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February 9, 2010 6:22 pm PST

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>>The reality, though, is we’re all responsible
>>for Madoff. Muslims, Christians and Jews, Orthodox, >>Conservative and Reform, secular and sectarian.
>>It doesn’t matter what strain Madoff came from
>>or belongs too.

Sorry, Brad, but that’s a load of carp.  If thats the case then we’re all responsible for Osama Bin Laden and Lashkar-e-Taiba - in fact you could extend your premise and assign responsibility for Hitler to us all. 

I agree our being Jewish does not make us responsible or deserving of shame.  But our Jewish tendency to honour the accumulation of wealth as the peak of all human achievements does assign responsibility to us, and does make us deserving of shame.

Keith Wolfson
Sydney, Australia

Comment by Keith Wolfson on 12/17/08 at 10:15 pm

If Madoff was involved in Orthodox life, how can anyone but the rabbis say, outside the most legalistic judgment, that he isn’t Orthodox?
———————-
There are plenty of non-Orthodox Jews connected to Orthodox causes, but that does not make one Orthodox.  One is Orthodox if he or she believes that the entire Torah was given at Sinai to the Jews by God, and if he or she is observant of the mitzvot (the key mitzvot being keeping kosher and observing the Sabbath).

Madoff was not Orthodox by any stretch of the imagination, even if he may have been associated with Orthodox institutions and individuals.

Comment by Michael feldstein on 12/18/08 at 11:25 am

Wolfson, where do you get those Jew hating facts ? Before you repeat and promote the most vile Jew hating stereotypes, do some research and back it up with facts, or stop besmirching the Jewish People. Jews are less concerned with money than similarly educated Gentiles. Thats why they win so many Nobel Prizes. Historically and still today, Jewish scholarship is the most important thing.
Do you know any wealthy gentiles, or wealthy African Americans? Do they value money less than Jews ? If Jews are so money grubbing and money hungry, why do they give more to charity? True, we all would like our fellow Jews to be perfect, but that is not the standard anyone should judge us by.

Comment by Martini "kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 12:03 pm

Mr. Wolfson: How can Jews be so materialistic and money grubbing if they gave Madoff over $1.5 billion in charitable assets to manage. Sorry to burst a Jew hating false sterotyp but facts are a stubborn thing and can eventually come out.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 1:31 pm

Whether or not Mr. Madoff was Orthodox or Reform is beside the point.  It will not matter when he is imprisoned for his crimes against the community.  He can convert to Christianity for all I care.

Comment by W. Shapiro on 12/18/08 at 7:51 pm

jews win so many Nobel Prizes because they give them to democrats and not republicans.

Comment by kevin on 12/19/08 at 12:11 pm

I loved the comment ” we’re all responsible for Madoff. Muslims, Christians and Jews, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform, secular and sectarian.”

Not really.  It’s a terrible crime, unfortunately, typical of our times.  It is a crime of values, of which Madoff has none.    Madoff’s ethics and the fact that he could defraud billions of dollars from predominantly Jewish investors DOES, very clearly illuminate the lack of morals Madoff has.  And this is directly attributable to his ethics, not necessarily shared with Christian ethics.  It is something for the Jewish community to stand up and take notice of.  We, as Jews should think deeply about our tendency to place such enormous importance on wealth gathering.

Comment by H. Gill on 12/19/08 at 9:41 pm

That’s capitalism, not Judaism.

As our tradition states: ‘Who is wealthy?  He who is contented with his lot.’ (Pirke Avot)

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/19/08 at 9:49 pm

There is enough zevel in this Madoff affair to fertilize anti-semitism for the next hundred years.  It’s a terrible, dreadful thing.

And Rabbi Adlerstein’s attempt to pretend Madoff is not one of us because he doesn’t keep Shabbos is a sad failure.  Madoff publicly identifies with Orthodox Judaism and his support is welcomed by huge Orthodox institutions with open arms.  He’s Orthodox enough for YU and his shul, he’s Orthodox.  What a shame to see a knowledgeable rabbi try to dodge the truth with so transparent a ruse.  It just adds fuel to the fire that Jews are slippery tricksters.

He is yes a huge problem for the Jewish people.  He’s probably the biggest ganef of all time.  We should up front pointedly distance ourselves from him immediately, condemn his actions as absolutely NOT Jewish, and do all we can to show the world what is true—we find him as reprehensible as anyone else does.

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/20/08 at 11:14 am

Anybody using ‘zevel’ and ‘ganef’ (you phony) in a forum like this is the slippery trickster, especially with a name like ‘Chaim’. Obviously we distance ourselves, condemn his actions and show the world we find him reprehensible. But ‘kodem kol’ (you phony), it is more important to do what Rabbi Adlerstein is doing (and I am trying to do), which is to establish the context for all this nonsense and remind everyone that Jews and Judaism have no ownership or responsibility for people who violate Judaism.

And your comment that he is Orthodox enough for YU and his shul (nobody knows which one that is if any) is just plain stupid, as every institution tolerantly includes people with a range of people and most especially liberal ones that skate on the edge by definition. YU is such a place, and five minutes ago Madoff had a fantastic reputation ‘bein adam l’chaveiro’ (you phony).

Go fish, ‘Fisher’.

I wasn’t really going to do this, but here goes. Michael Feldstein said it short and sweet, but the question “But does that even matter?” indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the term ‘Orthodox’ (as applied to Judaism).

To me it matters because Orthodoxy is not just a culture or lifestyle but foremost an ideology reflected in practice.  The trinity of Judaism is God, Torah and Israel. Timeless Judaism is a name for a personal and national commitment to a relationship with God defined by Torah laws and values. I will spare you the quotations but the Bible is loaded with statements to that effect.

As long as Judaism was defined by the above ideology alone, culture was irrelevant. Jewish practice produces a culture but culture is not the essence of Judaism. Orthodoxy is a journey, not a destination.

Once the balance was disturbed, culture filled the gap and assumed a false importance. There are people who may appear very Jewish, even Orthodox, even chareidi by virtue of their attachment to the culture but not the ideology. This is the source of all the back-and-forth bickering and often phony outrage and accusations of hypocrisy etc.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/20/08 at 8:06 pm

Ben Plonie:

Your comment that it is ‘stupid’ to say that YU was giving credibility to Madoff by placing him on their board and making him the chair (or whatever it’s called) of their business school is so…well…interesting!

