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December 3, 2008 5:01 pm PST

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Brad, Brad, Brad.

What about this story makes it either Jewish or God-related? Just because you have found a raunchy creep with a personality disorder in the news, why do the anti-semites’ work for them? Is there really a trend or wave of Jewish creeps in the news? Could the trend be that Jews are under-represented in these kinds of dealings? Do we really have to find a context for this with raunchier, more disturbed and disgusting creeps who are not Jewish? And this is the second time. A little self-examination is called for.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/04/08 at 9:14 am

A fair point. I, personally, find this creep, who happens to be Jewish, entertaining. I doubt very much, though, that his religious beliefs provide the impetus for his behavior.

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 6/04/08 at 10:11 am

Don’t companies get sued for sexual harassment all the time? I tend to be a little suspicious when lawsuits “appear” on TMZ.

Comment by Jon on 6/04/08 at 1:54 pm

“...Could the trend be that Jews are under-represented in these kinds of dealings?“

Please. This is Los Angeles we’re talking about. Due to the confluence of a peponderance of yids in the industry, obscenely large amounts of money, and the casting couch, this sort of behaviour is alot more common, than anyone wants to think about or discuss in polite conversation. If anything at all,  Jewish representation is under-reported.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/04/08 at 3:39 pm

Welcome to California, the Sue Me State. Had this lawsuit taken place in Albany New York, we may not have heard about it. But in LA there are journalists sitting at the Court buildings just sniffing through documents recently filed for “juice.“ No wonder this last lawsuit was broken on TMZ before the company was even served.

And Jon, you’re right. I work in the fashion industry and EVERY major fashion label/retailer has these kinds of lawsuits, and it’s even more rampant in California. You name the brand, there is a discrimination/hostile work environment/sexual harassment lawsuit to match. We dont hear about them, because who really cares about what Quiksilver or Guess or Forever 21 or Abercrombie is doing. They don’t have an “entertaining” “Jewish hustler” to caricature. Let’s face it - Dov’s Jewishness and the loud (admittedly too loud at times) success of his company is the perfect target for anti-semitic criticism. Personally, I think he’s built an unbelievable business, mainly thanks to his “Jewish hustler” roots, and I feel sorry for the way the kid has been vilified. I guess we’ll see if the “dirty Jew” can come out on top this time.

Comment by enough already on 6/05/08 at 9:19 am

I admit to ignorance of the prevailing culture of Los Angeles, although the LA Jews I have met personally have been unremarkable. But as I said elsewhere around here, to the extent it is anything but human failing, this kind of behavior comes more from a flight and rebellion from Jewish truths and values, or at best a dysfunctional remnant of diaspora abuse than from a Jewish identity.

There are numerous examples and studies of this phenomenon, the upshot being that the Jewish founders of the Hollywood industry tried to erase their identity, and resented references to it other than perhaps at funerals.

Maybe the way to apprehend my point is to consider other ‘ethnic’ publications focusing on unheroic and repellant characters of their ethnicity. You won’t see it. The term ‘TMI’ comes to mind.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/05/08 at 9:58 am

Not only do I find LA Jews to be unremarkable, I find the entire American Jewish community(both religous & secular) to be hypocritical, common, & twisted. Yes, the trailer trash of judaism.

“... this kind of behavior comes more from a flight and rebellion from Jewish truths and values, or at best a dysfunctional remnant of diaspora abuse than from a Jewish identity.“

Please.

You don’t need to be Israeli to know that Israel is filled with lecherous lounge lizard types, politicians(even a President) and army officers who rape their secretaries as a matter of course, not to mention a fair amount of child molestation in both the secular and religous communities.

“...Maybe the way to apprehend my point is to consider other ‘ethnic’ publications focusing on unheroic and repellant characters of their ethnicity.“

This is a false dichotomy. Since we are citizens of the United States of White America, all publications that are not expressly labeled otherwise, or printed in a different language, would have to fall into the provence of white, gentile literature. That being said, the newspapers are filled with lurid accounts of depraved christian behaviour. Not ever having read Ebony or any other African American publication, I’m not in a position to attest as to whether or not they air their dirty laundry in public. And as I don’t speak spanish, vietnamese, japanese, tagalog, etc, etc, I cannot attest as to whether or not the papers that are written in these languages do either. Though as we well know, sex & perversion sells in any language, so I find it difficult to believe that they wouldn’t report on such behaviour in their own communities.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/05/08 at 1:20 pm

Considering that you do not offer an example of a subset of Jews that is not negative (other than yourself presumably) your opinion is not useful. After all, half of any population has to be better than average, unless in your opinion most Jews are worse than average. That internalized conflict and low self-esteem would account greatly for your generally hostile
tone. I would say that a standard bell curve would be just the starting point for a view of the Jewish population, and then corrected with a weight to the higher values based on their advanced and highly developed values and culture.

