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That is a very bold testimony! That is the type of boldness in Christ that needs to spread throughout the Church… I think I am going to reblog this myself!

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/07/09 at 2:57 am

I like it! Really original, attention-getting, and completely sincere.

Comment by Todd Hebert on 2/07/09 at 8:15 pm

No pun intended but isn’t this shirt a little self-serving.  This campaign seems better suited for fellowship. I don’t see the point of wearing a shirt that instantly polarizes you.

Comment by Coner on 2/08/09 at 3:15 pm

@Coner…

Nope. Actually, I think it is quite the witnessing tool. If it gets the attention of either the non-believer, or the non-repentant believer, it has served its purpose! And if one or the other ask about it, it either plants the seed in the unsaved, or calls the saved to repentance…

It is win/win from this sports fans view in the cheap seats…

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/08/09 at 8:09 pm

I’m thinking I wouldn’t wear this…

Comment by Emily Judds on 2/08/09 at 8:14 pm

Hmmm….agree to disagree. To me wearing a shirt is a very hollow witnessing tool. I think this is a slippery slope for believers. It’s like wearing a shirt that says “ex-sinner” It seems more like an opportunity to boast about your accomplishments over sin (a la the Pharisees). When will selfless acts be our witness? Feeding the homeless and sick, mentoring the youth, being stewards of the earth. I just thinks its another gimmick from christian consumerism. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they give the shirts away for free.

Comment by Coner on 2/08/09 at 8:31 pm

i find these a bit ridiculous.  nothing says “i’m a fake” quite like inventing fake sins to beat people over the head with.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/09/09 at 6:39 am

@Chicken Soup…

Who is “beating someone over the head”? It is just a shirt. Is that pair of pants you wore this morning “beating folks over the head”? Maybe your having guilty feelings?

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/09/09 at 7:41 pm

exactly, Guy Vestal, it’s supposed to make people feel guilty.  and guilty over something that isn’t even a sin.  nevermind that guilt itself is a sin for christians.

and i’m surprised that you’d claim it’s just a shirt.  it’s also words.  words are powerful, you know.  some are even said to be living.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/09/09 at 9:59 pm

@Lobster Bisque…

“A Shirt” does not have the ability to make folks “feel guilty”. That feeling can only come from a “conscience”, or what I call “The Holy Spirit”. And how is “guilt” a “sin”? Guilt is a symptom of the disease of sin.

It is a shirt, nothing more, nothing less. What the words on it say to each individual is a different story altogether.

For some it may mean “Praise God, their slavery has ended.” To others it might be an embarrassment, to yet another it might invoke “guilt”, and to another, it might bring them to scorn. The question is where are these reactions coming from?

It is the testimony it gives that is the all important factor…

No “Atheists” civil rights are being violated, no humanist’s public “lewdness” laws are violated. The only ones that have a problem with the shirt, are the ones that have a problem with masturbation!

If a believer or non-believer had no problem with it, they would simply walk on by, without a care in the world.

Or is this an isolated incident because it is being promoted by “The Christian Community”? Shirts with a Pot Leaf, and other controlled substances, or sexually suggestive material on them, or satanic visuals of heavy metal seem to get a pass, yet the very mention, or association with God, seems to bring out the worst in people, when the worst in people doesn’t seem to do so to them…

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/09/09 at 10:45 pm

@ guy vestal
So let me get this straight, because the shirt can have subjective meanings

“For some it may mean “Praise God, their slavery has ended.“ To others it might be an embarrassment, to yet another it might invoke “guilt”, and to another, it might bring them to scorn. The question is where are these reactions coming from?”

It’s a great witnessing tool?.... I don’t follow?

By the same reasoning it’s safe to assume people will think “gee what an idiot” or “I’d rather not explain to my 11 year-old what masturbation is” or “wow she is hot, she used to rub one out every now and then” or “gee, Jesus really does love me and I’m free from the bondage of sin!”.......maybe not.

And what point are you trying to make with the pot leaf, sexual suggestive material t-shirt thing. What do you think of the people wearing those shirts? Personally I think they are idiots and don’t get a free pass. I pretty sure the point of those shirts is to say, look at me I’m cool!

I guess I want to reiterate my first comment that these shirts could send the wrong message.
Their heart might be in the right place but it’s a bit callow.