Let me advise you that every other living person in the world would consider it an honor and a testimony of faith in one’s business practices to be named to the board of an enormous institution running hundreds of millions of dollars, and certainly to be put in charge of a large business school.

YU and our leading Rabbis did not sufficiently condemn the kind of outrageous robbery we’re talking about here, and that grave fact opens us up to many more years of much worse anti-semitic attacks.  We wanted the PoXpe to have criticized the Nazis, but he didn’t.  We absolutely must come out in concert with a complete and speedy condemnation of robbery, especially $50 billion by a brilliant Jew, if we are to weather this storm.  If you can’t get that, then, well, think about it.

But what I found so wanting in your comment was connection of facts to what you were saying.  Most glaring was your toss, “Obviously we distance ourselves, condemn his actions and show the world we find him reprehensible.”  Can you please provide any evidence?  Not only did I never see anywhere in Cross Currents where Rabbi Adlerstein distanced us, condemned and especially “showed the world we find him reprehensible,” but furthermore you yourself condemn me as “stupid” and a “phony” for calling for it to be done.

Remember.  Our purpose is to defend and publicize Torah, not to deflect criticism of Jews that might actually be right.  The Torah prohibits robbery quite clearly.

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/21/08 at 11:26 pm

It is inappropriate for anyone to comment officially about an ongoing criminal case. We Jews invented due process. So far, there have only been hearsay allegations. I can think of a lot of reasons why the lynch mob can have egg on their face . For one, could Madoff be or could he have been mentally ill ? After all the FBI affidavit said he told the informant he was afraid he was going to “lose it”.

Why does the Jewish community have to condemn Madoff anyways ? Does each Nobel prize winner thank the Nobel committee on behalf of the Jewish community. Does a Rabbi publicly speak out about how proud they are that “Chaim Doe” won a Nobel prize on behalf of the Jewish people? Would anyone expect him to ?

PopeX was a head of state. He should have condemned another head of state, Hitler.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/22/08 at 10:52 am

Martin
Let me caution you against taking ‘Chaim’ at face value. I did not call him a phony just to insult him. He is a phony because he is taking the discussion into ridiculous directions, laughing all the way incidentally. There is no need to defend or even to condemn Madoff. Not our table. I cannot improve on “Jews and Judaism have no ownership or responsibility for people who violate Judaism.”

Chimbo,
You get no points by contending with words you put in my mouth. I said it was stupid to make the Jewish community or institutions responsible for Madoff’s actions. A couple of weeks ago it was a mutual honor and a smart move to recruit a top business and philanthropic figure, a former chairman of NASDAQ with a spotless reputation to a board. They did not give him ‘credibility’, any more than they gave Sy Sims credibility naming their school after him. Is Sy Sims Orthodox? Who the hell cares? He is supporting the institution.

Your real hypocrisy here is in invoking that exaggerated posturing of the internet cynic in calling for ‘sufficient’ condemnation. I would first ask who you are to judge someone like Rabbi Adlerstein. The real response is that it really goes without saying. It’s not a Jewish crime and not a Jewish jurisdiction to fix it. Bernie Madoff and his crimes have nothing to do with the Torah and that is the message. A token disclaimer for reference is plenty. Maybe it’s the securities industry needs sufficient condemnation.

A second response is that there is nothing sufficient for nudnicks like you. “We must come out in concert or we won’t weather the storm?” We certainly need a leader for that, how about you? Dummy. Do a little creative Googling with your seatbelt on. Maybe your rabbi didn’t bring it up this weekend; mine did. But you could have shouting demonstrations, press conferences and a march on Washington, and you would be back with another sneer and another issue since it is obvious to me that you are more interested in putting Jews and the Jewish establishment down then in any particular issue. Kindly provide ‘evidence’ that you as ‘Chaim Fisher’ have had any positive comment or contribution to the Jews or Jewish life anywhere anytime that does not involve carping criticism. Unless of course you were born last week and learned to type yesterday. And don’t waste our time with insufficient evidence.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/22/08 at 1:05 pm

Martini: I very carefully never said he did it.  We are only working off reports that there’s no money left and he said it was all a Ponzi scheme, and that appears to be 100% certain Your excuse that he was mentally ill is transparent and an insult to the intelligence and very dangerous to anti-semites looking to attack us.  Better stop it fast.

Plonie: I know rabbis who are incredibly superior to Rabbi Adlerstein who have recently called Madoff “The biggest ganef in all history.”  But take a look at Rabbi Blech of YU itself quoted in the NYT today: “If you cheat and steal, you cannot claim you are a good Jew.”

I care about saving the Jewish people.  Sometimes you have to do something as difficult as condemning the biggest ganef in all history to help them.  If you won’t do it, you just might be part of the problem…

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/22/08 at 11:25 pm

If you know great rabbis who have condemned Madoff, and Rabbi Blech who is enough of a voice of YU as anyone who has condemned him, then what is your problem? Today Adlerstein; tomorrow Badlerstein, Cadlerstein and Dadlerstein? I have condemned him myself twenty times, but I’m not making a permanent career out of it. Madoff’s case is now in the right hands and we can all wait for events to unfold.

Rabbi Adlerstein neither defended Madoff nor failed to condemn him, but
his article on this at Cross Currents which is the flip side of this one has quite a different concern, similar to the one I have made around here. Which is simply to remind us that Madoff does not represent the Orthodox and the Orthodox don’t represent Madoff. Read it. If a few million people pretty much live busy and demanding lives ethically to a significantly greater degree than average, then it is infantile and destructive to nag everyone to praise and condemn and support and rebuke and disown and admit and deny whatever you consider the issue of the day. This is the technique of the professional Lashon Hara websites, who do nothing positive for anyone except bravely expose as many real or imagined failings of others as they can.

If you want to save the Jewish people, it is more productive to help those who are defending their name against slander and innuendo then challenging them to fetch your stick.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/23/08 at 12:08 am

Please, Plonie, put your words down in one line that means something.  For instance, can you explain how the fact that Rabbi Adlerstein did not condemn Madoff means, as you weirdly claim, that “Rabbi Adlerstein neither defended Madoff nor failed to condemn him”? 