As far as Israel is concerned, you know from our previous interactions under your former identity that I do not not consider Israel to be a non-Diaspora society. It may even be the belly of the Diaspora beast, culturally that is. And I consider the American component of Israeli Jews to be the most enlightened and free of the hidebound Old Worldviews that so limit their crummy former host countries (mostly dating from when they threw their Jews out). In the words of the great Caroline B. Glick, Israel and America are the most happenin’ places on Earth.

I don’t know what dichotomy you are talking about, but the Amsterdam News does not highlight black (as such) criminals or rogues, the Irish Echo does not focus on the worst examples of Irish behavior, if they report such they will represent the ethnicity of the rogue as a coincidence. That is human nature, but not Jewish nature for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/06/08 at 8:44 am

Oh, yeah, almost forgot. Before any Jew gives this animal a pass on his behaviour on the basis of his judaism or for any other reason, imagine your daughter working for this pig. If there was any justice at all, this guy would be dragged out of his factory and horse whipped, and if the Jewish community had any honor or self-respect, they would be the ones meting out the punishment.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/06/08 at 8:48 am

“...After all, half of any population has to be better than average, unless in your opinion most Jews are worse than average.“

Not necessarily. Normally, I would imgaine due to such things as education and economics those numbers would fluctuate accordingly. But since you and most of the community have decided to place the Jews and the Jewish community outside of the normal standards of behaviour, that equation obviously does not apply but an interesting sociological insight all the same. Any numbers to back that up Professor, or are you again proferring your opinions as some sort of peer-reviewed fact?

“...That internalized conflict and low self-esteem would account greatly for your generally hostile
tone.“

Interesting hypothesis Dr. Freud. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Hostility issues? Nothing that complicated or involved. Simply an abilty to be honest about ones own flaws, taking personal responsabilty for my own behavior while recognizing that such behaviour is but a fractile of the behaviour of the larger encompassing community coupled with the observations based on my 44 years of having had the pleasure of the company of people such as yourself, who alternate between denial, convoluted and mis-interpreted talmudic rationalizations, and ethnic chavaunism when anybody calls them on their horsesh*t.

“...As far as Israel is concerned, you know from our previous interactions under your former identity that I do not not consider Israel to be a non-Diaspora society. It may even be the belly of the Diaspora beast, culturally that is. And I consider the American component of Israeli Jews to be the most enlightened and free of the hidebound Old Worldviews that so limit their crummy former host countries (mostly dating from when they threw their Jews out).“

Well as YOU know from our previous converstaions, since people such as yourself did not build the state, did not serve the state, at present are working to subvert the legitamate government of the state, your views about who are the good Israelis and who aren’t from the vantage point of Fresh Meadows(btw, talk to Ben-Pesach much?), are not credible nor are they relevant. However, regarding;

“...that I do not not consider Israel to be a non-Diaspora society”

I’m reminded of the 30 year old guy who goes around blaming his dysfunctional parents for his failures in life. The Israeli culture is the only uncorrupted representation of Jewish culture, if for no other reasons than speaking hebrew and living according to a Jewish calendar and therfore a Jewish rhythm, and at least until 1977, a culture that had not been infected by an American Jewish agenda. There have been several generations of Isarelis born since 1948. Contrary to your supposition, Israelis give every indication of not only being ready and willing to take responsability for their own behaviour but to communicate that responsability to the outside world on their terms, irregardless of the discomfort of a few cloistered american shtetl yids.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/06/08 at 9:46 am

“Before any Jew gives this animal a pass on his behaviour on the basis of his judaism or for any other reason”.

Why would you say that? Nobody is giving him a pass, least of all for his judaism. He doesn’t have any judaism other than some DNA. My point wasa that he is an embarrassment to Jews. I wish he would at least change his name and deny he is a Jew. Judaism is what you are and what you do.

To say “half of any population has to be better than average” is just a truism. To say “most Jews are worse than average” is just a joke that apparently went below your radar. As far as numbers go, just draw up a list of social positives and do the research on Jewish populations and you will have your numbers. I once suggested to you (to no response of course) that you consult your local LA service agency for the incidence of social problems associated specifically with Jews and beyond that with observant and religious Jews. There will be your numbers.

There is much good in Israel, but their political system and attachment to the worst of foreign culture is not one of them. It is in fact easier for me to observe this from the outside, perhaps that is why God had me born outside. You on the other hand are incredibly naive and closed minded with regard to the legitimacy of the non-representative ship of fools running the state, and the reality of its enemies.

