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This annotated N.T. is likely to be little more than multi-colored higher criticism. A more useful tool for gaining understanding of the N.T. is by David H. Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary. It is the companion to His Jewish New Testament. His comments are clear and well grounded doctrinally. If someone wants to grasp the core of the N.T. with Hebraic background and sound exposition, read Stern’s work. You will not be disappointed!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/26/11 at 7:55 pm

So glad “pastor phil” infiltrates a Jewish paper with the promotion of material attempting to convert Jews to Christianity.  From Wikipedia: Stern lives in Jerusalem and is active in Israel’s Messianic Jewish community.

Pastor Phil, if you had any guts you’d be promoting Christianity to Muslims - course if you did that you might very well end up being stoned to death along with a bunch of raped women and gays.

Comment by george on 11/27/11 at 11:57 pm

Dear “george”: It is refreshing to see you confirm your vitriol in public. David Stern happens to understand the Scriptures. The tone of your comment reflects the hardness of your heart since you have made your comment personal. This shows that you do not follow Scripture. We are called to love our neighbor. Yes? My heart is for Israel, all Jews, & Jerusalem. In my ministry I constantly defend the Biblical authority for Israel to be the land. Anyone who reads and grasps the Truth in G-d’s word knows this is beyond question. Your suggestion that I have infiltrated is fallacious. You have not heard of “God fearers”? If you understand higher criticism, you might agree with the overall concern for valid hermeneutics. People can read Stern’s work and decide on their own. I convert no one. This is G-d’s domain alone. Faithful reading of Scripture is part of this as noted in the first psalm. Now, if I didn’t have “guts,” I would have left “Pastor” off of the post. So, you have erred again. Muslims have major problems. This is well known. I deal with Islam constantly. I have noted that some of them have better ears than you….  Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 10:00 am

It is beyond dispute that Christianity contains a lot of Jewish stuff, much of it unrecognizable to both Jews and gentiles as filtered through Roman and other later lenses. A scholarly Jewish perspective would provide a badly needed reality check in this regard, particularly since every Christian movement and offshoot attempts to laim greater authenticiy and attachment to Jewish origins.

Of course the limitiation on the ‘Jewish roots’ approach inevitably founders on those deal-breakers which have not changed since the first century, but as long as the discussion is confined to the New Testament nobody needs to get upset.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 11/28/11 at 11:18 am

Damned right this is personal, “pastor”.  I despise your 2,000 year history of trying to convert Jews to Christianity.  Your cult (you are to Judaism as Mormonism is to Christianity) has caused the death of millions of Jews.  And you have the audacity to come here and try to promote Christianity and Messianic “Jews”. You are from a long line of anti - Jews - at times you and your ilk have used Murder, at times Social Pressure, at times Slimy words of “Love” - but the bottom line of all you and yours tactics is to steal Jewish souls.  You, the Nazis, the Popes who promoted murder of Jews during the crusades, the Orthodox Christians who used pogroms to kill Jews, Martin Luther King who used the most blood lust inducing language about the Jews, all had one goal - to eradicate Jews and Judaism, either by murder or conversion.

Comment by george on 11/28/11 at 12:26 pm

Thank you, Ben. You are absolutely right. Both Jews & Gentiles need to be educated, since much has been culturized. Rome and others are responsible, having affected the thinking and interpretation of far too many. The Scriptures themselves speak loudly, proclaiming Truth, if we would read it. Psalm 19 offers evidence of this, and more prominently, Psalm 119. It is unfortunate that much animosity remains on the side of Judaism and Christianity. There is correction needed for both. When voices rail—and do not reason with G-d—as expressed in Isiah 1:18, then hostile reaction occurs which closes all dialogue. No one will ever eradicate Jews or Judaism. We can listen to other folks speak and they will tell us who they are: “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” Have a great day, Ben!!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 11/28/11 at 3:59 pm

OK, sorry Ben but I’ve got to say something and you can call me all your names and labels and the Pastor can psychoanalyze me in that pretentious way that the pagans…err Christians do.

I met Amy Jill Levine and heard her at 4 different sessions last year at LimmudLA.  Very interesting.  However she saw the Biblical world in the age-old and quite frankly sickening context of Jewish or Christian.  These were the only contexts.  I will NOT be boxed into either of these boxes and looking at 3,000 years of history I know I’ve made the correct decision.  Even if I’m out here all alone, it was much lonlier have egomaniacs speak for me as either a Jew or a Christian with all the we, us, everybody, group-think, cultish, brain-washed nonsense.  Thank GOD I have escaped that and a pox on the rest of you bullies and cowards.  But none of you will EVER speak for me (and vice versa).  I respect individuality and differences and despise the religious clones.  However I pray for you to get what you deserve.  Justice shalt you pursue!

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/07/11 at 12:13 am

If you want to know what happened in the Catholic church from it’s beginning to the 16th century, read “A World lit only by fire” by William Manchester. It shows you how the Catholic church grew and what happened while it did.

Comment by alfred on 12/07/11 at 7:17 pm

Not to worry, Levite Line. I can’t call you names because your post makes no sense at all. And nobody could dream of speaking for you because nobody can understand what you are talking about.

The entire subject matter of the Bible is to document the context and lead-in to God’s creation of the Israelite nation and God’s wishes for the Israelite way of life as a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (Exodus 19:5-6, and 1 Peter 2:9 if we must).

And there is nothing in the Jewish Scriptures that any Christian of any description can disagree with.

So if you want understand the Bible without reference to Judaism or Christianity, you and your fellow beings can obviously do so as long as you don’t mind talking to yourselves about it with no hope of affiliation or understanding from us Earthlings.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/07/11 at 9:51 pm

Thank you, again, Ben for your thoughtful comments. I would hope that those who have stumbled across this very interesting blog would overlook some of the negatives from whatever source and just read the Scriptures. They represent Truth—the very thing needed most today. We have nothing to fear from what is True as given to us by revelation—just as Moses preserved it. May many today begin to read the Book, rather than merely grumble and complain, as if they were back in the wilderness. Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/08/11 at 11:30 am

Brad Greenberg contributed a blog on Jewish perspectives on the New Testament. I thought it interesting and thought provoking. I wondered if I were going to purchase the book, The Jewish Annotated New Testament, edited by Amy-Jill Levine and Marc Z. Brettler. Then I was curious to read comments posted below the article. Unreal. Pastor Phil, thank you for your offer and insights. It is not for me but I am respectful of your posting. To George, never approach any kind of bigotry, real or imagined, with bigotry. I am Jewish. Everything you wrote was offensive. Yes, I am informed and well read on the history of anti-semitism. There is also a long history of love with which you should develop some familiarity so that you are not blinded by hate.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/08/11 at 1:14 pm

George, as a Messianic Jew, I equally thought of Davif H. Stern’s translation. I am open about my faith, but not here to proselytize; so if you want to disagree that the historical Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, that’s your schtick. However, please respect Jews and gentiles who believe in a historical Jewish figure as the Jewish Messiah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:24 pm