I don’t know what dictionary you’re using, but “failed to condemn” means “did not condemn.”  Period.  But you probably have some slippery lashon that’s supposed to make you right technically.  Like Adlerstein saying, “Whew, he’s not Shomer Shabbos.”  Well, my friend, it’s exactly these kind of slippery tricks that are so bad for us.

I mean, really.  Gentlemen, this is a football.

Say.  It’s.  Wrong.

Your claim that “I have condemned him myself twenty times.”  Can you please provide links to those twenty times?  Or even ten?

And your exagerration of my request is also way off base.  I don’t want to wallow in it.  I want one time.  The president.  Of YU.  And major United States rabbis.  To say:  “Stealing fifty billion dollars is a huge sin and we condemn it in all possible terms.”  Then they really can go back to work.

They did it in Israel.  When Amir killed Rabin, the biggest rabbonim of Eretz Yisrael stood right up and condemned him absolutely and in full charif.  Are you American rabbis better than they are?

It’ll take two minutes.  Just do it.

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/23/08 at 5:43 am

Chaim: You state it is 100% certain it is a Ponzi Scheme. Do you understand the legal system? How it works ? Did you read the complaint? It is based on hearsay (potentially later admittable as an admission by a party oponent), which is enough for a warrant, but not enough to convict.
The assets are going to be determined by the trustee’s
report, which has not been produced.

In Jewish law, and criminal law, state of mind is always relevant, in civil law, it only sometimes is.

I am not saying Madoff is legally insane (usually defined as he did not knwo what he was doing was wrong and he could not control his actions, the Hinckley Federal standard). I am saying that your conviction, and/or conclusions are premature. Let’s judge on the facts. What is the rush to Judgment all about, pleasing the gentiles ?

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/23/08 at 7:31 am

No ‘Chaim’. Perhaps you were absent from Talmud class that day, but I said “Neither ... nor failed to condemn”. A little subtle unless you read the entire sentence. If you can’t keep up with the action then stick to the Bunny Blog.

I heard on the news yesterday that ivory poaching is way up in Kenya this year, and I know for a fact that Rabbi Adlerstein neither defended it nor failed to condemn that either. Get it? Maybe he condemned it, maybe not. He was addressing a completely different point in his call to Brad and in his own blog.

If all you wanted was a one-liner, you can skip the rest. You have your answer. But I’ll continue with your other issues, italics mine.

As for my condemnations, I’m not providing evidence. Use the handy little search box and dig them up yourself. I’m still waiting for you to provide evidence that you play a constructive role in saving the Jewish people that doesn’t involve demanding that other people do something. Or to “defend and publicize Torah” without just saying ‘neener, neener, neener’.

If Madoff was nominally shomer shabbos then we would still not be responsible for his other sins, but we (Rabbi Adlerstein et al.) would feel a little more responsible to draw that distinction. That’s not a slippery trick. Not, as Martini here says to join a lynch mob. I knew someone attending my Modern Orthodox shul when I was a kid who drove to shul on Shabbos and parked around the corner (and I know some today not so kosher). Should I have outed him or got the Rabbi to take stand? What would be my (or the rabbi’s) responsibility if I saw him eating a cheeseburger or renting porn? Feeding someone else a cheesebuger, maybe.

People who live their whole lives learning and teaching and promoting Torah don’t have to call a press conference to condemn theft and fraud. You don’t seem to comprehend that condemnation can have a tinge of acceptance of responsibility in some sense. I told you earlier that Madof has nothing to do with Torah and vice-versa. There are two positive approaches; private condemnation and public damage control and reassurance and forward-looking and optimism. Your approach is counterproductive because it is exactly the opposite.

It’s only a quirk in our law that allows the media to feast on criminal stories in progress. In England we wouldn’t even know his name. We can say whatever we want but public figures cannot. Richard Joel issued a statement; it was less about Madoff than about YU and its financial status post-Madoff, And that’s as it should be. My rabbi talked it, and I came across this one “Rabbi Muskin of Young Israel of Century City in Los Angeles was livid from the pulpit, at his Shabbat sermon today and denounced the worst “chillul hashem and disgrace to our people in recent history.. and all because of greed”. Once again, good stuff is good and bad stuff is bad. In your terms, if we can’t get the Israeli Ambassador and Bob Dylan and Rahm Emanuel and the Chief Rabbi of Israel by this afternoon is Rabbi Muskin wasting his time, or do we have to wait for a petition drive? TTFN, it’s a new news cycle, and Madoff is still a pisher next to AIG. There are not only bigger ganovim in history, there are bigger ganovim today.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/23/08 at 9:26 am

Gee, Plonie, even your MO Rabbi could have handled that Talmud question better than your job.

If Rabbi Adlerstein wrote an article about ivory poaching and failed to condemn it, then that would indeed be called “failed to condemn.”  He wrote an article about what the world thinks about us and the biggest ganof in all time and he failed to condemn it, he did indeed fail.

AIG did not steal, they lost.  Nobody in AIG is accused of having run the whole business as a fake.

But listen, get your feelings out, maybe you’ll sleep better.  It’s all of us who’ll pay for the antisemitism this drags us into.  I just wanted to help, that’s all…

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/23/08 at 10:30 am

Re-read the article. It is called “Thoughts on the Madoff Debacle”, not “Thoughts on Bernard Madoff”. The focus of the article is on the reactions in the Jewish community and the anti-Jewish communities; the Orthodox community and the non- and anti-Orthodox communities. Nothing seems too obtuse for your brain. Only you would imagine that writing an article about elephant poaching in Kenya would be ambiguous without the author pompously trumpeting “Killing elephants illegally for their tusks is a huge sin and I condemn it in all possible terms.”

Try again and focus. I did not say that he “failed to condemn” I said that “he did not fail to condemn”; i.e elsewhere. Wherever. We do know he did not approve of these actions, we just don’t know if he made a point of expressing it, just like I am sure you didn’t know about Rabbi Muskin, just like I am sure you never heard of Rabbi Adlerstein before Brad brought him up in this blog, just like it makes no difference to the ideas that we are discussing.