In any case, diaspora is as much a spiritual and mental state as a physical one. You don’t seem like much of a redeemed soul yourself, especially since your great contribution to the cause was to sail in as a free-as-a-lark youngster, gripe and bitch about your duty, stick with Americans and then scoot. I thionk there is more than cigar going on here.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/07/08 at 6:09 pm

I never griped and bitched about anything. My service was one of the more rewarding experinces of my life, I met my wife while serving together in the IDF, and gained the sort of understanding of Jews and Judaism that could only be gained from being immersed amongst Jews who are “whole” men and women, not mutated yids in the form of tervya the milkman hiding in the ghetto, screaming victimhood and anti-semitism from the rooftops of Queens. BTW, I served with only two other olim in my particualr unit actively, and none in my reserve unit.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/08/08 at 4:31 am

“...As far as numbers go, just draw up a list of social positives and do the research on Jewish populations and you will have your numbers.“

The ultra-orthodox don’t report most of the Jew-on-Jew crime in their communities and then actively engage in covering up those crimes after the fact(thereby making them complicit, btw) The secular community, while reporting the crimes themselves, do so in a half-hearted manner, and then engage in a public-relations campaign to ameliorate the effects of the revelations, then in the usual knee-jerk fashion, retreat from the prospect of any sort of jewish societal introspection lest it should reflect badly on the community.

If these are the sources from which your statistics are being harvested, than said research is useless, as the numbers that it is based on would be necessarily suspect and therefore irrelevant in regards to any serious, objective study of deviant and amoral behaviour in the Jewish Community.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/08/08 at 8:11 am

I would have to take your word for it if I had not personally seen your griping and bitching about your service protecting Jewish land and civilians over the Green Line. And I do think you should avoid drawing attention to your superficial and distorted understanding of Jews and Judaism. (I am happy for you about your marriage.)

You have no information on ultra-Orthodox people and life other than the anecdotal incident or slander. Where are your statitics? You think you learned an itty bit in the IDF? My family has been chareidi for centuries, and in place in Jerusalem before the first political Zionist was a gleam in his fathers’s eye. The only place comparable to your comments that I see the degree of ultra-Orthodox hatred is on antisemitic websites and materials. This is typical among those who have no Jewish core and so have internalized the slurs of their surrounding lowlifes. Most Jews are proud of themselves, their people, and if not chareidi are affectionate of them as the front lines in practicing a total Jewish life style. You yourself have more in common with the potty mouth hustler described above, in that not having a Jewish core of his own, he borrows and mimics from the most flamboyant and crude behavior. All you know of Judaism is the insecure self-hatred of the ignorant elite wanabees.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/08/08 at 9:12 am

“..I would have to take your word for it if I had not personally seen your griping and bitching about your service protecting Jewish land and civilians over the Green Line.“

As usual, a self-serving mischaracterization designed to rationalize the cowardice and sedition of terrorists and hooligans. I didn’t complain. I made an observation pertaining to the fact that the settlers and their subsidized life was not worth the life of either myself, my comrades, my brothers-in-law, my nephews, and any other hard working Israeli taxpayer that might find himself risking life and limb for people who spend every waking hour attempting to disenfarnchise them politically and spiritually. Taht beeing said, I did my duty unquestioningly whether I approved of the policy or not. Got a problem with that, vic? Heres an idea, try getting the Israeli government to lift the ban on your entry into the country, become a miluimnik and pick up the slack. Until then, its just alot of sour grapes on the part of someone who could never compete in the game, so instead claims the game is un-fair and illegitamate.

“...The only place comparable to your comments that I see the degree of ultra-Orthodox hatred is on antisemitic websites and materials.“

Spoken like a true american yid, stuck in the shtetl. Speaking of which, vic. I was wondering, is that bagel place on Hoarace Harding and Utopia still there?, I’ll be in queens in august and I could really use a bialy, If you consider Harretz, Maariv, Yehidiot Aharanot, to be anti-semitic, than yes. The journalists who have wrote these articles, make any utterances of mine pale in comparison to the vitriol that is directed toward the dosim by these publications. Anti-Semitic? No. Anti-Haredi? Anti-Kahana? Anti-Racist, Anti-Hilltop Youth? Anti-Parasite? Anti Seditionist? Yes, absolutely.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/08/08 at 9:47 am

Haaretz is throroughly foreign enemy controlled. Even what isn’t foreign controlled wants to be. The ‘failed state/please-rape-us/wet-dream’ incident by David Landau to Condaleeza Rice proves that. The others are simply neutral on things they shouldn’t be. Israel does not have the luxury to be neutral.

The Israeli government itself is seditionist with regard to the authentic Constitution of the Jewish nation.