Pastor Phil, Dr. Levine actually said reading the New Testament affects her to be a better Jew. So, whatever criticism there is may merely come from a “I don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah perse” perspective. As for the Magi, my understanding is that the Magi (per the “magos” footnote) were probably merely astronomers or astrologers who had an ‘Ein Dor-type experience and converted to merely astronomy.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/08/11 at 5:29 pm

Pastor Phil, Stern’s “Jewish”(Messianic/Christian)New Testament “translation”,is described by Stern himself as a work with “cosmetic” changes,such as avoiding the use of biblical Greek proper nouns in order to replace them with transliterated Hebrew words.In addition,his book calls “law” “Torah legalism”, etc. That’s NOT intellectually honest translating;it sounds more like re-wording.The Jewish Annotated New Testament is a book of essays written to explore the ancient Jewish cultures that produced the concepts/ideas that are contained in Greek biblical texts. It’s an attempt to allow readers to gain perspective on how two very different religions share some scriptures, but, obviously, not all scriptures.It also illustrates how Greek culture melded its own beliefs and practices with these concepts, leading to pagan interpolation.  The NRSV (as ecumenical a translation as Christianity has thus far been able to produce)is used to source Greek scripture.Any Christian who wants to “follow” honestly whatever Jesus may have been teaching should ignore the fantasies of the likes of Tolkein and Lewis, and, instead, study 1st Century CE Jewish philosophy and history. Current Christianity developed from “church fathers” parallel to current Judaism growing from teachings of rabbis and sages. Early Church writings are often the polar opposites of Judaism in their obsessive hatred of humanity and attempts to transcend life mystically; they are far, far removed from the scriptures of which they claim secret and exclusive knowledge.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 9:40 pm

Gaining more insight into the development of Greek scriptures can be interesting for Christian people, and possibly, it might enrich their beliefs.Jewish perspective undoubtedly can shed insight into some passages and concepts that Christians admit they don’t understand. Regardless of the blights of history, (not to mention how awful it would be to repeat them),and the differences in Jewish and Christian texts/worldviews, both Hebrew and Greek scriptures could best serve any human belief system with their humanity-preserving messages, and their insistence that all of creation is important. All can hope to be good once more.

Comment by Shani on 12/08/11 at 10:02 pm

I found it disgustingly fascinating how one after another of the Jewish (or so I assume) writers tells Chrisitians how they can learn from Judaism.  Yet in what I now see is possibly a well-deserved stereotype, they don’t seem to believe they can learn from Christians or Christianity.  The stereotype of “knowing everything” which is such a dispicable attitude, yet I’ve seen it all too often from far too many Jews.  I speak as a former Jew.  This being one of a myriad of reasons why I no longer consider myself a Jew.

For the morons who wish to tell me that I am still a Jew, that would be another of the myriad of reasons why I choose to no longer be a Jew.

Also another newsflash for the egomaniacs of the Jewish world, Christianity is running and ruining this world.  It and they should not be ignored, though ignorance seems to be the safe road many Jews take towards Christianity/paganism.  All leading to the destruction of the Jewish community.  Something they brainwash their followers to be proud of.  Count me out, as I’m sure you did once I poked the first hole in that fat ego on most of your shoulders.

There are 3 main topics of concern.  History, religion and psychology.  Most of what I wrote was intended to illustrate the psychological problems on the Jewish end, in my opinion.

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/10/11 at 1:49 am

The Levite Line, I find said that you no longer consider yourself a Jew. As you and I, being Jewish believers, well know, most of our people are in a time where the veil has yet to be lifted and where Moshe is not understood because of the unlifted veil. Don’t let the Antimissionaries and other Non-Messianic Jews who are intolerant of Messianic Jews and Biblical Christianity get to you.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 12:02 pm

Thank you, Shani and others for your comments. This post has become more than interesting. David Stern’s work is a viable tool to help readers become more comfortable with the New testament. Other translations may also help, but his notes contain elements from Judaism which are lacking in many other works. It is a reasonable help, since it is not essays about the Scripture; it is Scripture plus notes/comments. Philosophy has it s place, as do the efforts of other literary notables (you mention C.S. Lewis). The 1st century Jewish philosophers have their points, but like the Christian writers then and later, they fall short of the text itself. The Scripture states itself to be what is of primary importance (as in Psalm 1; Psalm 119, etc.). There is no substitute for what Moses set in writing or the prophets who followed. If we spent more time just pondering their words (i.e., Isaiah 1:18), then many of the difficulties we face at the moment would recede. Too many of us see through a glass dimly. As once said, “It is amazing how much light the Bible sheds on the commentaries.” Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/10/11 at 4:17 pm

Pastor Phil, Levine & Brettler’s book does contain the the Greek Bible in the NRSV translation, with ample commentary. I did not meant to sound dismissive entirely of Lewis, etc. but I have encountered many Christian scholars who form their understanding of Christian text through philosophers who neatly fit their concepts of Christianity into their ancestral mythologies. Everything become King Arthur, and heroes, and the return of the king.They tended to ignore or disparage Jewish historical viewpoints, making even detailed translations linguistically inaccurate. Cultural connotation is often impossible to communicate with translation.From what I can tell, Levine & Brettler are fair in their publications.Of course, “pondering” scripture is worthwhile, but it can also be the straight route to seeing through a glass darkly (through a personal lens).Scholars are trying to move beyond the 19th century European approach to biblical studies. Seriously, Pastor Phil,you cannot think it’s easy for Jews to pick up the Christian Bible at all, let alone be “comfortable” with a translation. Personally, without scholars like Levine, attempting, out of curiously, to read the Greek scriptures has been bad for my blood pressure.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 5:40 pm

Shani, for very-well-done studies from a Jewish viewpoint on the inherently-Jewish nature of Christianity and aspects thereof, I suggest that you check out the website for K’lal Yeshu’at Yisra’el (in English, Congregation Yeshuat Yisrael)in Franklin, Tennessee. Also closely read Dr. David Stern’s translation more thoroughly. The NRSV is a Roman Catholic translation and does no good. Versions like the CJB and NKJV (which I use) deliberately retain the Jewish context of the original-language Tanakh and B’rit Chadashah.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/10/11 at 6:48 pm

Thank you Nickidewbear, I will certainly look into your suggestions for my reading! Back to the original topic, I believe Dr. Stern’s contributions to learning within the scholarly community of biblical studies are valuable.I’m not familiar with his “New Testament”,but, unlike Pastor Phil, I don’t believe it should be read “instead” of this work by Levine and Brettler. (Read them both - why not?) The NRSV was commissioned by the National Council of Churches, and it is deliberately ecumenical.My Rabbi has it on the shelf in her office. There is a Catholic Vulgate edition, but it’s not used by Levine & Brettler in their Annotated Jewish NT. The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV (regular edition) has major contributions from Marc Zvi Brettler and Amy-Jill Levine. For studies,I use the JPS TANAKH, edited by Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler and JPS Hebrew-English.