I do happen to think that the financial industry pulled a giant ripoff of the American taxpayers lately, but if you don’t like AIG we can use Enron so maybe you’ll sleep better. And don’t let the antisemites disturb your sleep; they don’t need Madoff to hate Jews and they won’t hate Jews less if we fall all over ourselves condemning and apologizing. As it is they are having a great laugh about the whole thing; your immature approach would keep them laughing a lot longer. You seem to have no idea how defensive it would appear for Jewish leaders to be forced to condemn theft and fraud, as if without that they could be accused of accepting and tolerating theft and fraud.

To use your predictably mistaken example, when Rabin was assassinated, there were many anti-violence statements, and the normally articulate Netanyahu was reduced to blabbering ‘homina homina homina’ tying to distance himself from Amir. Netanyahu was poised to win big after the disastrous Oslo accords (stay tuned, Rahm Emanuel was an architect of the Oslo Accords under Clinton).

Neither Netanyahu nor the Likud had anything to do with Amir or the assassination, but they lost by their nebbish response to it. If they had come out strongly in opposition to the slanderers as opposed to their own principled opposition, they probably would have won. Many people including me feel that the Amir/Rabin affair was engineered as a repeat of the Arlosoroff fraud affair which long ago sucessfully sent the Jabotinsky factions into political and actual exile for years to come.

And so with Rabbi Adlerstein. I subscribe to his approach, not being defensive for things he (we) are not responsible for.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/23/08 at 11:45 am

Take a look at this article in the NYT, it’s as stuffed with Jewish condemnation as the Xxas stockings of the anti-semites were stuffed by Madoff:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/us/24jews.html?hp

No, it isn’t ‘Orthodox’ rabbis condemning him.  But it’s loaded with quotes from Tal-mud and To-rah, so for the goyim it’s probably about the same.

Some French banker just killed himself because he invested over a billion of his clients’ money with Madoff.  Any Jew who wants the Popxe to criticize the Holocaust, or the Germans to pay reparations, or the Arabs to criticize terror, will also condemn the actions Madoff is accused of.

Any Jew who thinks its okay for the Popxe and the Germans to forget about the Holocaust, and the Arabs to ignore terror, can freely ignore Madoff.  You choose.

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 12/23/08 at 12:54 pm

False analogy. This is why I insist you are a phony. Either a non-Jew or more likely a twisted Jew.

The Orthodox Jews, and in fact all of the Jews are not responsible for Madoff. As you state there are ample Jewish sources and values against his actions. It was not a Jewish action, he did not do it because he was Jewish, he didn’t do it for the Jews or because of the Jews, no Jews benefited from it. I could go on in this vein. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see it.

We didn’t want the Pope (‘Popxe’, give me a break) to condemn the Holocaust, we wanted him to stop it. Fully one third of Germans under Hitler were Catholics, that’s right, in the land of Martin Luther. Nobody can tell me that the Pope could not have undercut Hitler for a third of his population, and the more so in majority-Catholic France and Italy and Spain and especially Poland and elsewhere in Europe. Your big schtick is rabbis condemning a scam artist; how about the Pope condemning Hitler? He could have stopped the Holocaust in its tracks and saved millions of lives. Just Jews of course, but not chopped liver. Pope ‘Pius, what a pious guy. They say he was worried about being attacked; well, that’s why he gets to sit in the big throne.

But the Protestants cannot be left off the hook either. We will never forgive them for their hypocrisy, and may they roast in hell forever.

And there are a tiny handful of Arabs that condemn terror, the rest are evil a$$hole savages.

It is not a ‘choice’ or a comparison except to a Jewish antisemite. Your contention is childish. Every one of these things absolutely dwarfs Madoff’s crimes. Madoff is terrible, but not even on the radar with those crimes.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/23/08 at 7:37 pm

Rabbi Kahane told me on a number of occasions that the word anti-semite is the wrong word. It should be “jew hater”.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/23/08 at 7:58 pm

Two reactionary followers of the racist rabbi in a row!

Who’ll try for three?

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/23/08 at 8:07 pm

Kahane was involved in a law suit to provide kosher food for Jewish prisoners. Web guy, google the term “kosher food”. You have probably never had it. And actually web guy, if you would have shown the slightest concern for a fellow Jew receiving justice, there would have been no World Trade Center I bombing.

Web Guy, do they teach history to you guys there, like they do here in “Bloomfield” ?

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/23/08 at 8:23 pm

Kahane Tzadek, oops… I mean - Kahane was right. Technically. The term looks like some general category but according to Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, “Antisemitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews”. I almost always am told “Arabs can’t be antismites because they are semites.” According to Hitler they were ‘honorary Aryans.

League of Antisemites (Antisemiten-Liga) Germany 1879
Antisemitic League of France 1889
Christian Social Union of the Parliament and of the Anti-Semitic Union of the Diet of Lower Austria
Alliance Anti-semitique Universelle in Bucharest 1895

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_League_of_France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemite

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/23/08 at 10:18 pm

Perhaps its fitting - as tomorrow (my time) is the day the birth is remembered, celebrated, and mourned of the most famous, infamous, loved, hated, honoured and reviled Jew ever born - to find an empathetic path of agreement and disagreement.  After all, whatever or whomever you think he was, Jesus did live, he was Jewish, and he did try to teach people to honour and to forgive.

Keith Wolfson
Sydney, Australia

Comment by Keith Wolfson on 12/23/08 at 11:05 pm

Homie don’t play that.

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/23/08 at 11:18 pm

It is utterly amazing what I am reading. Half the posts here are trying to back peddle this travesty by saying he was mentally ill??! He was sane as the rest of the Wallstreet cabal raping,and pillaging. I think the Jewish community better get out of their comfy communities. There is a very large,and growing outrage ,and it is definately anti-semetic,and growing. The names on the bill for our current situation are: Greenspan, Paulson, Bernake, Frank ,Mdoff etc etc. If we fall further into a depression I think the blame will be squarely by association, and not so unjusttly by some of the comments here.

Comment by Fred Wilson on 12/24/08 at 4:47 pm

I don’t agree with a defense either, just a disengagement with the issue. I personally think he lost rather than stole the money, but that’s as far as my benefit of the doubt goes. I don’t really know.

Neither Madoff nor Greenspan, Paulson, Bernake, Frank are working for the Jews. To hell with all of them.

And yes, the antisemites will blame all the Jews, and all the bears will still crap in the woods.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/24/08 at 5:35 pm

All true. But will the pope still be Catholic?