If you are after a good bialy, don’t waste your time in Queens. Kossar’s on Grand Street off Essex in Manhattan.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/08/08 at 11:45 am

Kossar’s eh? Okay, I’ll give it a shot.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/08/08 at 11:57 am

“Oh, yeah, almost forgot. Before any Jew gives this animal a pass on his behaviour on the basis of his judaism or for any other reason, imagine your daughter working for this pig. If there was any justice at all, this guy would be dragged out of his factory and horse whipped, and if the Jewish community had any honor or self-respect, they would be the ones meting out the punishment.“

This easily ranks as one of the fugliest statements I have ever read! Has the man been convicted of any crimes? Have any of the accusations against him been proven? Is it in fact the Jewish community’s role to punish its own members? And if so shouldn’t we punish people who rely on sweat shops and child laborers to manufacture clothing? Or who drive SUVs? The man employs over 5000 people, pays them fair wages and gives them awesome benefits, uses solar energy for 30% of his factory’s power, uses organic cotton for 40% of his apparel, manufactures exclusively in the US when others have been lured by the cheap prices of overseas factories who produce the stuff they do for so little because they pay their employees a pittance and have no environmental or labor standards that they need to follow. Shoded Yam - you’re clearly possessed by some kind of vile, irrational hatred that has no basis in reality. I am stunned. You really need to realign your priorities.

Comment by Bolinat on 6/21/08 at 2:29 pm

If you are new around here, Shoded Yam is indeed posessed by a vile, irrational hatred. He typically puts up a straw man and responds to it. As I pointed out before all, there is no hint of any Jew giving the animal a pass. He is barely Jewish in any way, his actions are un-Jewish, and the mystery to me is why he is taken seriously by anyone at all for one thing, and even more why his antics are reported in a Jewish publication.

I imagine Shoded Yam going around talking and arguing with himself all day long, and unfortunately the internet has given him the means to share the experience.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/21/08 at 4:41 pm

Wioth all due respect Ben Ploine, I know that you are often the voice of moderation when it comes to the rantings of our little pirate friend Shoded Yam, but I have issues with your comments too. Dov Charney is as Jewish as you and I. Besides having 2 Jewish parents, he has yichus - his uncle is world-famous architect Moshe Safdie who designed, amongst other things, the new Ben Gurion Airport and the new Yad Vashem Memorial. But let’s put that aside for a moment.

His actions ought to be judged in toto. His company is a remarkable exercise in moral capitalism. Besides everything else that I have already mentioned, he has opened 2 American Apparel stores in Israel (Tel Aviv and Jerusalem), he provides free bicycles to any employee who rides to work (and there’s a bike mechanic on staff too), free massages, subsidized lunches, free long distance calls, and a variety of classes like civics and ESL.

So what’s the Jewish angle here? I mean besides the fact that he gladly provides a number of Jewish organizations t-shirts at below wholesale prices? it’s the story that has yet to be written - namely how sad it is that the grandchildren of the survivors of the Triangle Shirt Waist Factory have sold out the ideals that their ancestors died for. How many Jewish American owned schmatte factories have been closed down and relocated to the 3rd world? How many of our Jewish communal leaders are making mad money thanks to the labor of children and underpaid adults who work in factories that are hellish and horribly pollute the environment?

Judaism is not about gross exploitation. Granted, Charney is unusual in his openness, and his ideas on sexuality may be somewhat provocative but who is perfect? Are you all Sabbath observant? Do you keep kosher? Do you bless after every meal? Let’s all try not to be too judgmental and let’s try not to be suckered by prevailing sentiment and a grossly litigious culture.

Comment by Bolinat on 6/22/08 at 1:34 am

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t know Dov from a hole in the wall, and he is what he is. You seem to know him well, and a profile on him with the kind of material you provide might be interesting. I have nothing against him ‘personaly’ to judge him one way or the other. As a Jew, I might even be a little extra motivated if applicable to give him a pint of blood or bone marrow, if not to invite him over for dinner.

However, we are all of many parts. The fault if any if to report this in the LAJJ, and more so in ‘The God Blog’. I am male, American, middle aged, Jewish, a husband and father etc. If I was to streak across the set of Good Morning America, is that a Jewish story? Or does is belong in AARP?

The truth is that Shoded Yam would get his shorts in a wedgie if the Jewish Community actually did take extracurricular action against someone like him (just by the way, in the Syrian-Jewish Community and some others they would).

Also, let’s not compare bringing disgrace and ridicule upon the community to not blessing after meals. Human/God, public/private, lowlife/highlife issues are entirely different. Even in a religious sense public behavior and reputation and community involve different kinds of violations, and the story involves human and cultural aspects as well as strictly ‘spiritual’.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/22/08 at 5:52 am

“Also, let’s not compare bringing disgrace and ridicule upon the community to not blessing after meals.“

Oh Ben… you seem like such a reasonable guy and I hate to disagree with you but… blessing after meals is actually VERY important. It’s a mitzvah deoraytah, meaning it comes directly from the Torah and is actually considered more important than daily prayer - kinda like how even the most modest sabbath is more important than Yom Kippur.