Comment by Shani on 12/10/11 at 7:33 pm

Dear Nickidewbear (and others),

When I say that I am no longer a Jew, that would include no longer calling myself nor being a Messianic Jew.  My experience with many Messianics could be summed up as follows, ‘the worst of both worlds!’  The Jewish B.S. combined with the Christian B.S.  Frankly your egotism couched in phony compassion for those poor (allegedly) non-believing Jews is as sickening as the phoniness of many non-Messianic Jews.

As much as their intolerance was hard to deal with, so was the narrowmindedness, judgmentalism and childishness of Messianic Jews.

Also when I say that I am no longer a Jew, that means they are no longer my people.  I don’t care about them, as it is clear that too many do not care about themselves.  They pretend to worry what everyone thinks about them, like a high school teenager.  Yet when people tell them what they don’t like or hate about them they just call people names.  Ie. Anti-Semite.  Yet they could not even tell you who or what a Semite is.  It’s always the same theme.  Trying to stifle all voices of criticism.  Hence as a non or ex-Jew I can now speak my mind because frankly I do not care what most Jews think.  Ironically I’m gaining more respect with this approach, in most cases.  There is also a whole world out there which the Jewish culture has not prepared me to deal with in any constructive way.  From ALL I can see the Jewish movements are still way short of understanding their role in this world.  Worse though they are not interested nor willing to hear about it.  This includes Messianic Jews.  Of course my fledgling organization, The Levite Line, is I believe the missing piece and link.  Therefore as much as I’m annoyed by Jewish people and the Chrisitian/pagan faith, my other three fingers point right back at me.  That is fine, I see more and more God’s plan for myself within ALL of Israel.  The problem is few are ready and willing to assist and I understand.  The bigger problem is those who want to set up roadblocks and make matters more difficult than they already are.  This will bring about my verbal wrath (that is my temper) and I hope and pray God’s wrath as well.  My faith is not about manipulating anyone.  It caters to adults and they will have to make their own decisions.  If Jews or Christians refuse to acknowledge basic truth (ie. There is only one 7th day of the week.  Hence there is only one Sabbath!) then I do not care about offending such people as they offend me with being or pretending to be ignorant and wanting to remain so.

It is complicated, but I believe I know what I am doing.  I definitely know, as a student of Jewish history that the Jewish community has never known what it is wrong.  In fact they usually will tell all who will listen how wonderful things are, when things are not.  Instead of working to make things wonderful.  Hence I don’t wait for the Jewish egomanical leaders (including Messianic) to do anything but mislead, misinform and misguide.  How else could 6 million end up in gas chambers?

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/11/11 at 7:52 pm

The Levite Line, you claim (among other allegations), “[W]hen people tell them what they don’t like or hate about them they just call people names.  Ie. Anti-Semite.” This is not true of all (fellow) Jews, Messianic and Non Messianic. In fact, for example, I believe that Philista (based on Tanakh) still has an existing people (the Palestinians)and that the “wodka” ad with “Hanukkah pricing” was calling us Jews “generous”, not “cheap”.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/11/11 at 9:38 pm

Good news, Levite Line. It is my authoritative ruling in your favor that you are indeed no longer a Jew. There is no coercion in Judaism, neither for or against remaining a Jew. Other than the kind of coercion parents exert when insisting that their kids brush their teeth and so on, but your opposition must certainly be more principled than simple juvenile resentment, haha.

The technical status of your mother’s uterus only gets you a ticket on the bus. If you have simply missed the bus your ticket may be valid to get you on at another stop. But if you have CHOSEN to miss the trip or get off the bus it is void. Of course like Freud and Marx and Felix Mendelssohn or Gustav Mahler, you can be an atheist or a first or second generation convert but the rest of the world will call you a Jew forever, if not the righteous remnant of remaining Jews. Don’t blame us for that. It is a common fantasy of people like you that your problems stem from the rest of the Jews.

Just a small reality check before you go back to your busy role in your fledgling organization of one. And may I congratulate you on your ability to pack so little meaning into so many words?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/12/11 at 12:46 pm

Hi, Shani: Thank you for your comments. You are right. I do not think it is easy for Jews to pick up the “Christian Bible.” This is why I commented the way I did. But, please remember that it is not easy for a Gentile or a “christian” either. Most have been raised in or affected by the culture which is at large anti-G-d. The popular culture would like to remove the shadow of Truth from the Judeo-Christian influence. The Scriptures, whether the Tanakh or the N.T., are an offense to them. The result is that many folks have only a passing knowledge of what the Bible really says and then have the nerve to use it against us by saying, “judge not,” etc. I am a strong advocate of Bible reading. Too many people do not have time for that, which means they have no time for G-d. This is the whole problem. I do not favor the tweaked scholarship or the popular nonsense that has found a home in much of “christianity.” It merely continues the deception that it is another life choice, just a different moral platform. The scriptures go beyond that, especially as found in Isaiah’s writing as he warned us about being so far from G-d. Jeremiah, too, well documented the conditions in his day which face us at the present hour. We do not need added “oomments” from some expert to see that. The Scripture itself is very clear. This, again, is why the reading and “reasoning” with G-d are so important. All of the prophets tells us we have forgotten G-d. My message is simple: come back. As He said, “return to me; return to me even now”! Shalom!

Comment by Pastor Phil on 12/12/11 at 7:02 pm

Pastor Phil, I’ve gained perspective on this issue. Thank you.I’ve often wondered if observant Christians are ever uncomfortable with their own scripture, because I’ve heard verses that are so exclusionary. I read your initial comment here as a cagey attempt at missionizing,and I apologize to you for my insinuation. Very narrow-minded of me, to say the least. Some of my (mis?)understanding of Christianity has emerged from media depiction (often caricature), and that’s unfair of me, and, quite frankly, ignorant. Perhaps that’s why the works of scholars like Levine are appealing to me.I know G_d never left us, and never will! Shalom shalom.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 3:29 pm

Shani; while G-d will never leave or forsake ‘Am Yisra’el, a couple of the “exclusionary” points are important to raise: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b'rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/13/11 at 5:44 pm

Nickidewbear, are you being ironic? If not, your comment shows perfect examples of the type of assertions that inspired Levine & Brettler to investigate the Greek texts, and provide context and broader perspective.

Comment by Shani on 12/13/11 at 8:53 pm

Shani, both the Hebrew and Greek texts say & imply that, as I said: 1) Jews must either be shomrim-kol hamitzvot or accept hachen b’Yeshua. 2) Ru’ach HaKodesh will not dwell with bnei-‘Adam forever, as noted in Beresheet. 3) Conditions—be they mitzvot v’b’rit milah, or rachamim v’chen—have always applied to be m’Yisra’el. So, there are discomforts in Judaism (including Messianic Judaism) that are worth thinking about.

So, I’m just asking you to consider what I say. I’m not proselytizing, just giving you what the texts themselves in their own contexts say.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/14/11 at 6:31 am

OK, though I KNOW I am wasting my time responding to egomaniacs like Ben Plonie I will respond:

1) Because Plonie is not alone and most Jews in their over-zealous concern for “Jewish unity” speak in “we” and “us” terms constantly.  Thereby arrogantly taking it upon themselves to speak for “me”.

2) I would not trust you ugly, 4-eyed, bald-headed, obese or scrawny, physically and morally wretched creatures to give me the time of day.  You will NEVER speak for me.

