Palestine changed many times. There were very few Arabs or anyone else in Palestine before it became politically and logistically feasible for the Zionists to organize rebuilding projects in Palestine. This was necessary because the land which was wealthy and highly developed under the Jews had largely become a dust bowl devoid even of trees. Arabs began to move into Palestine from surrounding areas in response to Zionist investment of blood, sweat and money, and even after the British vigorously impeded and sabotaged the Zionists for thirty years owned only three percent of the arable land against the Jews’ six percent (the rest being state lands and empty like the deserts and mountains).

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/02/09 at 11:01 pm

No Arabs on the land? Jewish humanist Martin Buber: “Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of causeless hatred…It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruits of whose gardens and vineyards we gather, and in whose cities that we robbed we put up houses of education, charity, and prayer, while we babble and rave about being the ‘People of the Book’ and the ‘light of the nations.’”
Now that archives are now available, it is time to see what the Israeli historians are writing—Pappe, Sand,
Davis even Morris…

Comment by Kathy Ellliot on 5/02/09 at 11:47 pm

Unfortunately for you, it seems that the antiZionists cannot agree on who allegedly originated this quote, Buber or Chofshi. And the quote does not exist anywhere except among Arab, radical left-wing and Nazi wbsites. So sorry.

In any case, Buber cannot be used as a reference on this topic. In spite of the catch-all ‘Zionist’ label he wore, he opposed a Jewish state in Palestine in preference to a Jewish-Arab state, with Jews being in the minority. His vision for Israel was to be a model of whatever airheaded notions of humanism he was promoting at the time. After the founding of Israel he was still trying to advocate Israel dissolving itself into some larger regional entity that would of course have the same goal of keeping the Jews as a minority. If you can’t see the proof of the folly of those proposals in 2009, it is not possible to explain it.

Pappe is not a historian but a rabid anti-Israel activist. Morris has backed off from his youthful blunders. I don’t know the others and don’t care.

Since you are into historical quotes, here is one from Zuhair Mohsen (ate Military Department head
of the PLO and member of its Executive
Council) in Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

I never said there were NO Arabs on the land. There are Arabs in Jersey City and Detroit too, but Jersey City and Detroit are not sovereign Arab territories. However the Jews never left or gave up their claim to sovereignty in Palestine, and it was the Arabs who dispossed the Jews and not the Romans.

This is from a wonderful website with tons of documented information on the topic, happy surfing!
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/presence.html

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/03/09 at 1:20 am

A college professor would be remiss in his/her duties were s/he to fail to challenge students to engage controversial issues (such as how our tax dollars are spent), so they can learn to try to out-reason arguments put forward by those with whom they might disagree.  My best teachers invited my rational disagreement as a coach invites an athlete to improve speed, endurance, strength, coordination with workouts.  S/He would also be remiss to call “facts” the prevailing views about those facts (such as all Jews are perpetual victims of “the Holocaust,” and that Israelis somehow are exempt from international rules of conduct all other nations must adhere to).  A professor would be remiss also were s/he to withhold discussion of what professional “best practices” have determined to be the documented historical facts.  Robinson is guilty of neither sin of unprofessionalism.  We also need full facts of his case, which have NOT been provided on this thread, whose initiating article is inherently biased against the professor.

  In this light I’d like to respond to recent missives on this thread.
  I’ve been asked (Comment by Kath on 5/02/09 at 9:34 am) to provide quotations of Israel’s founders, aka political Zionists (folks intent on turning traditional Palestine into an exclusively Jewish empire Zionists like to call “Eretz Israel”), relevant to my defense of Professor Robinson against recent false and libelous charges that he lacks integrity as a scholar and college teacher.  These charges are advanced by people who are at best ill-informed but more likely intellectually lazy and, far worse, calculatedly dishonest. 

  Such “Zealots for Zion” (to borrow the title of a 1992 book on Israel’s illegal West Bank settlements by the brilliant, alas late, journalist for The Village Voice, Robert I. Friedman) are people for whom criticism of Israel constitutes treason worse than a President’s violating the U.S. Constitution.  They are people who seem to sincerely believe they have Israel’s best interests at heart, despite the fact that Israel’s greatest novelists, Amos Oz and David Grossman, as Friedman notes (p. xxvii), “steadfastly have catalogued the sins of occupation and the collateral damage it does to Israel’s soul.”  Many Jews – Tanya Reinhart, Noam Chomsky, Avi Shlaim, Joel Kovel, Jeff Halper, Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe, Avraham Burg, Idith Zertal, Akiva Eldar, Jacqueline Rose, and Anne Karpf, Brian Klug, Barbara Rosenbaum and Eyal Weizman (and other signatories of the Independent Jewish Voices “Declaration” and 2008 anthology, A Time to Speak Out) have fiercely, eloquently and with great soul-searching courage, challenged Israel’s anti-Arab discrimination against Palestinians inside Israel and in the post-1967 Occupied Territories, and the millions of Palestinians in the diaspora whose ancestors Israel forced into refugee camps in neighboring Arab countries when establishing the state of Israel in 1948 via David Ben-Gurion’s explicit “tactics of terror” and with a morally-politically compromised United Nations’s help, after an anti-Semitic Europe had failed to prevent Hitler’s “Final Solution”.

  (FYI, Jews do not own the word “holocaust.”  My The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: New College Edition (William Morris, Editor; Houghton-Mifflin, 1980) offers these three definitions:  “sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames; burnt offering”; “any widespread destruction” (synonym “disaster”), and “great or total destruction by fire; a conflagration.”  Thus, what Israel perpetrated against thousands of civilians in Gaza in 22 days last winter could reasonably be called “a holocaust” for those victims of its vicious offensive – and it was an offensive, planned well before the June 2008 truce, according to IDF Generals’ testimony in the Israeli and UK press in January 2009.)

  Before providing some quotes, I’d like to chastise Mr. “Ben Plonie” for being disingenuous, rude, and intellectually lazy and inept for making ad hominem libels on this thread against Prof. Robinson and providing zero documentation for his claims, which of course he couldn’t do since they were all spurious.