Comment by Coner on 2/09/09 at 11:38 pm

@Coner…

You Said:
“It’s a great witnessing tool?.... I don’t follow?”

Ours is ONLY “to plant the seed”, where God wants it planted. Does He want it planted in every human on earth by the same person? Nope. He might just want the wearer of a shirt to plant the seed in just 1 or 2 people to complete His will for that particular shirt, on that particular person. We have no idea.

Who it is a “great witnessing tool” for is unknown to us, but if it renounces sin, then it is a great witness, no matter what the “tool” is. If it renounces sin, then it is a great testimony, no matter who is telling it.

You said:

“By the same reasoning it’s safe to assume people will think “gee what an idiot” or “I’d rather not explain to my 11 year-old what masturbation is” or “wow she is hot, she used to rub one out every now and then” or “gee, Jesus really does love me and I’m free from the bondage of sin!“.......maybe not.”

Exactly! The Holy Spirit will convict whoever needs to be convicted over the sight of the shirt. Not everyone will be convicted over it. Not everyone will have their heart “softened” at the particular moment they see the shirt. For some, it might never come, or the conviction might come later, maybe after a person masturbates, and feels guilt? Who is to know. But if it renounces sin, it is a great witness, as well as a great testimony!

You said:
“And what point are you trying to make with the pot leaf, sexual suggestive material t-shirt thing. “

That point was being made to Proton Soup, in reference to the comment he made when he said:

“and guilty over something that isn’t even a sin.  nevermind that guilt itself is a sin for christians.”

That statement was made by either an uninformed disciple of Christ, or a non-believer. In either case, it was meant to illustrate that he seems rather wrapped up in something that is by his own admission: “something that isn’t even a sin”, ergo, what makes it any different then shirts that others might find offensive? If it bears no weight in the Judeo-Christian belief system (Which it does) why out of all the offensive shirts out there, does this one rank his ire? Is it because “God” is at issue? If God were not at issue, would he even care? What if it was put out by a popular pornography company to promote their movies? Would it be ok then?

You said:

“I guess I want to reiterate my first comment that these shirts could send the wrong message.
Their heart might be in the right place but it’s a bit callow.”

The renunciation of sin is NEVER the wrong message.

Read Matthew Chapter 3, then see it validated by Christ Himself in the very next chapter…

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/10/09 at 12:06 am

hey Guy, prove to me that masturbation is a sin.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/10/09 at 12:15 am

Hey Proton, watch the video again. The Pastor that shot it explains why it is. No need to repeat what he has already said, I already agree with him.

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/10/09 at 12:49 am

well Guy, i figured since you present yourself as some kind of preacher that you could just give me the verse you think applies here.  but since you don’t seem to have the time to explain what you mean, i’ll just assume that you are using the phrase “sexually immorality” as a catchall for anything that makes you uncomfortable.  now, i don’t know why you would be uncomfortable with the subject, as God himself is generally very specific and the Bible is filled with lists of thou shalt nots and with whom.  for instance, the crime of incest is given a ton of examples.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/10/09 at 1:10 am

@Proton…

So you absolutely refuse to watch the video? How do you know what you are talking about if you don’t watch it? And if you did watch it, you would not need me to tell you. But if it helps you sleep better at night…

If it is anyone else but your wife:

Exodus 20:14 which is expounded on by Christ in Matthew 5:28

If it is your wife:

Ecclesiastes 6:7 & 9 Which is expounded on by Christ in Matthew 23:25 That’s called “Self-Indulgence”. Worshiping “self” over God.

“Sex” between “Husband & Wife” is outlined here: Song Of Solomon 2:16 and in the N.T. here: 1 Corinthians 7:4

The man has no authority over “his” body, and the woman has no authority over “her” body. We are told in 1 Corinthians 7:3 that when “sexual gratification” is needed, it is to be given.

I “present” myself as nothing more than a “Disciple of Christ”, who happens to pastor a Church in Northern New England.

Looking for a “literal loophole” to justify sin tells the story itself. If you need that “literal loophole” to validate your sin, then you must be feeling awful guilty, and desperate to grasp at any straw, or straw man argument to justify it.

