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the church tends to grow the most under persecution.  Look at the early church; and how about communist china?  The church is growing by leaps and bounds there…perhaps we should help set up a communist regime in Iraq, then the gospel will really spread.  this is the danger of mixing politics with religion.  i love and enjoy our freedom of speech, expression, religion, religious expression, etc.  but it is not my God and nor should it be.  The Biblical model is actually theocracy, and I don’t think anyone is going to be promoting that amongst the judeo-christian nations.

Comment by ethan on 10/20/08 at 1:01 pm

Failure to communicate. I’m not a Christian and I am unjustifiably assuming that Joe is no Holy Roller, but I take Joe’s statement to mean something about the qualities of, oh, let’s just say life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness under the American system and under an Evil Empire.

If Iraq does not yet resemble America (and may never do so), a good fight was waged to open the door to the opportunity. Everybody intones earnestly about Hitler, the Holocaust, genocide etc. but that wasn’t true at the time, and neither in our own time as evidenced in Rwanda and Sudan and Somalia. Qualitatively if not quanititatively Saddam Hussein was no better than Hitler without even religion to blame for his atrocities. Even if we set him up originally, and even if we had other motives, and even if we went against some interests who are against us anyway, and even if it doesn’t stick and Iraq reverts to civil war etc. and the war ultimately fails to achieve all of its goals - it was a good and worthwhile effort.

At the very least we will have raised the horizons of millions of Iraqis and probably achieved a tectonic shift in the region and culture as a whole. We may not know for at least thity years, long enough for the teenagers to start to be runnng the place.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 10/20/08 at 4:33 pm

For the sake of Joe’s argument, I don’t think it matters whether leading an invasion on Iraq was a good call. And I think Ethan’s correct: If the goal of government is to create systems that spread the gospel, well, then we should embrace more despotic regimes than we already do. This, I agree, is a major danger of marrying political ideology with theology. I think would agree that this is <a href=“http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/rick_warren_fascism_and_the_family_20080616/”>what’s wrong with The Family.

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 10/20/08 at 4:59 pm

At some point American evangelicals will want the Iraqi’s to convert to Christianity - after all, they were ‘saved’ by christians and therefore should convert.

They want the same for us - but I think we’ll put up a fight!

Comment by Jason Francis on 10/22/08 at 8:59 pm

You may know more about it than me. I took it as a wider analogy for a kind of enlightenment, not as a specific evangelical type statement. I wouldn’t be too picky. Of course, evangelical Christians always try as per their ideology but the subject was freedom and so forth.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 10/22/08 at 10:06 pm

Ohhh! Just one question first! Does he know who Jesus is? And does he know where iraque is on map??? I doubt it!

Comment by Phoenix plumber on 8/28/09 at 6:11 am

And I thought he was a real plumber the whole time.

Comment by Phoenix plumbers on 9/17/10 at 9:34 pm

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