  Here are a few quotations, documented facts, that lend credibility to Professor Robinson’s claim about troubling analogs between the Nazi occupation of Poland (part of what Nazi mass murderer Herr Goebbels in his published diaries (see The Jewish Library online) referred to as “the Territories”) with its “racist” segregative, enforced enclosure of the Jews in Warsaw (creating the “Warsaw Ghetto”), and the Israeli government’s equally “racist” ghettoization, starvation, arbitrary imprisonment, torture and criminalization of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.  There are many, many more such quotes from Dayan, Ben-Gurion and others (See Pappe’s footnotes.)

  Leo Motzkin, liberal Zionist, in 1917, told fellow Zionists, many far more hateful toward Arabs than he:  “Our thought is that the colonization of Palestine has to go in two directions:  Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country.  The transfer of so many Arabs may seem at first unacceptable economically, but is nonetheless practical.  It does not require too much money to resettle a Palestinian village on another land.”
  David Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937:  “We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).  And while addressing the Zionist executive, he again emphasized the tactical nature of his support for partition and his assumption that:  “. . . after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the [Jewish] state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of the Palestine” (emphasis added). (See The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, by Simha Flapan, p. 22; read the “one review” on Amazon.com and read other reviews by this very capable reviewer.)
  Joseph Weitz, the head of Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, stated in 1940:  “between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples (Israelis and Palestinians) together in this country. There is no other way than to transfer Arabs from here to neighboring countries …all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.” (A Solution to The Refugee Problem by Joseph Weitz, Davar, September 29, 1967, originally from “My Diary and Letters to the Children” Massada, 1965, III, p. 293)
  Moshe Dayan stated in an oration at the funeral of an Israeli farmer killed by a Palestinian Arab in April 1956:  “Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.”
  Moshe Dayan addressing the Technion (Israel Institute of Technology), Haifa (as quoted in Ha’aretz, 4 April 1969):  “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu’a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
  David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister: “We must expel Arabs and take their place” (Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press 1985); “We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return. The old will die and the young will forget,” and “The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate.  The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill… from the Nile to the Euphrates.”

  Menachim Begin, another Israeli Prime Minister, described the Palestinians as “beasts walking on two legs” (speech to the Knesset quoted in Amnon Kapeliok’s “Begin and the Beasts”; New Statesman, June 25, 1982).

  Michael Ben-Yair, former Attorney General, Israel, in Ha’aretz daily (3/3/2002):  “The Six-Day War was forced upon us; however, the war’s seventh day, which began on June 12, 1967 and has continued to this day, is the product of our choice. We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day. . . . . The Six-Day War’s seventh day has transformed us from a just society into an unjust one, prepared to expand its control atop another nation’s ruins. The discarding of our moral foundation has hurt us as a society. .” [ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=136433 ]
  For more quotes of Israel’s founding fathers showing irrefutably the consistent “ethnic cleansing” agenda of Israel from its inception, including its strategy of delaying tactics and manufactured pretexts for violence with baiting harassments and public relations diversions, see Michael Neumann’s The Case Against Israel (a far more respectable piece of scholarship than Alan Dershowitz’s The Case for Israel).  Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine is required reading for anybody daring to claim concern for or a desire to be knowledgeable about Israel and its struggle between militarist expansionism and peaceful coexistence with its Arab neighbors and the Palestinians.  Tom Segev’s 1967, Benny Morris’ 1948, Eric Hazan’s little Notes on the Occupation: Palestinian Lives, Abu Abunimah’s One Country, Tanya Reinhart’s Israel/Palestine, and for a general overview of the U.S. role in Israeli oppression and militarism in the Middle East, Noam Chomsky’s What We Say Goes.

Comment by Steve Greaves on 5/03/09 at 4:59 am

Comment to Ben
According Prof Lawrence Davidson, in The Zionist Attack on Jewish Values, Buber wrote the above quote in the January-February 1961 issue of the Hebrew magazine.

Comment by Kathy Elliott on 5/03/09 at 5:18 am

Greaves: Before I engage your “...intellectually lazy and, far worse, calculatedly dishonest” library of concoctions, let’s see how honest an anti-Jew you are. The Ben-Gurion quote “We must expel Arabs and take their place” as you surely must know in the original text reads “And then we will have to use force… without hesitation though only when we have no choice. We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their place…” Isn’t that right?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/03/09 at 8:21 pm

Thanks, Alice. I haven’t had time to grade Steve Greave’s paper and probably won’t till tomorrow night. Context is all, and he is merely pasting together a pile of irrelevant garbage or making them irrelevant by his presentation.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/04/09 at 6:58 am

Steve, thanks. Fascinating reading.
Alice - where did you get the Ben-Gurion quote about “We must expel Arabs ...”? Thanks.

Comment by Kath on 5/04/09 at 9:48 am

Ben Gurion’s quote from 1937 (Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press 1985) “We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places”  is a mandate to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians from their land…that is the critical point—whether his entire comment is included… or not is irrelevant.

Comment by Kathy Elliott on 5/04/09 at 1:44 pm

From “Fabricating Israeli History” by Efraim Karsh and Benny Morris who finally looked at the original document after relying on secondary sources and other purposeful deceptions.

Elliot: Of course it’s relevant.  Are you unable to read and comprehend that the quote has been altered to make it mean something that is unsupported by the original source and complete context?

You see folks, the anti-Jew is so invested in his perverted weltanschauung that teacup full of Israelis surrounded by a sea of blood thirsty barbarians screaming “Imshi al Yehud!” and “Itbach al Yehud!” and “Al mawt al Yahud!” become the enemies of civilization. If the anti-Jew had a shred of humanity he would look at

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2042.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2058.htm

and a light would enter his distorted mind and challenge the disease therein. But anti-Jew fever is so powerful and he will choose to regard its poison rather than the truth thrust before his eyes. And, thus, he drones on “ethnic cleansing”, “ethnic cleansing”, “ethnic cleansing”...

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/04/09 at 3:11 pm

Ahad Ha-am (the pen name of the famous Jewish moralist Asher Ginzberg), noted as early as1891 that Zionist settlers in Palestine have “an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and no one among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” He warned that such behavior stemmed from the political orientation of the Zionist movement which could only end up morally corrupting the Jewish people.

Unlike Chaim Weizmann, who famously desired that the Jews become a nation like all other nations, Ha-am (who was dedicated to Jewish cultural revival in Palestine) believed that the return to Zion was worthwhile only if the Jews did not become like other nations. By 1913 Ha-am knew this was not to be, and he completely rejected the nature of Zionism as it was evolving. “If this be the ‘Messiah,’” he wrote, “I do not wish to see his coming.” In effect, critics like Ha-am were making a distinction between Judaism, with its moral values and cultural richness, and the ethnocentric, tribal Zionism that was now coming into being.