3) The physical ugliness of so many Orthodox Jews (and other peoples) is a reflection of their inner ugliness, I have concluded.  I know it is harsh and politically incorrect to judge a book by its cover, however I don’t do politically correct unless it is correct.

4) Even if Plonie was joking or half-joking in his previous reply to me, I know and believe that “much truth is said in jest.”  I assume he means what he said, but like a coward, which many Jews consider brilliance, he can always say, ‘I was only joking.’  Hence try to make me feel inferior/stupid and as usual add more to the already over-inflated egos of too many Jews.

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/17/11 at 2:53 pm

Now I’ll waste more of my time on this Sabbath (and typing in cyberspace is not a violation of Shabbat, because I decide the limits, not the ugly Orthodox rabbis or their brain-washed bully followers), replying to Ben Plonie:

Plonie said, “It is my authoritative ruling in your favor that you are indeed no longer a Jew.”  I believe I already made that decision, independent of you (whether that you is singular or plural).

Plonie also says, “There is no coercion in Judaism…”  While Plonie and most (Ashke)nazi Jews will not comprehend this, my Jewishness was ethnic as well as religious.  As far as Judaism or Christianity/paganism or any other brain-washing and brain-washed cult/religion, that is definitely OUT.  However my ethnicity as a Jew (and I reiterate that the many like Plonie who think because their ancestors lived in Poland for centuries or now live in America, makes them Poles, like other Poles, or Americans like everyone else; there are/were gas chambers for such willfully ignorant morons.)  I now consider myself a Hebrew and a Levite (hence my tag as theleviteline.com) and neither a Jew by religion (or any other religion) nor exclusively part of the Judean nation.  A nation which now calls itself Israel without any cognizance or even interest in comprehending the actual meaning of the word and person Israel.  Again, completely inexcusable.  To read the Torah (5 written books of Moses) and the prophets and not even question, never mind answer and comprehend who Israel is, is again completely inexcusable.  God damn you for this and I believe He has and will continue to do so.  I hope He does, you deserve it.  Your life may be a big joke, mine is not.

As for my organization, I have two board members, both non-Jews, because you are all too brain-washed and brain-dead to have a clue, as usual, of your own needs, or of God’s plan.  Again INEXCUSABLE!  I also have people signing up on line along with a growing email list.  I also have visitors from all over the world everyday!!  I’m quite certain nothing I could ever do would impress the likes of you.  However, I do not respect you ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people enough to seek your approval.  I can just look and say, Uh Uh.  No thanks!

Finally, because you cannot grasp the meaning of my words, you should suppress your arrogance and ignorance by blaming me.  It is your lack of depth of comprehension that is the problem.

I hope you won’t respond Plonie, but of course you have the right to do so.

For all the polite cowards who think I’m being disrespectful there is good reason for this.  I do not respect such people, nor the religions that produce them.

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/17/11 at 3:24 pm

To theleviteline guy,
you wrote that you were writing to Plonie but went on to attack “While Plonie and most (Ashke)nazi Jews will not comprehend this..” Yes, we do. We know Judaism is but one branch on the tree of the Jewish people. We understand that it can be a religion, culture, civilization, an ethnic identity and entre in to a nation. But I am certain many of us understand when someone defines himself outside the group - a very large and diverse group - they are, as you said, no longer Jewish. That is fine. It happens everyday. There is no problem with that. There is a problem when you burst into a Jewish Newspaper blog and dam people because you disagree with them OR they do not care to follow you. If this hurts your feelings or bothers you.. as my late father use to say to people who did not follow his jokes, fuck you.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/17/11 at 3:55 pm

This is really b’nefesh l’Hanukkah, ishim… lo!

Comment by Nicole Czarnecki on 12/17/11 at 4:34 pm

Well Mr. Cohen proves my point that Plonie is not the only arrogant egomaniac, besides completely misinterpreting what I said, kind of how these creeps misinterpret Torah over and over and over for over 3 thousand years now.

Cohen says, “you wrote that you were writing to Plonie but went on to attack “While Plonie and most (Ashke)nazi Jews will not comprehend this..” Yes, we do. We know Judaism is but one branch on the tree of the Jewish people. We understand that it can be a religion, culture, civilization, an ethnic identity and entre in to a nation.”

Cohen says, “Yes, we do.”  “We know Judaism…” and “We understand that…”  The arrogance to speak for however many thousands or millions and decide what ‘we do, we know and we understand.’  First of all, I know that is patently false between the mentally challenged, the children, the elderly with mental incapacities and God knows how many other brain dead folks, all being part of your faith.  It proves the cultishness, lack of respect for individuality, for different views and your overall intolerance.  You build museums of tolerance and yet have no understanding of the concept.  Please don’t tell me that by “we” your meant “most Jews.”  If you don’t know how to express yourself correctly in participles and pronouns then don’t speak or write.  I know it’s quite well understood what you’re doing.  It’s that twisted (Ashke)nazi way to make people feel included… by you speaking for them.  I reiterate, I would not trust you creeps to give me the correct time of day and you will NEVER EVER speak for me.  Hence I am no longer a Jew and now we’ll see what bullying threats you’ll try on me.  I’ve joined the other side and I’ll depend upon them to protect me from the likes of you horrible excuses for human life, most of you Orthodox creeps.

Also I did not damn them for what you say, I damned them for exactly what I said.  Again interpreting.  There’s nothing to interpret, I said and I say what I mean.  If I spoke in metaphors no doubt you morons what take that literally.  I stay at Level 1 for you egomaniacs, and that seems to be too much for most of you to comprehend.

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/19/11 at 12:15 am

theleviteline wrote:“However, I do not respect you ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people enough to seek your approval.” and “Hence I don’t wait for the Jewish egomanical leaders to do anything but mislead, misinform and misguide.  How else could 6 million end up in gas chambers?” etc.

Why is this anti-semitic vitriol tolerated at The JEWISH Journal?

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/19/11 at 3:25 pm

JustDroppedBy, I have no idea. But the “Jewish Journal” is going el She’ol fastly.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/19/11 at 3:27 pm

Why do we Jews need to learn about a fairy tale book about a person that there is no historical proof ever even existed?

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 10:25 am

In response to JustDroppedBy I guess his philosophy and the many like him, is to suppress harsh critical words.  This way when you end up burned alive or gassed to death or whatever lovely end will be next for the Jews, you can be as clueless as your forebears.  Maybe this way it hurts less and it’s over quickly.  Unless you survive years in a concentration camp.  Of course having 1.5 million of your children gassed and burned alive, oh well just another blip on the screen. 

It would be laughable except I KNOW that folks like JustDroppedBy are and have been listened to and voices like mine are labelled and dismissed.  However the possibility that I’d been categorized with and stuck anywhere with the many creeps like JustDroppedBy is unfathomable and unacceptable to me.

The continued and willful ignorance of the story of Jesus, a Jew, by the Jewish masses is just one of the many inexcusable if not most inexcusable aspects of Jewish life.  Mr. Kratt seems to echo this attitude, first with the “we Jews” and referring to the Jesus story as a fairy tale.  Why should the Moses story be any less of a fairytale then?  However I do NOT wish to debate with these completely closed minded and willfully ignorant people at all.