There’s also no sin of “bringing disgrace and ridicule upon the community” - given the motivations of those most likely to ridicule the community on the basis of the actions of one individual, this is not something we ought to take seriously. Here’s a perfect example - a bunch of Nazis talking about Dov and his application of the “usual degenerate Jew values” - I don’t know if URLs are allowed here but if they are you can read what these Nazis have to say at http://www.newsnet14.com/2008/06/17/made-in-usa-the-label-that-is-killing-us/

So do we really care what these idiots have to say about Jews? I know I certainly don’t run my life on the basis of what may or may not offend the innately unreasonable - and I am being kind here.

The Jewish value you might be thinking of is called Chillul Hashem, where we seek to avoid desecrating God’s name by our actions. Dov is an avowed atheist - like Michael Steinhardt, and nothing he does is any reflection on God. Having said that, in many ways, American Apparel is a company to be emulated - despite 5 lawsuits alleging a sexually hostile work environment, none of which have to date resulted in a verdict against the company (3 dismissed, 1 pending, 1 just filed).

As for the other issues you bring up - you raise a good question. For instance, Modiglianni was an artist who was Jewish. Does that make his art Jewish art? What qualifies as a Jewish story? Was the mere fact of Charney’s Jewishness sufficient to make this a Jewish story? I suspect that Charney’s significant media profile and the titillating nature of this story and his persona were sufficient motivation for the editorial decision to cover this story. What can you do? People gotta sell papers!

That having been said, please, PLEASE do NOT “streak across the set of Good Morning America” - if not for me then at least for the sake of the children. It’s all about the children…

Comment by Bolinat on 6/22/08 at 9:54 am

Bolinat, you are stretching every point out of recognition. First of all, I didn’t come here to beat up or defend Charney. I am taking the information at face value since I don;t know the person. I didn’t call him an animal, I was quoting the animal who did.

I think what you are expressing in ‘who is perfect?‘ is the Christian formulation of “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, which can easily be shown to prevent any judgment or opinion about anything at all by anyone. Lets’ make a couple of useful distinctions herre. One - is in not confusing ‘Jew’ and ‘Jewish’. Dove Charney is a Jew by birth. To say that “Dov Charney is as Jewish as you and I”, well I don’t know about you but if his persona is not recognizable as informed by Jewish values and prioities then, no, he is not. Being Jewish involves who you are and what you do. He’s an atheist. Let’s not quibble. He may or may not have wonderful human qualities. He may or may not be smart, good looking, talented, fair, entertaining or any number of things. But you may know that with all of the reverence we Jews extend to a Sefer Torah, even a beautiful and perfect one written by a spiritual denier must be burned. Leave aside how we know and who judges. Let’s just keep it simple.

Bearing in mind the overrriding holistic quality of Judaism, and the interdependence of all of its components, neverthless the first-cut distinction that can be made in the commandments is for those between man and God, and those between man and man. Examining the first and second five of the Ten Commandments should be your first hint. By our creed, God will not intervene in those between man and man, and I would say that is perhaps the critical difference in Christian and Jewish doctrine. Besides the belief system, we say that crime and injustice to humans will not be forgiven by God.

Operationally, those for God are private and abstract and for the most part affect no other person directly, as in the Shabbat, the blessing after meals, the lulav etc. However, those between man and man obviously do affect others. You are correct that I am referring to Chillul Hashem, and let’s not play word games. In its placement and in practice it is considered among the severest of sins (Lev 18:21). it undermines the integrity of God and Torah, and does strengthen opponents of God and Torah. Not just Nazis, also ordinary rebels and mockers and the confused and ignorant. And the community of Jews is an ambassador of the presence and involvement and will of God on earth. To give fuel to Jew-haters and self-haters is thus likewise an aspect of Chillul Hashem.

To somberly upgrade blessing after meals to be the final exam and and then downgrade Chillul Hashem to a ‘value’ is beyond confusing, it is irrelevant to anyone not committed to the system.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/22/08 at 7:23 pm

Hi again Ben,
I know you didn’t call Charney an animal. That’s cool.

But keeping things simple - Charney is indeed as Jewish as the Lubavitcher Rebbe. If Charney were to write a sefer torah, it would indeed be posul but that relates to the quality of his belief, not his status as a Jew.