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 12/24/08 at 5:44 pm

I am glad the Jew hating is once again appearing on the site. It is the most educational thing on here.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/24/08 at 6:23 pm

My father told me 60 years ago: Many Jews are more clever than the average population, but many other are way more stupid, independently of their social standing.

Paraphrasing this big truth, I say:
Many Jews are decent and truthworthy, but a small minority are the type represented by Madoff (a sample of the stupid ones are the swindled by him) 

And please spare me the discussion if he is Orthodox or not: we are all Jews.

What the comments fail to address: The Madoff type has nested in Wall Sreet, where they are dominant. And this Wall Street Maffia could be responsible for the resurge of anti-semitism (not dead today), aside to give moral weapons to the Moslem extremists and terrorists.

The term Maffia is very appropriate, as this phenomena is a mirror of what happened with the Italian, specifically the Sicilians: these are good, decent nd hard working people, trying to shake off the criminal shadow of the Maffia. And infortunately, in the last years the Wall Street Maffia is making more damage as the original Sicilian “Onorabile Societa” and US “Cosa Nostra” together.

Therefore, if the Maffia must be eliminated and the Italian be on the forefront of this battle. these criminal “Unser Leut” must be execrated and the Jews lead the attack !!

So please stop these byzantine discussions and acknowledge the problem !!

Pls. excuse my bad English !!

Comment by caminito on 12/24/08 at 11:53 pm

Your English is pretty good, it’s the logic that is not so hot. Your central point is that the antisemites and the Moslem extremists and terrorists will gain a moral weapon against the Jews based on the Wall Street Mafia. I have read a lot of this material lately and there is not one thing anyone is saying that they did not say before the scandal. The antisemites and the Moslems don’t need new reasons, and Jews ‘leading the attack!!’ won’t take away their reasons.

Anyway how should they attack in your opinion? Have Madoff killed? Everybody is already commenting on the issue and defining it. And it makes a big difference if he is Orthodox. Just saying ‘spare me’ is too simplistic. An Orthodox person is one who has knowledge and confidence in God and the Torah directing every other aspect of life in a positive and productive manner. Being Orthodox says “I am a Jew first before I am a human being, a social being, a sexual being, a professional, soldier, craftsman or businessperson, a citizen or lodge or guild or club member.” And so on. And before anyone comments on the ‘soldier’ and ‘citizen’ inclusions, just remember that the ‘following orders’ defense was denied at Nuremberg, meaning that if a government was to require you to violate your conscience, you are free to perform civil disobedience to maintain it and none can demean you on that basis.

Meir Lansky and Bugsy Segal were Jews too like all of us, but they were not Jews in good standing. Madoff was, but not religiously. If anything this points up the failure of the model of the NON-Orthodox ‘good’ Jew; someone who is a splendid ethical goodhearted fellow who is ‘as good a Jew as anyone else’.

So - I would like to acknowledge the problem; what’s the problem?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/25/08 at 12:55 am

Most of this discussion is simply silly.  Dishonest people come in all shapes, sizes, and religions.  Whoever they are and whatever they believe (or claim to believe), they must roundly be condemned.

Comment by RCP on 12/25/08 at 1:30 am

Right! Away with him, away with him, crucify him Bad Madoff! Bad bad Madoff! There’s my two cents.

What people are saying here is that Jews should condemn him more than anyone else, and some are saying the Orthodox should condemn him most of all.

This began to go downhill when our leader, Chaim Fisher stated ” We should up front pointedly distance ourselves from him immediately, condemn his actions as absolutely NOT Jewish, and do all we can to show the world what is true—we find him as reprehensible as anyone else does.”

No matter that this has been done already, the job will never be done until the last Jew on earth personally throws a tomato at Madoff, unto all of our generations.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/25/08 at 5:17 am

Madoff may have been affiliated with Orthodox Jews but that doesn’t make him orthodox.
Even if he was “orthodox”, that doesn’t mean that orthodox Jews believe it’s okay to steal or fraud people.
The man made big mistakes. He committed a huge desecration of Hashem’s name. World Jewry will have to suffer the consequences.
Hopefully he’ll do Teshuva for himself.
May Hashem bring the Moshiach Bimheira B’yameinu

Comment by Eliezer on 12/25/08 at 7:55 am

Ben Plonie (who sleeps not much!) / RCP

I must insist that my English is not so good, as you have missed my point. Lets complement my position. I agree with RCP that bad apples are anywhere.

1)Therefore I am not proposing to “kill” Madoff, not even to concentrate Jewish action against him. I am advocating that Jews must accept the fact that a important group of Madoff-like guys (not many numerically, but carrying a lot of weight) have infiltrated Wall Street and similar institutions elsewhere and constitute a danger not only economically, but by solidifying an image of “bad Jews”.
Therefore, this must be addressed !!

2) I do not think we shall distract ourselves by discussing the merits of Orthodoxy (remember Byzantium ??. Factually, I forgot to mention that here is another blatant parallel between the Sicilian and Wall Street Maffia. Both of their capos boast to be religious active individuals helping the needed, the first Catholics, the second Jewish.

Fact is they pose as religious and masculine Mother Theresas of Calcutta to hide their criminality, some of them even have convinced themselves that by acting so, they become better persons.  Therefore I am speaking here of Jews in the “racial” (I do not find a better word), as well as of Sicilian in the clan sense, both(and here is again a parallel) influenced by the terrible history of their people !!

And I agree with you, Ben Plonie, that today’s Moslem terrorists and Anti-Semites do not need more arguments to maintain their position. But this is again not the issue: what we should avoid that other, DECENT PEOPLE, begin to share their views !!!

And breast pounding, stating that guys like Madoff are not “real” Jews, as the latter are good people, surly does not help !! Such argument is acceptable for Budhists, masons and any other group, but not for JEWS! Thousand of years history support this unfortunate but more than real FACT !!

The fighting people of ISRAEL has dispelled the age old image of the coward, complaining JEW !! Now, lets do the same by acting collectively against this what I call the Wall STREET MAFFIA, so to eliminate also the “greedy and scheming” perception !!

Comment by caminito on 12/25/08 at 8:10 am

Orthodox Jews are no more responsible for Bernard Madoff’s behavior than Fundamentalist Christians are responsible for the the few who bomb abortion clinics.  And the few who go against the laws of their respective religion are likely not observant to it in many other ways.