As Jesus might have said, ‘Happy Hanukkah’ (see John 10:22-23).

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/20/11 at 11:56 am

Oy vey!!! Why the hate?  I stumbled upon the Jewish Journal website and this blog posting when doing a google search for all things Hannukah in LA.  I am absolutely mortified by some of these comments.  I come from one Jewish parent, one Christian parent and I embrace and respect both religions.  George, in particular - are you outta your mind?  I pity your twisted sense of reality.
I am so regretful that I even read these comments, they’ve ruined my day!!!
Why can’t we all just get along?

Comment by Assilem Berg on 12/20/11 at 12:14 pm

Adam Kratt, Jesus of Nazareth did exist.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/20/11 at 12:54 pm

@ Nickidewbear, There is NO historical evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth. ALL evidence points that the city of Nazareth did not even exist until the 1st century after the alleged time that Jesus supposedly existed. There is NO mention of any Jesus of Nazareth in Roman, Jewish or Greek documents of the time. The ONLY evidence of Jesus are books (Christian Bible) which was written between 300 and 400 years after his supposedly lived.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/20/11 at 9:22 pm

Happy Hanukkah to all.
Where did any commenter say that Jews don’t learn from Christians? (An accusation made here?) The comments are in response to an article about a Jewish publication by scholars who have dedicated their careers to learning about a foreign religion. Clearly, their intent was “to learn”...and to teach. Where is the “willful ignorance”? Why would anyone “willfully” ignored even read this article?  Answer: No one “willfully” would. Did the accuser READ the article? How can no one else have reacted to the horrible name calling?  “Brain dead”? “Twisted Ashkenazi way?” “ugly 4-eyed, blue-eyed, obese, scrawny, bald-headed, physically and mentally diseased people”??
Why does a White Supremacist get to spew his hate and insanely rant, and no one else has called him on it, or moderated??

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/20/11 at 9:50 pm

leviteline wrote the following quotes: “The physical ugliness of so many Orthodox Jews is a reflection of their inner ugliness, I have concluded.”
“I’ve joined the other side and I’ll depend upon them to protect me from the likes of you horrible excuses for human life, most of you Orthodox creeps.”
“To read the Torah (5 written books of Moses) and the prophets and not even question, never mind answer and comprehend who Israel is, is again completely inexcusable.  God damn you for this and I believe He has and will continue to do so.  I hope He does, you deserve it.”

Members of Hate Groups should NOT be given voice or attention in this publication. No one needs the abuse, and it doesn’t deserve attention.  Readers can drop by because something interesting caught their eye, and then read such hottible comments and feel polluted.  It’s horribly depressing, and the threat of hate crimes hangs over our heads continually.  This poster isn’t kidding around - he’s making vicious accusations because the world isn’t what he thinks he wants to it be. I sincerely hope this publication is keeping record of these insults and degrading, hateful comments.

Comment by JustDroppedBy on 12/21/11 at 1:05 am

The only reason for a Jew to read the fantasy comic book called the “new testament” is to disprove it. I would suggest that any Jew who reads about the sorcery and corruptions written about in the Christian text that they become proficient in and knowledgeable regarding their mistranslated verses. There are several Jewish websites that are dedicated to countering the missionaries. All Jews should be prepared to show How the “new” testament is easily debunked and is based on lies and mistranslations of Tanach

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:24 am

Adam Kratt, mashpikh. This is not an Antimissionary nor proselytization website.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 12:59 pm

This is a Jewish website for Jews. Christians should be responding and posting their foreign pagan ideas.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:30 pm

@ theleviteline: I have read your website. Your ignorance on the subject is evident. First off the Levites are not Aaronic priests. While the priests do come from the tribe of Levi, not all Levites (Levyim) are priests. Only the direct decedents of Aaron are priests and are called Kohaynim. I also read your founders Bio. It is obvious he had mental disorders.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 3:41 pm

I’m asking the Jewish Journal to not welcome Adam Kratt or theleviteline.com here anymore.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 4:29 pm

What did Adam Kratt do that was dangerous or inappropriate?

Nickidewbear, I can’t believe you would find something offensive in Adam Kratt’s posts, but you’ve written nothing about the vile, offensive, cruel name-calling by the poster that wouldn’t know a Levite if one fell out of the sky and squished him!

Comment by Shani on 12/21/11 at 4:56 pm

@ Nickidewbear: Really? You are asking the Jewish Journal to ban me, a Jew, for expressing Jewish ideals because you, a gentile, are offended?

@ Shani: Thank you, while I understand that views I express aren’t the most politically correct. We as Jews need to stand up and defend our faith and our Torah.

Comment by Adam Kratt on 12/21/11 at 6:22 pm

Shani, I asked that theleviteline.com be not welcome here anymore and I told him that he’s still a Jew even if he’d like to pretend differently. Also, I asked if the “Jewish Journal” is going downhill because they allow comments like his. Adam, the point of this blog isn’t Antimissionarism. And Shani, you know as well as I do (and I sadly had to clarify in another post) that I am not here to proselytize or convert but only to disclose that I am Messianic before I get persecuted for such and accused of proselytization.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 12/21/11 at 6:46 pm

NDB, if the delusional Levite was ever a Jew, he is an apostate. He rejects Judaism beyond a shadow of a doubt. In addition, he is unable to contain his outrage and maniacal hatred of Jews and Judaism, so he’s a racist, and a hater. When did I ever accuse you of proselytizing? I don’t think proselytizing is dangerous, and I don’t get offended by it. I am annoyed when people are sneaky about it, but, as you’ve made clear, you aren’t trying to play mind games. I have a feeling you are young…early 20’s maybe? You are learning about Messianism and you are very inspired at this point. This doesn’t affect me one way or the other, however, indicating that being “accused” of proselytizing (which no one in this thread has done) is tantamount to “persecution”, indicates that you are naive, and a bit arrogant. Sure, you have a “right” to your voice and your beliefs, and you have a “right” to share them. You also have a responsibility to avoid falsely accusing others, and to strive for justice. Racism and hate are unjust. The comments on this thread have gone on too long as it is. I’m adding a comment now only because, like a couple of other commentors, I noticed unmistakable statements of hatred, racism, and threats of “damnation” directed toward Jews. I will not just roll my eyes and ignore such things. It’s bad enough to see such evil all over other news. I don’t come to The Jewish Journal to feel assaulted, and insulted.

For example: “I would not trust you ugly, 4-eyed, bald-headed, obese or scrawny, physically and morally wretched creatures to give me the time of day.”

This statement is so outrageous it would be easy to ignore if it wasn’t an obvious, blatant attempt at reminding us of past repulsive, ignorant, evil stereotyping. And he comes here to attract others to his “movement”! No no no. He can go find some pit to vent with others of his ilk.  He has no voice here.