As the issuance of the Balfour Declaration drew nearer other Jews voiced their worries. In England, on May 24, 1917, the Joint Foreign Committee of two Jewish organizations, The Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Anglo-Jewish Association issued a statement which asserted, “the feature of the Zionist program objected to proposes to invest Jewish settlers in Palestine with special rights over others. This would prove a calamity to the whole Jewish people who hold that the principle of equal rights for all denominations is essential. The [Zionist program] is all the more inadmissable because…it might involve them in most bitter feuds with their neighbors of other races and religion.”  In the United States, a letter typical of the Jewish opposition to Zionism was sent by Henry Moskowitz to the New York Times on June 10, 1917. He wrote the following, “what are the serious moral dangers in this nationalistic point of view from the standpoint of the Jewish soul? Here are some of them: first, it is apt to breed racial egotism….the establishment of the Jewish state may coarsen the quality of Hebrew spirituality and result not in a pure but in an alloyed idealism.” A year later the debate over Zionism still went on in the American Jewish community and occasioned Rabbi Louis Grossman of the Plum Street Synagogue in Cincinnati to write to President Woodrow Wilson. He told Wilson, “...a considerable number of Jews condemn the misrepresentation and resent the campaign which is being conducted by the Zionists and the political complications into which they are dragging our faith and ideals….The Zionists may have alleged to you that Zionism is extra-religious…but there are Jews who differ from them and maintain with equal certainty that the Zionistic assertion is a violation of their religious sanctities, and they protest against the secularization of their faith.”

Comment by Gena Methuen on 5/04/09 at 3:15 pm

Follow Gena’s link to the “Hemp City of the Netherlands” and you find the natural ally of the Muslim barbarian. Tell me Methuen, did you lose your mind before you lost your country or vice versa?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/04/09 at 3:26 pm

Ben:

I would, if I may, advise you that Greaves has been collecting this garbage adjunct to his adolescent compendium of porno; so, responding at length is like disputing sexually explicit material with Larry Flynt.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/04/09 at 3:51 pm

Oh, this is too good! I’m going to wager that our Steve is none other than the Steve Greaves who was a part of the Free Gaza movement that recently sailed from Cyprus to Gaza. Here’s why:

“Steve Greaves… ...spent two weeks in Cyprus helping prepare the expedition. He said participants received numerous death threats, and experienced what may have been sabotage when navigational gear failed while the boats were en route.”

(From an unnamed source to shield poor Steve from more criminal Zionist death threats)

Is this you Gilligan Greaves? Oooh, did the eeeevil Jews sabotage your naviwavi? Maybe if you had noticed that your Arab guide was genuflecting towards Poughkeepsie five times a day, the Minnow wouldn’t have been late for the Gaza hummus hoedown.

I’m also going to bet that this is you:

“The World Trade Center massacre was a direct result of this fact of late capitalism that is no longer capitalism but e-mobile finance gangsterism. The massacre—3,000 plus Americans (measured against millions in Latin America, Asia, Africa?)—was a long time coming.”

Is this you Jeremiah Greaves? Were the 19 Arab barbarians who committed this atrocity really avenging “e-mobile finance gangsterism”? I’m impressed and genuinely want to hear more; so, come on down Greaves!

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/04/09 at 9:15 pm

Where have all the little trolls gone?

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 8:22 am

this thread is no longer on topic—it appears there are those who dont want to argue the issue but attack the
messengers.
btw -If Greaves did help the Free Gaza as it broke the Gaza blockade, (the first international boat in 41 yrs to enter Gaza’s port) more power to him.
The news reports today writes there is a large ship out of Italy with EU officials from different countries on its way to bring supplies to Gaza. If one looks at this blockade—and decades long occupation—as a incitement of conflict and cruel at the same time—this approach appears to be successful and nonviolent at the same time.  Part of the problem as to why the US stands alone with Israel on their unjust treatment of those they occupy is that news coverage in the states is censored. Not sure you will read much about this boat. An Amercian jounalist, a Jew, saw this bias and started tracking what was really going on from the news, web site:  If Americans Knew.

Comment by Kathy Elliott on 5/05/09 at 1:20 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2gWvVLsI8E

Comment by Courtney on 5/05/09 at 2:16 pm

Kathy:

Of course it’s relevant because the issue is as bogus as the blogger. Greaves is clearly paranoid about Jews and if he believes that 9/11 was caused by American “e-mobile finance gangsterism”, it goes directly not only to his credibility but his sanity.  And, you still haven’t responded to my in any meaningful way to my debunking of Greaves’ Ben-Gurion quote.

I also posted two MEMRI videos that go to very heart of the issue.  Did you watch them? You see, Kathy, anti-Jews all have similar thought processes. One of the hallmarks of the anti-Jew is his tendentious ability to open the book and start reading at chapter three or four.  You aren’t at your Social Justice Center now and you don’t get to conveniently skip History or re-write it as with the Ben-Gurion letter or your buddy Courtney’s Pallywood offering.  Watch the videos that I previously posted and get a real education. 

Another tactic of the anti-Jew is to throw a whole pile of crap on the wall and see if any of it sticks. I’m not playing your idiot games. Again, watch the videos, digest the real Ben-Gurion quote and we’ll continue from there.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/05/09 at 4:56 pm

You can’t pin these people down with facts, Alice. They just make accusations and innuendos like the Arabs do when they lob rockets. Then they do what the Arabs did in Gaza. When the Israelis came into Gaza, there were no brave shouting fighters with face masks and machine guns. They simply hid out and did not engage the Israelis militarily, and came out of their holes after the fact to brag about defeating them. And that’s what Kathy will do when you have gone elsewhere.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 5/06/09 at 6:07 am

Wow. That Egyptian cleric is filled with Rage & Bolonie. Keep up the name-calling. Peace out.

Comment by Kath on 5/06/09 at 1:16 pm

Ben:

The comment above is typical of the responses that I have received on other occasions. Recently, on another blog, I was similarly dismissed and accused of being Islamophobic for bringing these videos to light. These trolls are constitutionally incapable of seeing what’s in front of their eyes and so invested in their worldview that I become the enemy, even worse than the real perps for just challenging them. So much for an “exchange of ideas”. Notice also that they won’t even consider that the Ben-Gurion quote that they tout is a fiction. Thus the fantasy ideologues of the Left have embraced evil again for the sake of their ideology.  The Soviets used to call them “useful idiots”.  I’m sure that the Muslim has an analog for those that drink the taqqiyah. 