As to Chillul Hashem, it is indeed a severe sin. But it has to do with any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in God, any aspect of the Torah’s teachings, or Jewish law. Not something that reflects badly on Jews or the Jewish community. Look at Leviticus 22:32 - “And ye shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel” - nothing that Dov Charney does or allegedly does (let’s not forget that presumption of innocence thing that is the hallmark of our justice system) is any reasonable reflection on Judaism as a religion. To use the standard that you are advancing would mean that any Jewish person in the public eye would have to be held to an unbelievable standard of conduct lest she or he be perceived as a representative of the Jewish people… and God! that’s kind of harsh! And given Leviticus 18:21 which implies that profaning God’s name is an abomination, Jews would by necessity have to avoid the spotlight lest they inadvertently act in any way that might offend someone somewhere.

Clearly this is not the case. Dov Charney does not represent God by mere dint of the fact that he happens to be a Jew.

Comment by bolinat on 6/22/08 at 9:24 pm

“...I imagine Shoded Yam going around talking and arguing with himself all day long, and unfortunately the internet has given him the means to share the experience.“

The fact that you’re so obesessed with me, is amusing, though pathetic. Though your actual visage is good for a few laughs vic, if pressed, I guess I could conjure up an image of a 50+ year old ex-convict, skipping around some dump in Queens, in a pair of none-to-clean boxers, tsitsim flying in the wind, screaming invectives in Mandarin Chinese and quaffing Mad Dog 20/20, while being chased around by a pro with a feather duster, who posseses a vague but unfortunate resemblance to Nipsey Russell.

BTW, re.“...The truth is that Shoded Yam would get his shorts in a wedgie if the Jewish Community actually did take extracurricular action against someone like him (just by the way, in the Syrian-Jewish Community and some others they would)“.

You know what the truth is Vic? The truth is you about crapped in you’re britches when you found out I was gonna show up 2 blocks from your house. But as I said, all that is behind me now;-). Come, lets have a bialy and a cup of a coffee and you can tell me what a stand-up guy kahane was:-)

As for Mr. Bolinat,

I noticed that American Apparel has a nice big banner ad over at Jewlicious. Your vested interest in promoting this scumbag has been duly noted. BTW, Not only is Dov Charney a pig, not only does he deserve to be horsewhipped, but a Jewish Community that would protect this degenerate, deserves all the contempt and condemmnation that such cowardice deserves. Don’t think for one minute, that rationalizions for your lack of self-control and penchant for over-indulgence such as;

“Granted, Charney is unusual in his openness, and his ideas on sexuality may be somewhat provocative but who is perfect?“

are acceptable any longer in the jewish community or anywhere else. People like Dov Charney will be dealt with one way or the other, in this world or the next, whether you like it or not, sparky. I wouldn’t worry too much though. It’s a good bet Dov has retained the finest shysters money can buy. I’m sure they’re “magic”, even as we speak.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/24/08 at 4:15 pm

bolinat
As I post, I see that this response has become overlong, because you mixing in issues on so many levels. Oh, well.
In trying to get a handle on responding to you, I am not sure what we are talking about anymore. I started this by questioning the Jewish quotient of the story of Charney’s repellant and unarguably un-Jewish personal behavior (not his birth status or brith status or his yichus). You seem to be saying that Charney is a Jew in good standing because of his ethical business practices. That isn’t what the story is about, however at least not anymore. I followed up the links provided and their sources and they confirm my own take; no Jewish angle. It’s not like I am using my imagination here:

The original TMZ story DOES NOT CONTAIN A REFERENCE to the word or idea of ‘Jew’ or ‘Judaism’. The Mother Jones blog entries do not etc. The MSNBC story . . . The ABC News story . . .  Businesswire . . . New York Times . . . Jane Magazine as far as I can tell. Only our ‘friendsters’ The Forward, The Jewish Journal, Jewlicious et al. Are we that needy for celebrity that we have to use this kind of incident for attention? “Hey, listen up, he’s Jewish yo!“ Desperation is not cool. Thanks a bunch.

It took some re-reading of the thread, but it seems that you take issue with my saying “He doesn’t have any judaism other than some DNA. My point was that he is an embarrassment to Jews. I wish he would at least change his name and deny he is a Jew. Judaism is what you are and what you do.“ I haven’t seen these points answered yet. We could talk about what the Jews think of who or what is Jewish; which Jews think that way about what other Jews; what atheists or non-Jews or the public at large or antisemites think of Jews or what is Jewish ... You are speaking of a very technical distinction. In a certain context, Pee Wee Herman is as much an actor as Laurence Olivier and as Jewish as the Lubavitcher Rebbe too. In a certain context, Charney is as Jewish as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but that is of no practical meaning for us here. Like, my wife once used an old Polish cleaning woman who told us that her mother’s mother was Jewish. Charney is more like as Jewish as Duddy Kravitz (both from Montreal… what’s up with Montreal?), or Howard Stern or Courtney Love or ‘Marilyn Manson’ or Philip Roth or Gene Simmons or David Lee Roth. Come to think of it (a rare nod to Shoded Yam) maybe not as Jewish as Gene Simmons. There are lots of meritocratic ways to rate one’s ‘status’ as a Jew, for anything that involves more than just showing up.