Comment by Shani on 12/21/11 at 7:29 pm

It is a pity that theleviteline does not understand his mental disturbance and seek help.  Criticizing his mentally disturbed rants and trying to argue with him will only encourage him to continue his delusional state.  As a physician, my hope is that he will seek help from a mental health practitioner before he becomes violent and caries out his delusion by harming someone else.

Comment by Dani El on 12/22/11 at 4:37 am

Though God knows and I know I am wasting my time replying to such abused and abusive children, I will do so anyhow.  Mainly because as usual with the Jewish and frankly with large segments of white society in general it is the same theme, STIFLE.  STIFLE any complaints, justified or not.  STIFLE anything negative, so the ugly creeps and their minions, who are trying desperately to STIFLE me can continue to get away with what they get away with.  For example destroying the Jewish people, all under the guise of protecting the Jewish people.  That’s quite a scam, ‘cept I’m on to your game and will expose it and rub your noses in it so hard (without touching your diseased selves) that you’ll wish you never had a nose.  Basically the more you folks, Jews and pig-eating pagans (Christians) try and STIFLE me, the nastier and more vicious with what I KNOW to be the truth, I will get.  And I will do it from a place of safety, ie. cyberspace, so you can’t crucify me, as it is clear you would love to do.  Just as Jesus was offered to the Romans, simply for saying something that a group of Jewish egomaniacs, who other Jews allowed to represent them, could not handle.

As far as mental/psychological problems that you claim I have or had, of which I am not agreeing.  I understand the source of many problems, and it is the religious creeps trying to stifle me.  It is the Judeo-Chrisitan religion and the creeps who are its leaders, particularly Orthodox Jews and Roman Catholicism.

Just to twist the knife a little and because this is how I do feel, while I pray continually for the destruction and damnation of this Judeo-Christian farce, in Jesus the Jew’s Name… God Bless the Muslims!  Yes, that is correct God Bless the Muslims and Goddamn the rest of you!!  In Jesus, the Jew’s Name I pray!  AMEN!!

Comment by theleviteline.com on 12/24/11 at 11:25 am

The first time you wrote about blue eyed devils you think it was difficult knowing who you are and to which organization you belong? A bigot is a bigot. Doesn’t matter what religion or the lack thereof.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/24/11 at 12:00 pm

Phil,  please cease and desist.  This person needs anti-psychotic medications and your responses feed into his delusions.  Let him be and if he he can get psychiatric attention his delusions and anger can be helped.

Comment by Dani El on 12/26/11 at 3:02 am

Wow what a heated string or blog or whatever you call this stuff. Frankly I never make comments on the web, usually too lazy to do the whole log in, create account crud, but this was so easy. Came across this and was intrigued. Yah there is some awful name calling, but has anyone really thought about what this guy is saying? No they haven’t. Because, and understandably, they are so taken back with his way of expressing his experience with what appears to be religion, be it of whatever persuasion. But obliviously he is passionate about what he is saying. Fact is millions have been persecuted and killed in the name of religion. So many are condemned even to this day for different ideals, so we all have to see the hypocrisy of religion all together. Open some eyes people. Worship God and all that good stuff and go to church if you choose to do so, but why be so ignorant and ignore the facts. Oh you might say, “wah wah wah let’s be nice to each other and blah blah blah and you shouldn’t say this and don’t say that.” Good gravy, as my grandma would say, it is laughable that you can let some silly words get you so upset. You know pit-bulls are someone’s gentle giant and another’s frightening enemy. Whoa who said this guy was from a hate group or a White Supremacist. Another big chuckle on my side. Take away the “offensive language” and listen to the message. I got it and I am just a pre-K teacher. Oh boo hoo he said a mean word. I wonder what mean words were said by some of the people who were murdered throughout history for having different religious beliefs. “Oh excuse me my Godly brother, please don’t burn me alive while engulfed in the fumes of my own burning flesh.” LOL Here let me spell it out for you. Religious organizations have killed, maimed, and pillaged for centuries and to some extent continue to this day. Only because we are modernized and have some form of government run civilization do we not tolerate this behavior, not because of religion. How is it that God or Jesus or whom ever can be so loving and yet we, yes I said we, feeble humans can take his words and make them mean something that results in “my way or the highway.” And highway meaning murder and condemnation. Why is everyone so afraid to understand that this guy may be a bit pissed off at the religious institutions and the rules and regulations that really hurt so many. Oops forgot that oh so many are in bliss and harmony going to their church every Sunday and following the words of their pastor or Rabi or whoever and are completely fulfilled in life, as long as they are not gay, or bi, or transgendered, or a slut, or a drug addict, or a prostitute, or not of your religion, for these people should simply be hung! Right? Again wah wah wah my church is tolerant to those people. BS! Why aren’t the gays getting married. Please people no religious institution is truly tolerant because they are too busy dictating how you are to think and getting money out of your pocket, oh that’s right so you got those who are “happy”; but forget about those who were “disowned” from family, beat up for their different type of views, are treated with such disdain. Again what about the gays who want to get married. How many religious institutions stood out in front to be on their side. Oh please better the question is how many religious institutions would be happy to put all those gays on an island somewhere far away. Now I hear someone saying, “you are upset because you are a gay person who can not marry…” Gosh don’t make me laugh. I could care less, but there are many who do care. And I only use it as an example. OK I have rambled and maybe one of you will get what I am saying and finally get what the other guy is saying. Yah yah yah maybe he is a bit harsh in his language but who died and wrote the book on what is “nice” to say and what is not. I am laughing right now. The other day a woman said to a friend of mine, “ve a la iglesia y repientete de tus pecados con el dios.” which means go to church and ask God to forgive you for your sins. Sounds like a passing comment. But my friend asked her what do you mean. Well she said, you know prostitutes and gays and people like that should repent their sins. My friend was really offended that she would basically tell him he was a sinner because he was gay. Might not mean much to many of you, but it meant something to my friend. I even said it was no big deal cause it takes a lot to offend me, (hence my blog) but again he was made to feel wrong. Why is this tolerated and theleviteline is not. Where is the line drawn? I guess everyone is so busy defining where the line is drawn that they miss completely his point. This was fun. Shalom, God Bless, or whatever the hell you want. LMFAO And peace to all the ugly, fat, dumb people too. Wah wah wah don’t be so mean, don’t say mean things, like there are no FAT UGLY DUMB people. Maybe I am one of them. Fat ugly and or dumb. Ignorant like the rest of you, of course. Everyone is. OOO not me. I am not ignorant. Wah wah wah.

Comment by marcose on 1/06/12 at 12:57 am

Oh one more thing before I get bashed. Think in general people. Don’t come back at me ‘cause I said church and not temple or whatever. But come back at me if you want. Who am I to say do or don’t. I will leave that to the mindless religious institutions. LOL

Comment by marcose on 1/06/12 at 1:30 am

Marcose: For me, the line was drawn with “there are/were gas chambers for such willfully ignorant morons.”