And we are sometimes bewildered at how the Muslim recruits the callow and disaffected among them to become terrorists when the parallel in our society has just left the room.

Comment by Alice Rage on 5/06/09 at 2:19 pm

Abe Foxman is insisting UCSB doesn’t dare let anyone know the means of operation in keeping Gaza vacuum-packed.
  Israelies were shoe-horned-in by Britain into the position to maintain
according to Collins;

see google books:
O Jerusalem!
 
O Jerusalem!‎ - Page 89
by Larry Collins, Dominique Lapierre - History - 1988 - 640 pages
fl^^H JERUSALEM: THE HOLY CITY AT A TRAGIC HOUR On May 28, 1948, after ten weeks
of violent fighting following the proclamation of the state of Israel, ...
Limited preview - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

So, its just more fall-away of the Brit Empire and its mutations.
I dont mean to be rude but Israel is known around town as, ‘The Mutation from Manchester’.
Shaftsbury, Palmerston’s step-dad
pushed the Christian myth of, ‘God will help those who help the Jews”.
Palmerston(who dispised Americans) put camps of Jews in Holy Land, 1826.

“Churchill’s Promised Land” is @ google books…excellent read.

So is
‘Truman and the Creation of Israel’ where on the Suez FDR was talking out both sides of his mouth
(aka “forked tongue”)

Nixon stepped up.

‘History of the Jews’ -Johnson

Comment by Gena Methuen on 5/14/09 at 3:36 pm

The only thing that I see more and more is how Israel continues to exterminate the Palestinians. It makes me sick, don’t let our media that is controlled by our government continue to brainwash you… 

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Comment by Eduardo on 5/14/09 at 11:51 pm

In Spite of the catch-all ‘Zionist’label he wore,he opposed a Jewish state in Palestine in preference to a Jewish-Arab state, with Jews being in the minority. His vision for Israel was to be a model of whatever airheaded notions of humanism he was promoting at the time.

It is a demonstrable fact, not mere opinion, that Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since Israel’s 1967 invasion, have suffered many human rights violations quite analogous to what Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto suffered—including being called “terrorists” for “smuggling” small arms into what the Nazis called “the territories” (such as Warsaw’s fenced-in Jewish “ghetto”) to defend themselves against their immoral, illegal occupiers.

Comment by Ethan on 1/16/10 at 4:33 am

How disappointing. I recall from another blog post that you seemed to have some sense and integrity. Oh, well. When it comes to Jews and Israel the mask always slips.

Calling your misconceptions ‘demonstrable fact’ is not the same as demonstrating a fact. In actual fact, it is even less than an opinion as it has no basis at all. Deconstructing the rest of your statement will take longer than the statement since every single term you use is a distortion. It is clear that you have not referred to the links and quotes I supplied earlier. In them, it is made clear as a demonstrable fact that the Jewish homeland has never been the homeland of another nation, in spite of the various foreign (non-Jewish) conquests and occupations.

The territory referred to by scholars as Palestine was nothing more than the land of ancient Israel, renamed so by Romans to erase its Jewish identity. Until 1964, the term Palestinian always referred to Jews, not Arabs. Palestine as understood by the entire world including the Arabs always included Gaza, the ‘West Bank’, the Golan, the area now called Southern Lebanon or Hizbollah-land, and most importantly Trans-Jordan extending up to the Euphrates River. That is because this was the extent of the Israelite kingdoms as outlined in the Bible. This was acknowledged by Turks and Arabs before the modern Zionist restoration, although they considered the Jews to be obsolete as a nation.

There are no historic Palestinian Arabs outside of the jargon of antisemites. There are no Arab Palestinian Territories outside of the ideology and jargon of antisemites. Therefore, Jewish settlement and residency in all parts of historic Jewish Palestine is legal and moral, and can not be considered ‘occupation’. Israeli response the illegal and immoral Arab shelling from their illegally and immorally occupied Jewish lands cannot be called an invasion. to See Ephraim Karsh, What Occupation? at http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html

Comparing Jews and Israel to Nazis is a staple of haters. I wouldn’t want to be you looking in the mirror.

If you are looking for human-rights violations, look at the treatment of Jews in Arab and Muslim lands, now including their expulsion from those portions of Jewish Palestine occupied by Arabs.

It is true that Israel made a major mistake in not annexing all of Jewish Palestine through a failure of the imagination in dealing with the illegal Arab occupation. But you may peruse the online writings of Walid Shoebat, Brigitte Gabriel, Nonie Darwish, Faoud Ajami, Wafa Sultan, Irshad Manji, Joseph Farah, Khaled Abu Toameh etc. as well as Sheikh Palazzi to discover a world of Arab Zionism that you obviously do not know exists.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/17/10 at 2:12 am

‘The Transfer Agreement’ - Edwin Black
Gentile Zionists..Hitler, Churchill…working with Jew Zionists forced European (Jews) into Palestine. There lies the problem for pre-Israel /non-Euro occupants of that region.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 1/24/10 at 12:19 am

The Transfer Agreement is irrelevant. The ‘pre-Israel/non Euro occupants of that region” were few, transient or migratory, foreign to Palestine themselves and neither landowners nor sovereigns of the region.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/24/10 at 1:04 am

Christopher Hill, ‘Liberty Against the Law’...the Brits be it in Ireland, Palestine, N. America etc never considered a land not cultivated as occupied. But for the sake of arguement what you last stated has you admiting Israel was/is Euro imperialism. In Aquavelvajad’s words, ‘Go back to Europe’.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 1/27/10 at 5:32 pm

Not at all. Go back and read some of my notes earlier in this thread and elsewhere. In them you would learn (apparently for the first time) that Arabs are a foreign and malign presence in the land. The origin of their flimsy claim to Palestine/Israel is the colonial Islamic Conquest in which they forced the indigenous Jews off their lands and villages and subjugated the Jews into forced labor. The Jews, sole survivors from your prehistoric times, however never relinquished their claim and are not dead yet. Jews from Europe and even more from Asia and Africa are the bearers of this eternal claim, regardless of the viewpoint or geopolitical agendas of the Brits. That status was universally recognized by the entire world (including the Arabs) before the turn of the last century; but it has remained true in times of recognition and non-recognition.