If you are a “non-believer” looking for that “literal loophole” to prop up your own self gratification, that you “Got them damned Christians!”, then your point is moot, because “we Christians” do not save, it is Jesus, through the softening of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Your win counts for nothing at the Great White Throne Judgment, it just gets put into the loss column…

I have done my job, I have presented the “Gospel” of truth about sin, what happens after that, is none of my concern, that is the job of the Holy Spirit from here on out.

I myself am not “uncomfortable” with the subject, in fact, I reblogged Brad’s post (with attribution of course, LOL) about how bold the testimony was.

It is not that I do not have the time to explain, it is that if you are going to debate, then get your facts from the video we are debating, if not, then you are just debating to hear yourself debate.

Self Glorification…

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/10/09 at 2:42 am

i actually watched the first 4 minutes and already it got nothing right

(Exodus 20:14)masturbation is not adultery.
(Matthew 5:28)you can masturbate without looking at or lusting after anyone’s wife.
(Song of Solomon 2:16)i assume you have no problem with man and wife masturbating together?
(1 Corinthians 7:4)this is about submission and fidelity

i am not a non-believer and i’m not looking for any loopholes.  i do however have a problem with this sort of legalism and trying to shame people over things that aren’t even in the bible.  now, if you want to talk lust, that is a different subject.

but at least you didn’t bring up the story of Onan, which leaves me with some hope.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/10/09 at 3:40 am

@Proton…

So you only watched 4 minutes? So you are basing your debate on only a portion of the evidence presented? How can you say it got “nothing” right, when you only saw a portion of it? Don’t you think your objection to this must be more than “academic” if you are so quick to condemn without even giving the opposite side of your debate the opportunity to have their say in the full length of the video?

That’s Great! That means this is actually convicting you! Maybe you are confusing guilt with dissent? You must admit, you are searching awfully hard for justification…

If you would have watched the entire video, these objections, as well as your search for justification of them would have been addressed…

You said:
“(Exodus 20:14)masturbation is not adultery.”

Yes it is. You are lusting after someone, or something during the process, ergo it becomes adultery.

You said:
“(Matthew 5:28)you can masturbate without looking at or lusting after anyone’s wife.”

True. But you cannot masturbate without lusting over someone or something.

You said:
“(Song of Solomon 2:16)i assume you have no problem with man and wife masturbating together?”

Each other? No. Together? Yes. That is not the way “procreation” was designed. (Genesis 1:28) Masturbation is man’s “perversion” of procreation. As a side note… Masturbating each other becomes wrong once it is taken to climax, foreplay is what it was designed for.

You said:
“(1 Corinthians 7:4)this is about submission and fidelity”

Nope. Actually the apostle Paul is answering a question that can be found in 7:1 “Now concerning the matters about which you wrote:”

Chapter 7 is all about the proper relationship(s) between man and God, where a woman is at issue. Or did you just read the first couple of verses, like you did the first couple of minutes of the video? It is the same theme all the way down to the end at verse 40.

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/10/09 at 11:51 am

@Proton…

And now on to the second half of your post. I wanted to address this separately…

The only “legalism” here is yours.

You are doing exactly what the Pharisees did when they were trying to “Skirt past God’s Law”.

“Well, because it is not spelled out SPECIFICALLY in the Bible, that means were can run with it!”

Nope. That was the very reason Christ expounded on Adultery and Murder, because folks were using the “Letter of the Law” as an excuse to justify their sin, all the while ignoring the “Spirit of the Law”.

You don’t need to fornicate to commit adultery, you don’t need to kill to commit murder.

Adultery is “Sex/Lust outside of the God ordained institution of marriage”. You don’t need to be married to be an “Adulterer”. Did folks think that God only cared about one form of sexual relations when He put that commandment in the ten presented to the people by Moses? The ten commandments are the perfect example of “The Spirit Of The Law”. They are all inclusive, a general outline of God’s law in condensed format.

That letter of the law scam is what currently plagues the US justice system… “Well, the penal code doesn’t mention the crime specifically, so I get away with it scot free!” Getting off on a “technicality” only works in man’s court, not God’s.

Comment by Guy Vestal on 2/10/09 at 12:26 pm

This is truly innovative ,knowledge providing and insightful information ,thanks lots.

Comment by Sunny-Avandia lawyer on 2/12/09 at 7:05 am

It would be better for you to sell all your belongings and follow Yeshua. 
We don’t need stuff, we need God.

Comment by Offgrid-Living on 2/14/09 at 1:43 pm

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