Comment by Shani on 1/06/12 at 2:28 pm

That’s only because you haven’t been reading his ravings for over three years like me. And I am not surprised in the slightest that marcose gets what leviteline is saying. He comes off as very similar. I actually sort of suspect that they are the person with two accounts on the Jewish Journal. Although it is not impossible that there are more than one person like that around. I was once stopped on the street by a nondescript woman who asked me an innocuous question and followed up with a breathless ten minute brain dump involving people following her, the FBI and the Internet. So they are out there. Two more Ron Paul supporters, I suppose.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 1/09/12 at 3:23 pm

HaHa!  No, Ben, you’re right, I’m new to posting here (anywhere), and his comments were depressing to me. I had no idea readers were familiar with the particular commenter, so I’m sure you can imagine how odd his replies seemed within the context of reaction to the journal article.  Your last comment made me laugh, so the whole commentary now seems more silly than sinister.

Comment by Shani on 1/09/12 at 3:53 pm

OMG I am so laughing out loud. I can assure you that I am not him. And we are two different people and I am sure with many differing views. I really don’t have time to explain. I will leave you with this. I am a Landmark Education graduate. And have taken many high level courses with Landmark. If you know what this means then you can understand why I get this guy. Doesn’t mean I agree or disagree, just means I separate meaning from fact and I listen to what is said before I make my own interpretations. I made no judgments just pointed out what I heard. Check out Landmark Education and you may get your life out of it. Cheers!

Comment by marcose on 1/12/12 at 6:35 pm

This was some crazy stuff.  I wish I could that this was the.first time I have ever heard this kind of bull.  People relax.  I think an issue now for all of us is…  Do you believe?  Answers come from study.  Truth comes from G*d.  Just talk with G*d all will be answered.  I am Jewish believe that Jesus lived and hope that each find their way and atop trying to hurt.  I look for the truth and wish I could read Greek and for myself.  So what I am doing is learning just for myself.  G*d is personal.

Comment by mink leong on 1/26/12 at 7:51 am

JEWISH IDENTITIES FOR CHRISTIANS

I never thought about it much, but as a gatekeeper for Jewish identities in several Jewish population studies over the years, I’ve bounced more than a few Christians who seemed theologically inclined to describe themselves as Jewish,but beside their beliefs, nothing else pointed in that direction.  I just wouldn’t count them or told the interviewers to thank them, drop them and go on to the next interviews.  I wasn’t going to waste precious Jewish communal population research resources on “false positives.”

Brushing the phenomenon off, I never really collated the numbers or went back to do any special statistics or study about this.  I just grouped these Christians calling themselves Jews as non-Jews.

Well, according to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency in 1928

” In Utah Mormons Call Themselves Jews and Jews Are Considered “gentiles”

Then, of course, there are Messianics who define themselves as Jews and in their worldview is expressed in Yahoo Answers:

“Basically there are two kinds of Jews. Messianic Jews and Non Messianic Jews.”

Then we go on to Christians who stop believing in the New Testament and Jesus

Plenty of full-on Christians call themselves Jews - “Completed” Jews, “Messianic” Jews, “Grafted” Jews, etc.

Then there are Christians who believe that Christianity IS NOT a repudiation of Judaism. But Christianity is a fulfilling of Judaism and so as one respondent told me, he was the true Jew.

People can call themselves anything they like, but as a standard bearer and enforcer for the organized Jewish community, I have to draw the sociological line somewhere.  There are also many people who would be considered Jews by other Jews or the State of Israel, but I don’t include them in the Jewish count because they they refuse to consider themselves to be Jewish by religion or other means.

All of this would be of interest as dinner party conversation, but it turns out that is could be a component of rather large error in the newly published estimates of the the size of the American Jewish Community by a group at the Cohen Center for Modern Jewish Studies at Brandeis University.  Their estimate at 6.4 million is about a million Jews higher than previously accepted estimates.

In a previous blog I have put forth the arguments of where they may have made some methodological missteps and perhaps overreached in their ability to make accurate estimates with the demographic materials they have on hand.  Since they are relying on large survey datasets which haven’t been “cleaned” of Christians calling themselves Jews, its now a topic that may have to be researched and explored in order to find the prevalence of this phenomenon in order to control for it in this type of Jewish population research.

SEE MORE AT http://www.jewishjournal.com/demographic_duo

Comment by Pini Herman on 2/09/12 at 11:35 am

Pini, to group actual Messianic Jews (Jewish Christians) with Mormons is wrong.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 11:42 am

Pini is concerned with identifying Jews vs. non-Jews for population and identity studies.  He has no reason to care where non-Jews “group” themselves, (nor did he even make an attempt at it.)Christian groups seem not to know, or agree upon, their own DNA/conversion/observance facts, so attempts at accuracy are no small feat!

Comment by Shani on 2/09/12 at 1:28 pm

Many Christians are born as and remain ethnic Jews. Besides, not all Jews who are Messianic Jew or Jewish Christians even want to proselytize—I happen to be a Jewish Christian who refuses to proselytize, though I’m open about my faith.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 3:20 pm

Nicki, your statement is along the lines of what I was trying to say…because it brings another level of complication into the whole conundrum, which Pini discussed; who can be considered as “ethnic” Jews?  It’s such a complicated and fascinating topic. I like to think it’s a positive thing that while many in my grandparents generation tried to “hide” their ancestry, less than a century later I’ve met people who aren’t Jewish by birth, who think Jesus is God (which I was always taught was a no-no), yet identify so deeply with their understanding/concept of “Jewishness”, they call themselves Jews. I’ve met people who attend “messianic” churches who, unlike you, have no Jewish ancestry, but they feel they’re enriching their Christian practices by restyling them in some of the formats of traditional observance, (i.e. Haggadah), and they consider themselves to be Jewish.  Peronally, it’s really quite stunning to read teachings and quotes attributed to Jesus (the topics of the original article), because I’d been taught the widespread notion that Jesus tried to destroy Jewish beliefs and make himself an object of worship. When observing cultural practices since the Roman empire, everything points in that direction, yet this isn’t apparent when exploring NT writings through a lens of traditional Judaism. In the US, the identity issue seems to be making itself personal, whether it involves traditional observance, or spiritual conceptions, so it’s just about impossible to gather statistics on a population expanded upon without a working definition of who is encompassed within it.For me, it seemed impossible to be Jewish while believing some sort of “salvation” comes from a human sacrifice (explained as God sacrificing himself to himself?), a occured couple of decades before the chaos in 70 CE. Clearly, I never had any expanded version of the story, so it was hard to get my mind around who it tied to Judaism at all, and it seemed like another religion was trying to usurp Judaism through their own concept of “chosenness.” Sorry to go on so long…like I said, this topic is particularly interesting for me.

Comment by Shani on 2/09/12 at 7:29 pm

In terms of ethnic Jewishness, all one has to do is look at Tanakh—forget the nudnik goyim who claim themselves Jewish when they’re not. Yitzhak was the first Jew. Why? Because he was born of the promise. Then came Patrilineal Jews Ya’akov and Esav (and to be very frank, I believe that Esav was meant to represent Non-Messianic Jews). Then came B’nei-Yisra’el; then B’nei-Y’hudah, B’nei-Yosef, and Sha’ul ben-Shimon (whose mother was a Kena’anit); then B’nei-Menashe by an Aramit concubine.