In returning, the Jews did not represent the various dominating tribes of the European, Asian or African locales of exile but only themselves. In a moment of political sanity, Israeli novelist Amos Oz glimsed the truth with the insight that in Europe, the natives would shout ‘Jews to Palestine’, while in Palestine the illegal Arab squatters would shout ‘Jews out of Palestine’, even those that had arrived on the vegetable truck five minutes earlier.

So to paraphrase you, ‘Go back to Arabia!’

who

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/28/10 at 1:43 am

indigenous Jews”...right, like you popped out of a rock.
I don’t recognize your prehistoric claim anymore than the American Indian should own Manhatten. Your fixation with Iran is just to keep the exterior-threat kettle boling so Euro-Jews wont be cast upon a ‘Levantine dunghill’ -Haggai Ram. And the Israeli call for foreigners to immigrate atop the non-Jew continues.
ps
The missile shield test out here in California failed yesterday. I’m still laughin’. All that moeny when drones are the way to go. Enjoy.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/01/10 at 5:26 pm

When Jimmuh Cahtuh told the great Menachem Begin that he did not recognize Jewish claims in Jerusalem, Begin told him “We do not recognize your non-recognition”. We need a man like that again. Your non-recognition is just as boring.

The illegal and colonialist Arab incursion, land grab and occupation of 632 AD occurred about twenty centuries into the establishment of Jewish sovereignty and continuous residency over the Holy Land. The Jews are the oldest living civilization in the world. How much more indigenous do you need?

Beyond that, there has been continuous Jewish habitation in the Holy Land throughout the rule of any and all foreign invading forces. In spite of Haggai Ram, whoever that is, Euro-Jews are exactly the same as Levantine Jews, Persian Jews, North African Jews, Italian Jews and all other Jews. But if your counting, there are more Levantine Jews in Israel than European Jews anyway. 

It should be noted that the Arabs retain their control of Arabia, as well as vast expanses of other conquests in which they oppress a hundred other indigenous populations, most notably the Copts, Maronites, Kurds, Marsh Arabs (who are not really Arabs) and Sudanese Animists. No, don’t apologize, most people who think they know it all don’t know these things.

I wouldn;t worry about the missile test. Israeli drones are the gold standard for that technology.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/01/10 at 11:42 pm

Haggai Ram teaches the history of the Middle East at Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Israel.
Wrote, ‘IRANOPHOBIA’.
I wipe my azz with your occupation and sense of entitlement. And any war started by Israel will be brought to your cities, fold.
‘Gold standard’...what a laugh. Youre one loaded drone away from being a wonderer, again. Asher Ginzberg warned you.(see above text)

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/04/10 at 4:33 pm

How do I do it? I can smell people like you a mile away. When confronted with simple facts and ideas your spool unwinds and you start to get crazy and threaten.

The Jews, God, the Torah and Israel are not going away. People like you are. Look if a Jew could live in Arabia (he can’t), he would accept that he is in the land of the Arabs. If a Jew could live in Vatican city (he can’t), he would accept that he is the land of the Christians. So if a non-Jew comes to the Holy Land, he has to accept that he is the land of the Jews. Simple. And Haggai Ram and Asher Ginzberg can go live elsewhere in protest, and I wish they would.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/05/10 at 8:48 am

Robinson lives to teach another day. Foxman loses again. Israel and Nazi Germany have simularities concerning ethnological pecking order, racial bias.
And I am not less of an American for stating so. The Holocaust isnt a blank check to kill Palestinians 100;1 using burning phospherous, or to harvest organs (which Israel coped to last month), or wrecking some poor bastard old lady’s olive trees. Asher is buried in Israel and Haggai aint goin’ nowhere, either.

Comment by GENA METHUEN on 2/07/10 at 2:50 am

Au contraire. You are indeed less of an American for stating so. America is the first nation since Israel (not the modern political entity but the thirty three century old origin) founded upon transcendent principles and as a nation emerging from another. The founders were well aware of the Israelite connection; they considered making Hebrew the national language. These were educated men; unlike you or Robinson. John Adams -

“I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ...

They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”

As an American, you should know that the United States as constituted came about because of Moslem aggression against America. America was formed by Articles of Confederation which did not provide a strong enough protection against the Barbary pirates of North Africa. When Jefferson and Adams asked Tripoli’s ambassador in 1785 by what right they were seizing American vessels and enslaving American captives, they were told that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

It’s a big subject that should keep you busy for a while.

Some ten years later he wrote to a Jewish writer of a travel account “... I could find it in my heart to wish that you had been at the head of a hundred thousand Israelites . . . & marching with them into Judea & making a conquest of that country & restoring your nation to the dominion of it. For I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation.” This long before Herzl was born.

Israel is not he land of the Jews because of the Holocaust, only an intellectual and academic baboon could state that. Israel is perhaps the only legitimate and credible nation in the world, if history is studied in detail. The concept of a non-Jewish Palestinian is a fraud, an imaginary construct, an unfunny joke. Truth be told. Nobody has any interest in killing Arabs who are deluded into thinking they have any national rights in the eternal Jewish homeland, but the wild and evil savagery with which they attack us makes it impossible not to kill at least some of them. Their best option would be to exercise their right of return to their ancestral homelands outside of Israel.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/07/10 at 7:03 pm

“For while the Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.” [4]

Adolf Hitler, a father of modern Israel

> http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/index.htm

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/08/10 at 12:06 am

You happen to be wrong, but the beauty of it is that it doesn’t even matter if you are right. If you 998 people out of a thousand are really worried that two Jews are going to beat you if you let them, then maybe you deserve to lose to the Jewish masters. And before you call me a bigot, remember that you said it, not me. Boooahaha! Incidentally, why do you imagine that it is not the Jew Robinson who is leading you to your doom?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/09/10 at 12:56 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/slideshow?articleId=USTRE6195G920100210#a=2

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/11/10 at 1:20 am

Ooooohhhhh… 9/11…. ominous. The really hard part of this was getting nineteen Al Queda-trained Saudi Arabians all named ‘Muhammed’ to pull it off for us.