Comment by Sue Weinstein on 12/25/08 at 8:10 am

I don’t blame Jews for this fraud; I blame Madoff. But just as there is an anti-semitic element that wrongly seeks to blame Jews in every instance, so is there a Jewish element that wrongly seeks to absolve Jews in every instance. Take, for example, the media portrayal of Madoff. Although no one has portrayed Madoff favorably, the pro-Jewish element has manipulated this story to portray Jews—once again—as victims. Just the other day, I opened the Wall Street Journal to read an Op-ed piece entitled “Madoff Exploited the Jews.” Slowly but surely, this scandal is being portrayed as “yet another” crime against the Jews. And really, why is the religious and ethnic identity of the victims relevant at all? Certainly, when people call attention to the religious and ethnic identity of the perpetrator, they are rightly decried as antisemites. After all, Madoff’s identity as a Jew ought by rights to be irrelevant. So why call attention to the religious and ethnic identity of his victims? The reasons are several. First, many Jews feel sorrier for fellow Jews than for other groups, so they regard crimes against Jews as being more heinous and therefore more important. Second, such a slant enables them to remove the negative spotlight from Madoff, a Jew, and use this debacle as more fodder for their vast corpus of arguments—some of them entirely legitimate—using the historical persecution of Jews as justification for greater indulgence.

Incidentally, and because we’re on the topic of racism and alleged anti-Semitism, has anyone bothered to ask why such an overwhelming majority of Madoff’s clients were Jews? Of course, Jews are a financially empowered demographic on the whole, but they represent just two percent of the American population. Doubtless, gentiles are as interested in making money as Jews are. So why did Jews represent such a huge portion of his clientele? Simple: racism and ethnic insularity are as prevalent among Jews as among any other demographic. Many Jews will defend this practice by claiming that it is a reaction to fear and persecution. Nonsense. It is what it is, and the truth is that a great many of these Jewish victims were effectively victims of their own racism, their own elitism, and their own insularity.

Comment by Jimmy on 12/25/08 at 9:35 am

In reply to Jimmy. Most of Madoff’s clients were Jews because since he is Jewish he has many Jewish connections.
I can’t believe you’re claiming Jews are racist. Of all the mistakes Jews make, racism is not one of them.
Jews are all brothers. Anyone would rather go into business with their brother than with someone else.
Many Jews invested with Madoff because he seemed trustworthy and was offering a great interest rate.
You’re argument makes no sense Jimmy.

Comment by Eliezer on 12/25/08 at 2:15 pm

reply to Eliezer

I agree with you that the comment of Jimmy is out of place.

That said, I am not sure what both Jimmy and you call racism. Is it to discriminate against some group ?? Or
is it in reverse to refuse to accept any critic to a Jwe by yelling out “anti-semitism” ??

And please do not mislead yourself !! It is not only because Jews are more comfortable with other Jews, but because many consider goim generally less clever and reliable. This is especially so with European old immigrants. Did you hear the story of the French primate Cardinal Lustiger (a Jewish convert) who had
an also converted assistant priest who complained to him because the altar boy was late for the mass ??

“you must be tolerant, he is a goy !!!”

Of course, Jewish racism is generally benign !!

Comment by caminito on 12/25/08 at 3:40 pm

The Jewish racism in evidence here is incredible. And yet, so many of you see only antisemitism, i.e., the extent to which OTHERS discriminate against Jews. As a gentile, I openly condemn those who speak ill of Jews. Yet so many Jews seem to accept this sort of discrimination against gentiles. Many Jews see themselves only as victims of bias and will refuse to acknowledge the extent to which they discriminate against others. The point is not that Jews are worse than other groups; the point is that they’re no better.

As Caminito said when explaining why so many Jews trusted Madoff, “And please do not mislead yourself !! It is not only because Jews are more comfortable with other Jews, but because many consider goim generally less clever and reliable.”

Jews are smarter and more reliable? I ASK YOU: IF THIS IS NOT RACISM, WHAT IS?

One post earlier, Elezier said:“In reply to Jimmy. Most of Madoff’s clients were Jews because since he is Jewish he has many Jewish connections. I can’t believe you’re claiming Jews are racist. Of all the mistakes Jews make, racism is not one of them. Jews are all brothers. Anyone would rather go into business with their brother than with someone else.”

All Jews are brothers?  I ASK YOU: IF THAT IS NOT RACISM, WHAT IS?

All Jews are brothers? That’s absurd and ridiculous. You are claiming affinity for someone whom you do not know and to whom you are not related simply because he’s a Jew.

That, my friend, is racism, pure and simple.

Incredibly, there are people here openly throwing around the term “goyim,” which is essentially the equivalent of “nigger” or “kike,” and no one seems to have the slightest embarrassment about it.

Comment by Jimmy on 12/25/08 at 5:06 pm

“....only because Jews are more comfortable with other Jews, but because many consider goim generally less clever and reliable.“

As a goy..thanks, I am saying I fully admit Jews are generally smarter, more clever etc etc..and very thankful ..Salk etc etc. BUT as such you as a people have a greater responsibilty. You are more successful, achieve higher ranks in society, and therefore more apt t make ponlicy..You are more visible,and must make every effort above ,and beyond. What I see anecdotally is our financial leaders, and market makers raking the goy over the coals..profits,bounuses etc..ultimately done in by their own. ” What are they doing to us ?”
After 911 was our fear lessoned ,or increased by the term Muslim. very little damage control, renunciation,or discussion took place by their “leaders”.
I believe we are heading for a greater financial decline…the mob will want blood. Politicians, Bankers, CEO’s , J***s?  Make no mistake…silence is condoning, non-action is complicity, greed is god?
Prejudice means to ; Pre-judge. I look, I see…Please show me otherwise.

Comment by Fred Wilson on 12/25/08 at 5:53 pm

Only to qualify some of my ideas, i am 78, Austrian Jewish, living in the under Polish adminsitarion Upper Silesia until 1940 and then I left with my Family to South America, now I am in the US.

to: JIMMY
Only to clarify: I do not know exactly the rootes of the yiddish word GOY or GOI, but it is used without any obscure intent to refer to gentiles, as American sometimes call Italian MACARRONIS or SPAGHETTIS!!

And hanging together as a sack full of nails is not only a Jewish characteristic: what’s about Mexicans and Chinese ?? And certainly not because they consider themself superior !!