As far as who reflects what on whom and who should care, it depends on identification. When the first top modifier in a headline is ‘Jewish’, then it reflects on the Jews and opens up to question the Jewish factor and influence on the events of the story. If you think that the people I mentioned above, plus Borat and Henry Kissinger and Jon Stewart are not seen and judged as Jews in the world you are not being objective, or are at least looking at a small cultural subset through blinders.  I object to his being held up as an example of one.

You have a good grasp of the scope of chillul Hashem, as much as you would like to encapsulate from the idea from the material world. I double checked my instinct about this and I am correct. Jews are not just people and a nation, suffice it for now to say that they represent an actualization of a model nation and civilization and priesthood for the eternal benevolant creator and sustainer comprising the context for all of the known, unknown and unknowable, absoute truth and reality. To oversimplify. This is part of the history and spiritual unconscious of all humanity, whether they support or seek to destroy it. It is not a relevant response to say ‘there isn’t, he doesn’t, they aren’t’ and so forth. That’s how we know ourselves and how the world came to know us. That idea is the most powerful possible for anyone once thinking seriously about those matters, and cannot be degraded or go away no matter how many knishes and klezmers and Dov’s are reported on and made the center of our focus. Even in the opening post of this blog, Charney pulling out his penis is referred to as flashing his sign of covenant. Cute, but it certainly wasn’t in Charney’s mind and looks like an attempt at degredation. A chillul Hashem.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/25/08 at 10:39 am

Shoded Yam
The obsession is all yours. Besides the fact that for a moment your name came up in bolinat’s post, if it really annoys you I can link to the forum post of mine regarding you you lifted that idea from. I can also link you to where I educated you about Kahane. Ooh, KaHAne . . . He was everything you claim to admire with the exception of posessing the truth which you prefer to blind yourself to. Luckily, his books, articles and videos are still available so that you can actually know what you are talking about. As they say, “Today a bialy, tomorrow Kahane!“

It is a relief anyway that the britches thing was about you. I thought it might have been salmonella from a bad tomato.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/25/08 at 10:44 am

Good come back chuckles. Next time take the marbles out of your mouth. Annoyance? As I said, your a lunatic. As such, you’re entertaining, but not important enough to generate any sort of response that would take that much effort.

“..As they say, “Today a bialy, tomorrow Kahane”

“As they say; “Today a Kahanist, tommorow a terrorist, the day after that, Administartive Detention, and if all goes well, a bullet in the head while trying to escape.

Re. “... can also link you to where I educated you about Kahane”

Please. You mean where I debunked your public relations campaign?

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/25/08 at 11:12 am

Oh Shoded Yam! What a presumptuous pirate you are. The comment section asked me for a URL so I added one of a site I like to visit. I have nothing to do with Jewlicious.com, nor do I have any affiliation with American Apparel although I am wearing one of their boy briefs as we speak. And they are pretty hot…

As for our vaunted Jewish community, it is not their role to either condemn, defend or judge Mr. Charney, at least not in this case. But Jews don’t or ought not call other Jews “animals.“ We also don’t much go for extra-judicial flogging. The values you are espousing here are pretty foreign to Judaism. Maybe you should get back on the Mayflower…

Comment by Bolinat on 6/25/08 at 11:17 am

I am wearing one of their boy briefs as we speak. And they are pretty hot…

Well theirs you’re vested interest. For some guys, The dimensions(or lack there of)in the lower abdominal region can be a full time obsession. Anything that will enhance the overall effect without requiring surgery must be valuable indeed. No wonder you relate to this rodent and are willing to great lengths to defend him. Even to the point of humiliating yourself by opening your mouth in public, thereby exposing your ignorance, superficiality and vacuousness for our TV audience. Such fealty cannot go unpaid! Maybe Dov will give you a private audience while you model your “boy briefs” for him.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/25/08 at 11:46 am

Going out on a limb here, but I suspect, Bolinat is a woman.

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 6/25/08 at 11:55 am

My apologies. After a cursory investigation at the American Apparel website, I have discovered that “boy briefs” are actually for women. I’m sure you’ll forgive me for that honest error in gender misidentification. I would imagine however that the “hotness” factor would depend upon the dimensions of the “model” wearing them. Alas, much like yopur opinions, beauty is subjective. In light of this discovery, your defense of this lizard is even more disturbing, in a sick, sort of self-flagellant, self-hating, toe-sucking kind of a way.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/25/08 at 12:30 pm

With those briefs I HOPE bolinat is a woman.