While we are here, let’s take note that the farthest borders of Greater Israel as advocated by the most wild-eyed right-wing Kahanist Likudnik settler fanatic types is still a teensy weensy little overpopulated place in the middle of nowhere with no natural resources. The best thing you all can do is let us alone in our own little place.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/11/10 at 10:45 pm

‘for us’?
I doubt that.
‘own little place’
I doubt that.
The 1978 memoir of Nathan Yellin -Mor, one of the leaders of the Stern Gang, is a fascinating example of how ideology shapes reality. He explains the wartime motives behind the Stern gang’s drive to fight the British and make an alliance with the Nazis despite the clear understanding that “Germany had declared war on the Jewish `race.” Yellin-Mor quotes Yair, (Avraham Stern’s underground name), who made a distinction between the “foe” (Britain) and the “arch enemy” (Nazi Germany). Since the “foe is in control of our homeland and denies the Hebrew people statehood and freedom… the presence of the arch enemy must not put off the struggle against the foe ... even for a single day.” Implicit is the fascist ideology of the Stern Gang which dismissed the humanity of the Arabs to be displaced in Palestine just as the Nazis dehumanized the Jews in order to destroy them.”

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/14/10 at 11:32 pm

The Stern gang is irrelevant, much more minor a historical note compared to say Islamic Jihad.  They were disbanded and major acts such as Deir Yassin condemned by the main stream Hagannah.

Yet the Grand Mufti who’s acts predated the Stern gang (riots in 1920, alliance with the Nazis, leader of the Hanzar Brigades which rounded up and massacred 90,000 Bosnians), lead the Palestinian forces against the Jews,  is far more odious:

Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to ERADICATE EVERY LAST JEW FROM PALESTINE AND THE ARAB WORLD. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish people in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: “The Jews are yours.” (Ami Isseroff and Peter FitzGerald-Morris, “The Iraq Coup Attempt of 1941, the Mufti, and the Farhud”)

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0901fea3.asp

Face it - that Jews control even a small part of the “Muslim” world stick in many Muslim’s craw like bad koshary.  It offends them as it offends Allah.  The injustice is that the Arabs who have instigated violence and attacked Jews, who forced hundreds of thousands of Jews from their homes in Arab lands and confiscated their freedom and their lives have never been tried. 

I’ve since discovered that one of the photos posted by the Professor (the one with men on horseback) showed Israeli police removing Jewish settlers from what some would call an illegal Jewish settlement.  Not a Palestinian Arab in sight.  My earlier point that these pictures were shown without context and represented an attempt to indoctrinate rather than stimulate informed comment holds.  He abused his position as a teacher.

Comment by D. Price on 2/16/10 at 8:57 am

To Gena M.
The fact you have stated is fine, but your conclusion does not follow. LeHI, or Fighters for the Freedom of Israel (what you are calling the Stern Gang) was simply the most independent and uncompromising resistance movement against British occupation. They rightly considered Britain to be in a war against the Jewish community of Israel, and acted accordingly. In this they parted with the Irgun and certainly the Haganah. They refused to cut them any slack in spite of the presence of the Nazis. So? Nowhere in this discussion have we mentioned Arabs. When the war turned to the Arabs, they fought them with the same zeal as they fought the British.

Speaking of which, I appreciate your response D. Price, with the minor correction that Deir Yassin as an atrocity is a complete fraud and has been debunked. Deir Yassin was a launching point for attacks on the convoys bearing provisions to the besieged and starving Jerusalem. It was loaded with Iraqui soldiers and the fighting was difficult, ultimately house to house. As usual, Arabs fought behind women. However, just as in Jenin fraud, and just as in the two Qana frauds, the number of Arab casualties was a small fraction of the true number. Unfortunately for the Arabs, the director of thei radio station Dr. Hussein Khalidi exaggerated the number of casualties, adding that children were murdered and pregnant women were raped, neither of which was true. His goal was to attract Arab fighters to exact revenge, but what he really succeeded in doing was to cause a mass panic and flight in the Arab civilian populace. Doh!

Just Google “deir Yassin” debunked. Here is a reference from one of my favorite non-Jewish historians
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/milstein-deir-yassin.htm
but there are many more.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/16/10 at 10:48 pm

Excuse me, that is a good article but it is a support piece for the main article here
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/deir-yassin.htm

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/16/10 at 11:02 pm

Bad boys, bad boys
whut chu gunna do?
whutcha gunna do when Interpol comes for you?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8522595.stm

Editor Judis states in tnr.com that Israel Lobby didnt encourage American invasion of Iraq. NYTimes piece on Mort Zuckerman negats that statement.

Comment by gena methuen on 2/18/10 at 2:43 pm

The New York Times is not an objective news organization. Anyway, chew on this: Israel and the Israel Lobby can do whatever they deem proper for them to do, and America can do likewise. So can I, and so can you. If America does do what Mort Zuckerman wants, it is because they see it in their interest to do so. Lump it.

I don’t know why you bother. You are among the weaker anti-Semites and anti-Zionists in the field.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/18/10 at 9:19 pm

You lump it asshole. Your economy is due to American
welfare. Listen, Robinson is back teaching full classes at UCSB DESPITE a 39% in fees. Foxman was put on a rail headed outta town. I’d say, ‘Hot coals on your head, Semite’ but your probably not even Semite. Iran’s gunna get the bomb and if you guys don’t behave and respect other nations’ rights to mind their own business and shoot off thier mouth your excistance will be that much shorter. There’s more to the USA than FOX NEWS Christains high on giving Israel a cart blanch to pull us into war. We told you to get out of the Suez, we’ll tell you to back-off feom Iran. Don’t you remember when Nixon and Kissinger were doing all they could to keep Israel A-bombless? Now you guys behave, cuz if you don’t the 21st century will make the 20th century seem tame, assholes.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/20/10 at 11:25 pm

You just reminded me of this Wall Street Journal article entitled “The Rest of the World Can Learn a Lot From the Israeli Formula for Growth”.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704509704575019041049672122.html
Light unto the nations and all that, you know. Israel’s Central Bank director successfully navigated the shoals caused by the greed and corruption of the rest of the world and while they have their problems, they did not suffer the same meltdown.