To Fred WILSON
I coincide with much you are saying, even if (please pardon me) it is a little confuse.

Your main point is that because the Jews are in average in higher positions and tend to try to occupy all the space available at certain activities, are very exposed to become scapegoats, especially in bad times. VERY MUCH SO !!

This happens and happened on many, very different levels, as:

In the pre-WW2 Poland, many hundreds extremely poor Jews selling fabrics for men suits installed themselves at a street in Warsaw, in often only 6 ft front shops, worked 18 hours and slept in the back with their families. Their Mark-up due to such competition was catastrophic. No Polish “GOY” had the most remore Chance to compete there !
Consequence: the Gentile population hated them

2) As the Jews until the 19th century were confined in
most European countries to Ghettos and forbidden to exercize most of the GUILD professions, their middle higher stratum concentrated on what was allowed, mainly Finances and Jewelry manufacture and sale. Again, they tended to monopolize these trades, and their finance people (incl. tax collectors) were certainly not popular.
This tradition is still fully existent, as the NY 47th Street and Wall Street documents

3) Due to their religious exigeances, most of the Ghetto Jews were forced to learn to write and read, even if in Hebrew. This enabled them to read from the Bible, Talmud and the vast Hebrew literature and so acquire knowledge, at a time when in the gentile world only the percentually microscopic top layer of the society was able to do so. The intellectual level of
the discrimination originated Ghettos, enhanced by the forced concentration of knowledgeable people,  was therefore many time above the average gentile world, only restrained because of the same discriminition, denying them acces to superior learning sources.. Once the Ghettos disappeared, all this intellectual capacity was unleashed, and here again this here again presently applies, even if much reduced, in today’s world.

In Germany in the first 1/3 of the 20th century nearly half of Nobel Price winners were Jews, as well a disproportionate percentage of Doctors, Lawyers and ...
successful businesses. All this allowed a HITLER to be
successful with its hate campaign after the great depression (....!!)

Now, somehing like this concentration is Happening on Wall Street. But contrary to Germany, where the Jew were overwhelmingly honest, not crook tolerant and opposed to off-showing, nowadays there is a high percentage of questinable people, showing off their wealth in new-rich country clubs, as Madoff did. And unfortunately, honest Jews, instead to expose and exorcise them, silently admire their wealth, without caring for the origin

Now, as I repeatedly stated: GOOD JEWS must take the initiative to ostrazise and expose these BAD JEWS, which I named the WALL STREET MAFFIA !!

Of course, such need funding. Anybody is interested to do so??

Comment by caminito on 12/25/08 at 7:16 pm

I wonder about anyone regardless of religion or ethnic origin who display Conspicuous Consumption and an attitude of superiority to their neighbors who appear slightly less fortunate.  It crosses my mind that they may not be above board and involved in illegal activity.  I start doing Web Searches on them right away.

Madoff and other Wall Street types involved in such acitivites are not like the Mafia.  If it were the real LCN Mafia, they would have learned long ago learned that Conspicous Consumption is a good way to invite investigation.

Comment by Sue Weinstein on 12/28/08 at 3:47 pm

Sue Weinstein

You are totally right. experimented criminals, and especially the maffia with its hundreds of years experience, know this very well.

But today, the new rich have not learned this big truth.
Americans and European show off their illegal money,
it is worse in China, were you gain prestige by boasting, even if you have nothing or little.

I suspect that MADOFF had important business in China, but this people keep silent as they are afraid of their own aurhorities. Chinese jump in immediately if they smell money, and they lack any financial experience

But returning to the Maffia issue: the fact that the Wall Street Maffia lack the cacumen of the Sicilian, does not sgnify they are not Maffia !!

Comment by tom wittmann on 12/28/08 at 10:00 pm

I am an Asian. Jewish values are similar to Asian values of hard work, achievement, scholarship, family and to be secure with money.

Over time, I have found out that a lot of Christian whites are “proud” regardless of whether they are plumbers or doctors. As an Asian, it is easy for me to accept arrogance from a Jewish neurosurgeon than a Christian plumber. Incredulously, a Christian plumber is likely to show as much arrogance as a doctor in this society, because Christians (white) assume that they own this country. Sarah Palin anyone?

Comment by jv on 1/06/09 at 7:44 pm

Maybe that is because Jews are West Asians and are not ‘White’ even if they often look that way.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/06/09 at 10:26 pm

After 9/11 all the Jews were calling for Muslims to come out and condemn actions of terrorists (because they were Muslims) and now since a Jew has committed a crime.. We hear about whole community not being responsible for action of one or a few individual.. You guys use selective reasoning…

Comment by anonymous on 1/08/09 at 12:19 pm

To anonimous

I, as a Jew. coincide 100% with your comment.

I already posted several comments regarding the Jewish maffia on Wall Street, which not only tarnish the image
of the ample majority of a honest comunity but lead
with their action to a rebirth of ant-semitism. Ubfortunately, there is nearly no day where we read of
some WS related Jewish broker of manipulator.

If the Rabbis want to show that they are not the equivalent of the criminal mullah, ayatollah or whatever, which are also a small minority in the Moslem world, they should condems our own criminals loudly, with support of facts and by name.

The Moslem comunity is to blame because they have not the guts to oppose their extremist, as these are dangerous. Even if they are a maffia, the Jewish one has still not went so far !!!

So, what are the waiting ??

Caminito

Comment by caminito on 1/10/09 at 10:27 pm

There is no Jewish mafia on Wall Street, and therefore they are not ‘our own’ criminals. Otherwise, I would be benefiting from the proceeds of their crimes, which I am not.

On the other hand, your argument that the criminals are a minority in the Muslim world is defeated by the realization that Hamas was brought to power by popular vote, which did not produce a better result than the other million dictatorships.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/11/09 at 9:44 pm

Thanks for interesting discussion. As a former anti-Semitic, now I’m trying hard to understand before making judgment. Here I learned that Madoff did not only defraud numerous victims. He also caused many Jews feel guilty for being the same nationality/religion.

I’m atheist, but making my young daughter happy, we visit every Sunday Catholic church. After one divine service a priest smoked with me a cigarette and said: “Its nice how many good Catholics we have in country (Slovakia). I would rather see them being real Christians.“ Visiting church, talking about God could mean nothing. Madoff galef IMHO made a bad reference to Jews. There is no reason to be shamed; however there will be a lot of people thankful getting a new argument why to hate Jews.