As for me, I myself am a Patrilineal Jew, born of Anusim with some Anusim who became Messianic (long story). By the way, I agree that there are Matrilineal Jews—Timothy was the “mamzer” son of a Yehudit and a Yavani.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 7:48 pm

If you believe Jesus was a savior, prophet, or god you are not Jewish.
It is as simple as that. All branches of Judaism agree on this issue. Secular Jews, as well, know that if you have a belief in an anointed one you are not Jewish. Jews who are atheist have no use for such beliefs because they don’t have a belief in deities in the first place. For 2000 years people have tried to convince Jews to be “complete”, etc. We don’t want it.
Your Christianity is beautiful but it is not our way.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 2/09/12 at 7:55 pm

Phillip, by your logic, haredim aren’t Jewish since they believe that Menachem Mendel Schneerson is Mashiach. You can’t change ethnicity.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 8:20 pm

By the way, Phillip, I hate to wreck your naches but Brad Greenberg is a Messianic Jew.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 8:26 pm

No, he’s not. He’s a God-fearing Christian with devilishly good Jewish looks. (and that concludes my only foray into referring to myself in the second person.)

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 2/09/12 at 8:29 pm

Brad, you don’t have to be fully Jewish to be Jewish—which took me a while to realize.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 8:34 pm

There is no “part Jew”. Either you are Jewish or you are not.
And I said if you believe in Jesus you can’t be Jewish. Sneerson was not Jesus. Most Jews of any strand do not have a belief in him.
If you believe in Jesus you believe or participate on a very different theology.
It’s ok. It’s beautiful. It’s not Jewish. Just like pork can not be kosher

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 2/09/12 at 8:40 pm

Phillip, Jews for Judaism would be a more appropriate place for you to proselytize and pick fights.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 8:45 pm

Interesting. I a Jew post a bit about Jewish parameters, accepted by all Jews for 1000s of years and you a Christian, in a Jewish newspaper claim I engage in an un-Jewish activity like proselytizing. If it quacks like…a projection…

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 2/09/12 at 9:01 pm

Say what you want, but you’re trying to proselytize Non-Messianic Judaism. As I said, I’m not here to pick fights.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/09/12 at 9:06 pm

Be serious. Philip’s proselytizing? To whom? (And so what if he is?) There’s nothing coercive about saying Jews are Jews.Philip is reiterating established, accepted rules that have been in place for centuries.  These are facts, not ideals or delusions. Believing that someone other than God is God, is not Jewish; whether you’re observant or not. And Christianity seems very beautiful (I’m awestruck by some of the incredible “Madonna” paintings), and I deeply admire so many Christians. Re:Chabad:I don’t think it’s taught that Rabbi Schneerson was God, or claimed that Schneerson is the creator of the universe? I don’t know who Timothy is, and I have no idea what you’re referring to with the Timothy/mamzer thing…I know this is a stupid question, but I really don’t know the answer.  Messianic Jews believe they are Jews, but they don’t believe other Christians are Jews?  Is the difference based on DNA, or having been raised in a Jewish home? Or do Messianics have a different understanding of Jesus than other Christian groups? No offense intended, I swear. I will not feel that you are proselytizing by answering my questions. Re:Anuism:Forced conversion is a perfect example of a very logical reason why Christianity has seemed horrific!In any case, there’s a world-wide understanding that if you have a Jewish mother (and in some sects, mother or father), you’re Jewish. If you have converted through the authority of a beit din, you’re Jewish. It seems simple, but American religious freedom has changed the landscape of ancestral/cultural/ethnic belief systems. It seems we need additional parameters in order to establish accuracy in polls intended to provide data on Jewish identity in the US.

Comment by Shani on 2/10/12 at 11:10 am

Oh, duh…I just got the “Timothy” comment.  Timothy is an NT author, right? The mamzer status is supposed to prove he was a Jew? Sorry for the confusion.

Comment by Shani on 2/10/12 at 11:19 am

Timothy did help write down letters to Paul wrote down. Meanwhile, I’m not arguing about what Phillip’s doing anymore. I just won’t be goaded into a fight. Phillip and you hold your beliefs; I’ll hold mine.

Comment by Nickidewbear on 2/10/12 at 6:54 pm

I am NOT “goading”, nor am I “fighting”. I’m sorry that my attempt at discussion appears as such, but I understand. I honestly would love to dialogue about the subjects we’ve touched upon, but this is an awkward place for such a thing. Is there a discussion forum somewhere?  I am sure this entire conversation would seem completely different in tone if I could be more thorough in relating my thoughts, and not have to communicate in quick bursts over several months time. Shabbat Shalom, Nickidewbear.

Comment by Shani on 2/10/12 at 7:23 pm

Though little if anything I say will be respected because the bullies don’t like me (as if I really care).  Y’all prove what should be beyond obvious.  That is the folly of religion and the closed-minded, intolerant, bigots that run many of them.  However the Orthodox Jews and Roman Catholics continue to prove themselves far and away the worst.  Then this continuous willful ignorance, if not demand of ignorance and silence on such a vital subject.  In that sense this discussion here is excellent, as a start.

What is also disgusting and funny is how certain Jewish respondents love to focus on the worst Christians and their worst ideas as reasons to reject Jesus.  Just completely unjust, unfair and immoral.  Read the freakin’ alleged words of Jesus for yourself, then condemn, criticize, love or hate Jesus.  But to go by the worst aspects of certain Christian groups is just a way to confirm what you really wanted to do from the start, reject Jesus.  I guess you have to or mommy, daddy, your rabbi and community will throw your a**es out and disown you, if you accept Jesus.  Even an even-handed approach to the Gospels may get you expelled.  You know what, such a community is not worth being part of.  Besides if people think they can disown you, they apparently must currently own you.  You REALLY need to get away (I know from whence I speak) from them.  Ignoring Jesus or being brain-washed against or even for Him is bad.  Any decent teacher encourages you the student to make up his or her own mind.  If they are telling you what to believe or think, this is NOT thinking, this is brain-washing.  I despise it and can see it is very common here as well as other places.

Comment by theleviteline.com on 2/11/12 at 12:59 am

To the moderator:  Why are certain contributors allowed more words while most are limited?  Are you those people who express such provocative thoughts just to evoke more comments?  Or are you the person who makes these extremely long comments?

Comment by sleeper on 2/27/12 at 1:46 am

~ Lashon HaRa !
~ Rachum !
Your unG-dly words on this blog prove to me that you can read. You must stop talking (typing) and do just that. Read the Book you say you believe in. Learn the concepts it teaches. Act in the ways it commands of us. This goes for ALL ! Such angry words come from those not ready. I am not judging you. I care about you just as we are taught to do. Don’t bother saying angry things in response to me as I will not be back here to read them. I will pray for you all.

Comment by G-d's Child on 3/09/12 at 5:58 am

We share many aspects of our religion with Christians but please don’t forget St. Simon of Trent.  This portrayal of a blood libel against Jews was propagated until St. Simon was removed from the Christian Calendar of Saints in 1965.  This was recent history.

Comment by stephen melinger on 5/04/12 at 10:10 am

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