YOu don’t take the long view as we Jews do. What you about to witness in historical terms is all of the antisemites and antizionists shooting themselves and each other in the balls. I know how frustrated you must feel that every time Israel’s situation seems hopeless, something happens to turn it around. An appropriate message in this Purim season. It would all be so much easier for you to accept that the God of Israel is in charge of history, but the likelihood is that you will be joining Robinson and Hitler in that great bunker in the sky.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/21/10 at 7:29 am

In charge of history when Jews were being stuffed in ovens… that God? Oh yeah…you and Him have me way impressed.
Israel has its hands full and to God all his children are equal. You guys think youre special, but we can cure that.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/22/10 at 10:08 pm

I have been following the pathologically anti-Jew comments of Gena Methuen for some time now.  They are clearly parallel to the malignant ravings of the barbarian Arab if not identical.  Come clean now, Gena Methuen, are you a descendant of Ham or merely a pale imitation?

Comment by Alice Rage on 2/23/10 at 4:33 am

We are way impressed with you too. You have been trying to cure us of our specialness for thirty three centuries, and over time we need a scorecard to figure out which pile of dust you are. The Jews are the eternal nation. We were the last nation formed, and we are now the oldest. That should tell you something. In terms of historical forces, our survival alone is miraculous. Your problem is that you can’t accept God’s own words in the Bible, so you have to come up with all kinds of conspiracies to explain it. But other, larger, richer, more powerful, greater nations have all disappeared under the same assaults that have failed to destroy us. Again, the Joooz must have done it, hahaha.

You fool. Look at you and others like you, coming all the way to a Jewish website to threaten us. If you really believed what you are saying, you wouldn’t have the need to validate yourself by convincing us.

By the way, nobody saved the Jews from the ovens. No nation, no politics, no agency, no law, no culture, no values, no civilization. And very important, no religion. Hear that, equal person to God? And now we have Israel. And Israel will be forced not to give up more but to claim more, against its politics, against its activists, against its secularists, against its traitors. How’s the trend working for ya?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/23/10 at 4:47 am

http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2009/07/obama-foxman-and-israels-purpose.html

I am who I am. Up here near the Protestant Jerusalem, 1608. Said we were Cannanites. Set up Munster, then Ulster. That walled city thing…assimulation jumps right over the walls.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/23/10 at 9:40 pm

Incoherent. As they say, a word to the wise is sufficient. A million words to the fool is not enough. so I am not responding to you as much as to any reader who thinks there is no response.

Palestine is a fraud. All of the websites, public opinion, demonstrations, political maneuvering does not obscure the fact that there was no (non-Jewish) Palestine, there is no Palestine, there will be no Palestine, and there should be no Palestine; that the people calling themselves Palestinians overwhelmingly have no roots in Palestine and the very few others have shallow and illegitimate roots; and above all those Arabs have absolutely nothing to do with any ancient people and particularly not with the Canaanites. If they did it would still not entitle them to any rights in Israel, but nobody even talked about Canaanites until about 1996.

The immediate problem is that many people for their own self-validation do not want the Jews to exist (like you); past, present and future; and that includes any Jews like Gilad Atzmon who do not want to exist as Jews. And I’m not talking about speaking Jewish and liking klezmer music and pastrami; I’m talking about manning up and living up to be a Jewish nation.

Here is the larger problem: Political Zionism was taken over from ancient Zionism by secularists who insisted that Zionism had nothing to do with religion, the past or tradition. Fine. So if those Jews divorce themselves from the truth and from the past, then Israel is a man-made entity and that opens the door to any other man-made entity like a phony Palestine.

Deut 32
18. You forgot the [Mighty] Rock Who bore you; you forgot the God Who delivered you.
19. And the Lord saw this and became angry, provoked by His sons and daughters.
20. And He said, “I will hide My face from them. I will see what their end will be, for they are a generation of changes; they are not [recognizable] as My children whom I have reared.
21. They have provoked My jealousy with a non god, provoked My anger with their vanities. Thus, I will provoke their jealousy with a non people, provoke their anger with a foolish nation.

You can ‘pressure’ Jewish politicians into making statements but you can’t change the past or the future. Netanyahu is playing a dangerous game of rope-a-dope with Obama right now, but the God of Israel is still in charge.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/24/10 at 7:56 am

It sounds if he is from Inishowen. Derry is known as the Protestant Jerusalem.
I do agree with you that there is a missing miracle for Israel being occupyied by Right. How it was explained to the outside world front page London Times 10-7-1917 was ‘official sympathy’. Peel Comission never states anything about ‘Right’, either. Get a grip. No parting of the RED SEA by some bearded, staff carrying Semite.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/27/10 at 5:31 pm

It wouldn’t matter.

If the right to Palestine/Israel is established by historic precedence, than the Jews have historic precedence.
If the right to Palestine/Israel is established by legal claim, than the Jews have the superior legal claim.
If the right to Palestine/Israel is established by moral suasion, than the Jews have that.

I could go on but the Jewish claim and right to Palestine/Israel extends farther and deeper than any authority to it, living or dead. The Balfour declaration capped over a century of serious Jewish progress in peacefully and legally re-claiming Palestine/Israel, and was no more than a statement of worldwide recognition of the Jewish claim which included the Arab authorities of the day.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/27/10 at 11:25 pm

Protestant Jerusalem:
http://smith2008.blogspot.com/2008/03/walls-of-londonderry.html
AS for your, “.....re-claiming Palestine/Israel, and was no more than a statement of worldwide recognition of the Jewish claim which included the Arab authorities of the day. “
How can you say that? Go to google books and pull down the chapter ‘Palestine’ from Gail McMillian’s ‘Paris 1919’. She’s David Lloyd George’s gr-daughter. The non-Jew got railroaded due to Britain’s slack concern for overwhelming Euro-Jew immigration.
Being Irish I look at the damage Britain did at any site within her Empire, Derry to Baghdad to Jamestown to Captain Cook, Hawaii. In your case it was British pity and desire for empire. It was the same for Derry. Ever heard of ‘ancient kindred’ claim up here? There’s no inherit Right. Your claim is 2000 years old.
As for “worldwide recognition of the Jewish claim”, by the time 5/14/‘48 rolled around not even the Brits themselves recognized such a thing, let alone the hundreds of millions of people that had no idea about this ‘Israel’ Truman was advised not to recognize and who Stalin aided. Inside jobs don’t get ‘ww recognition’. Judaism is about spirituality, not a patch of dirt in SW Asia formed by the apathy of Britain.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 2/28/10 at 3:55 pm

I’ll comment on any political entity, yours or othrwise.
Any claim to do so is an affront to God is bullshet. You guys need to grow up.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 3/02/10 at 9:56 pm

You are both confused and confusing, not to mention projecting some Celtic nonsense on the Jewish issue. I couldn’t care less about Londonderry or British history, policy or geopolitical agendas. I thought I made it clear that the Jewish right to Palestine/Israel does not derive from Britain or Lloyd George. As Disraeli famously said, “Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the Right Honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon”. We are not the same; capische?