Things look like for some reason Jews are successful not only in collecting Nobel prizes and Ocsars. If there is opportunity, some of them are best also in doing bad things. There is saying in Slovakia: „Jew is clever more than the others, but once if Jew is stupid, his stupidity is unconquerable.“

I wish you all good. 

Comment by Mato Kajanek on 2/07/09 at 6:11 pm

The world Jewish community is not responsiable for the actions of Madoff and his friends. Only those that defend and protect Madoff and his friends or any other criminal simply because they happen to be Jews. Also if they ,other Jews just try to put all the blame on Madoff alone. Then those Jews are as guilty as Madoff or any other Jewish criminal.
Eloitt Spitzer even tho he claims to also have been a victum, appears to me to be more of a partner in crime with Madoff. He was the Sheriff of Wall Street, nobody could get anything past him except his acomplis Madoff. Carl Shaparo from Palm Beach, did he make all that money being that stupid?Any Jew that can not put blame on them and others , then the blame is on them too.

Comment by Steve Surabian on 2/14/09 at 6:50 pm

I thought I had responded to your totally wrong comment. I have not seen anyone defend and protect Madoff, neither Jews nor non-Jews. Certainly Madoff was not alone on ripping off the investment world, but was surrounded by non-Jewish crooks. And no other Jews share Madoff’s guilt. What a waste of time.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/09/09 at 9:01 pm

Jewish leaders who refuse to stand up and say robbery like Madoff’s is wrong tell the world exactly that: they tell the world that Jews believe robbery is, well, not wrong.  They support the anti-semites.

These Jewish ‘leaders’ are fine, they’re just a little mixed up.  Let me explain.

Here’s their opinion: they think that if a Jew condemns Madoff then the goyim will say, ‘see,the Jews are robbers!’

Permit me to introduce them to the front pages of the New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Herald, Guardian, BBC, Fox News, and every other news source.  Madoff’s crime needs zero more publicity.  These leaders fail to recognize that there is zero downside to coming clean on this Madoff case.

If these lousy so-called ‘leaders’ had been running the Tylenol brand when someone put poison into it they would still be denying that Tylenol ever hurt a hair on anyone’s head.  How dead, literally, wrong they would be.

Once the genie of sin is out of the bottle, you have to deal with it.  It’s time for damage control, transparency, and firm moral guidance.  Not sticking your head in the sand.

Comment by Chaim Fisher on 3/13/09 at 1:52 am

Here are three issues to be commented:

1) MADOFF’s, as far as I read, never has invested the money received from his stupid customers but put it in his own pocket and then paid the older investors with the money brought in by the newer !!

A simple “honest” Ponzi is when the “banker” invest the money received from each investor, but different as usual, guarantees minimum proceeds, And when he is unable to meet this commitment, he uses the proceeds from new investors, which are still not withdrawing THEIR proceeds, to pay the older ones

MADOFF is PONZI quadratically !!

2) I did not see what happened to the managers of funds
or assets of 3rd parties which gave MADOFF billions of
NOT their own money without asking for serious information about his business and assets. One thing is that a moron does so with his own assets, another if he
does so with the of his customers.

3) It is generally known that many billions were lost by
greedy Chinese investors, the majority with the money they earned with their illegal businesses or activity.
But of course, these are mortally scarred of their not
so soft acting government if their investments are disclosed and lick their wounds without conplaining !!

caminito

Comment by caminito on 3/13/09 at 3:24 pm

Chaim Fisher whose name is not Chaim Fisher:
Here is what I think. You are either a gentile antisemite who has learned a few tricks or more likely a Jewish neurotic antisemite of whom there are plenty.

You are more interested in getting people to condemn Jews for supposedly legitimate reasons then to make a point. You have made the same non-point several times, hinging on defense and protection of Madoff by Jews and Jewish leaders. You realize your whole rap is meaningless if there are none.

If you can find me even one defense of Madoff by one Jewish leader (not a phony response on a blog by someone like you), then I will ask you find even one more. Now go away until you find one such defense.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/14/09 at 10:32 pm

Wolfowitz, Madoff, Abrahams, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros…list goes on.. if I say its Jewish greed, immediately you call me anti-semite…. hm…..

Comment by whyusyouask? on 6/27/09 at 5:04 am

But the much longer list of non-Jewish greedy crooks goes on and on and on. Is that a characteristic of non-Jews? Go repent.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/27/09 at 6:11 pm

Brad Greenberg you idiot. How dare you say that we are all responsible for Madoff’s disgusting crimes? It is one thing to want to distance Jews from Madoff by telling everyone he wasn’t orthodox (like that matters, even if he wasn’t that doesn’t erase the fact that he’s a Jew), but by putting the blame on everyone, of all religions?

It was Madoffs disgrace, how dare you suggest that we should all bear the moral burden of his hideous actions?

It is so distastefully obvious what you are trying to do.

Bernie Madoff is a cunning, scheming, disgusting crook.
And yes, he is also Jewish.

Comment by Ilana Davis on 8/30/09 at 7:54 am

Maddof is no different than that other Jewish fellow running the Fed.  The Fed is ran by a jewish man that is robbing the public, jewish people included, just like Maddof did.  And in that article, it said something along the lines of, “it was bad enough he did this to individual investors, but to jewish communities representing jewish people?” Or something along those lines.  It seems like the rest of the world takes a step down when it comes to your fellow jewish people.  If all of the jewish people and communities got their money back, or he didn’t rip off jewish people, you wouldn’t even care about what he did.  He might have even be applauded since he probably would have made donations to jewish causes, seeing he was an orthodox jew and in charge of some Jewish schools in New York until all this controversy came.  This is one world, one people, many colors.  Just hearing the way some of you guys talk makes me sick.

Comment by Mike on 11/17/09 at 9:11 pm

The meaning of “it was bad enough he did this to individual investors, but to jewish communities representing jewish people?” is that he exploited the extra degree of trust and ethics present amomng Jews who have learned by long experience not to expect it from Gentiles.

The other Jewish fellow running the Fed is only exploiting the extra degree of trust present among leftists.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 11/18/09 at 3:16 am

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