Taking the last first, we can talk about God but I didn’t bring it up in my last post. I brought up history, legality and moral right. Now you may happen to be a Sinead O’Conner-type but a national basis in a faith-based society is as good a principle as any. What is the Irish claim to Ireland anyway? You were not the first to inhabit it, and you came in with your Druids and blue paint and cannibalistic rites and whatnot. There is no claim to Palestine/Israel that does not involve God. Every invader rode in on the flag of their God. If you take the side of the Arabs, you are simply choosing their Allah.

The fact that our claim is 2000 years old (actually 3700 years old but let’s not quibble) just goes to prove my point. Your point may be that it is obsolete; however if you apply a brain cell to the matter you will be forced to admit that would only be true if the Jews disappeared or relinquished their claim. Every other claim is that much later.

All of these issues are fully discussed in http://eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/ which is a condensation of an excellent book on the topic; “Battleground: Fact & Fantasy in Palestine” by Samuel Katz. I direct you specifically to begin in the beginning, ‘Continuous Jewish Presence in the Holy Land’ http://eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/presence.html

In it you will note that the Jews were in fact the only constant factor in a parade of foreign invaders and occupiers, including the Arabs.

The story of the Jews fit perfectly into the scheme of national self-determination gaining currency at the time. The Jews are a nation whether in exile or not under rule of law, complete with a homeland. You grow up (although you will never catch up to us).

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/04/10 at 10:47 pm

You attack Iran first I’ll catch up to you, count on it.
Your god is deaf and blind to you as he has been as so many nations over the years have deported you. How many times must your ass be made into a lamp shade before you awaken?
Get used to a nuclear Iran cuz it will be the iron fist that breaks you of your murderous campaign worldwide.
http://www.oudaily.com/news/2010/mar/04/column-nuclear-optimism—-or-how-i-learned-stop-wo/

Comment by Gena Methuen on 3/06/10 at 3:58 pm

I see that my responses have struck you dumb. or perhaps you were dumb to begin with. Is that really all you’ve got?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/07/10 at 9:00 pm

When I have some pu-nie occupier talking big I wink at my Iranian friend behind you and together like bookends will compact Israel into THE LEVANTINE DUNGHILL you fear. Israel will be more democratic and multi-religous, ethnic than now. The Zionists will understand theyre place in the world, understand equality better. Thats the bottom line. You can run around and say youre special still if you want. May I touch thy pant garment as you pass, oh wonderful superior Masta?

Comment by Gena Methuen on 3/08/10 at 2:47 pm

Reading your stuff is like watching a tennis match. You basically talk to yourself and answer yourself.

If I can get in a word, I will just note that it is impossible for Israel to be more democratic and multi-religious and ethnic, just as it is impossible for Zionism not to be special. But I would prefer you not to touch my pant garment. The thought will have be sufficient.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/08/10 at 10:50 pm

Well, With Nut-tin-yahoo spiting in Biden’s face I think its time to rumble.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 3/11/10 at 1:51 pm

This was actually a lucky incident, as Biden was never going to get a chance to run for President but Hillary Clinton might, and this brought out her evil side. Netanyahu apologized to Biden just to shut him up nut these issues have to come a head anyway.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/13/10 at 7:37 pm

Bibi should have just left a doggy bag with the busboy for Biden. And, let thunder thighs throw a fit with the palace indians. If she’d flash a cankle at Mahmoud he’d pack up Arafat’s corpse and head back to the Hejaz.

Comment by Alice Rage on 3/13/10 at 8:04 pm

Good one. I was thinking the same thing - “So sorry, we finished eating for the evening… care to join us for some television in the den?”

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/13/10 at 8:12 pm

Like Eve discovering effect of forbidden fruit,
General David Petraeus told the Armed Services Committee earlier today:

The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR [area of operational responsibility]. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.”

Comment by Gena Methuen on 3/17/10 at 8:37 pm

Let’s be honest. When he worked for Bush you were calling him General ‘Betray-us’ Petraeus. Now he’s your boy.

But like Israeli leftists loyal to foreign agendas that disregard Jewish rights, claims, lives and final status, Petraeus is right in the small view. If America wanted to experiment with losing its soul by collaborating with evil (as Petraeus himself has done to retain his job), they might indeed take the Islamic world at their word and throw Israel under the bus. it wouldn’t work of course, as the Muslims are already getting blow jobs from all of the political, social and economic enemies of the US and we can’t realistically bribe the Muslims any more than they are already being bribed. This is a lesson that Israel has learned painfully and repeatedly.

You are also right that the special relationship between America and Israel that has existed since LBJ is over, whether this is acknowledged publicly or not. I believe it would be better to get that out into the open, especially before the midterm elections and before Iran has an operational bomb. The best thing to come out of the latest flap is Hilary’s telephone tantrum to Netanyahu. I hope it gets out on Youtube.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/18/10 at 3:05 am

65th anniversary of King David Hotel bombing this July. Fly down and lick some Brit bones, oh Hibri?????...whatever it took I suppose. Paul Johnson in ‘history of the jews’ says some of the brit soldiers hung WERE JEWISH for Pete’s sake. Woops, St. Pete was a turncoat.

Comment by Gena Methuen on 1/25/11 at 9:40 pm

I am compelled to repeat a point I made earlier - “LeHI, or Fighters for the Freedom of Israel (what you are calling the Stern Gang) was simply the most independent and uncompromising resistance movement against British occupation. They rightly considered Britain to be in a war against the Jewish community of Israel, and acted accordingly… They refused to cut them any slack in spite of the presence of the Nazis.”

So what’s your point? That war is hell? Maybe the Brits’ stinkin’ bones were in the wrong place at the wrong time. And they were warned as you know. Now if the Jews had bombed the King Arthur hotel (or James, or Charles, or Henry, or Edward, you get the idea) in England, you might have a conversation.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/25/11 at 11:13 pm

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