Anyway, my question is, if Charney is claimed by the Jewish cultural community as with the LAJJ and Jewlicious, why should that be a one-way street? Forget about horsewhipping, no opinions either? Sorry I wasted my time on a thoughtful response for you. Hey - how about those Lakers?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/25/08 at 6:01 pm

As I recall, SY, I completely demolished your feeble and ineffective attempt at character assasination of Kahane by His Geekness Friedan every which way.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/forums/viewreply/13423/

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/25/08 at 6:09 pm

Though you might’ve been correct about Kahane’s “service”(one shot as an old man in the reserves, isn’t really service. It was more like Gadna for American tourists), due to the fact that his presence caused more problems than it solved, it was a mistake that the gov’t didn’t make again. In as far as Friedmann is concerned, his book, “The False Prophet”, and the scholarship and research that supported it, was well recieved and regarded by those members of the academic and journalistic establishment whose opinions are credible, the whining of a bunch of half-wits, malcontents, and failed-terrorists notwithstanding. Though you made you’re usual half-assed attempt at promoting your opinions as peer-reveiewed fact, though in the absence of anyone else doing so, you congratulated yourself with the usual self-serving approbations( I guess the Lexipro isn’t working), though you promoted yourself and your drivel in a way that would only suggest Assberger Syndrome, in the end you only succeeded in confirming what everybody already knew than and what they know now. You’re a lunatic whose views are not taken seriously by anyone. BTW, convict. Have you signed up yet for that graduate program at Ossning? Nothing gives the seal of approval on 20+ years of deranged, politically motivated babbling like the affirmation of your peers.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/26/08 at 6:42 am

The NYT review on the book, though accusing Mr. Friedman of perpertrating a “hatchett job” on the American Jewish community(as it turns out, a prophetic and spot on indictment 18 years after the fact)had no problem with Friedman’s portrayal of Kahane;

“... What rational person would want to come to the defense of Meir Kahane, the Orthodox rabbi who founded both the violence-prone Jewish Defense League in the United States and the far-right Kach Party in Israel, which calls for the expulsion of all Arabs in language reminiscent of the Nazis?

But, alternatively, who would want to have to defend the unrelenting hatchet job that the investigative reporter Robert I. Friedman has perpetrated against Mr. Kahane - and by extension Israel and Zionism - in ‘'The False Prophet’‘? The problem does not lie with what Mr. Friedman has to say about Mr. Kahane himself. The writer portrays his subject as contemptuous of his fellow Jews, tireless in his pursuit of money and power, an opportunist, a liar, a coward, an adulterer, an F.B.I. informant and a close friend of the mob - and I have no reason to doubt any of it. In fact, Mr. Friedman has constructed a persuasive indictment.“

NYT,  ZIONIST ZEALOT
By ROBERT LEITER; ROBERT LEITER IS A REPORTER AND EDITOR FOR THE WEEKLY JEWISH EXPONENT.
Published: May 13, 1990

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/26/08 at 7:10 am

As far as Rabbi Kahane’s service goes, I he might have been exempt from army service at forty years of age when he immigrated, but he did not, and served in his local community area which was not a Tel Aviv suburb but in a political and ethnic hot spot. He trained, was assigned, punched his ticket and did not complain about it.

Kindly do not play ping-pong with every dime-a-dozen Kahane basher you can find on the web. All we need to debunk the book review of Friedman’s anti-Kahane blast is to invite people to read the actual review including the parts you left out (most of it). Go on, it’s not such a long piece. Here it is
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE4DF133FF930A25756C0A966958260&sec;=&spon;=&pagewanted=1

For the lazy, I will summarize that the book ‘False Prophet’ by Robert Friedman is a shallow, error-ridden, context-free, incessant rant composed of recycled articles by the author, that fails to engage the very real questions and issues Kahane sought to address.

The reviewer only has two problems with the book. First, Friedman gives Kahane too much credit for helping Soviet Jews escape the dictatorship. But the real problem is that the REST of the book is so stupid and unprofessional that it undermines the important job of bashing Kahane. Everything Friedman writes is idiotic, except when it comes to Kahane, Leiter has “no reason to doubt any of it”.

So now we have what they call a POV (point of view or violation of journalistic neutrality) problem with the reviewer. Since I never heard of Robert Leiter, I tried to get a handle on him. He writes for The Jewish Exponent, a Philadelphia paper similar to The Jewish Week, a Federation subsidized paper. Kahane had contempt for the Federation, and the Federation hated Kahane.

The only article of his I really turned up was ANOTHER book review of his for the Times, for a book called ‘'Buried by The Times’ about the New York Times’ role in burying the story of the Holocaust in real time. With a couple of pro-forma disclaimers, he dutifully kisses the Times’ ass and explains that ya gotta understand that things were different then, it wasn’t just the Times . . . good boy Robert. Did I mention that the New York Times also hated Kahane.

To paraphrase Olmert “oh, I am so tired of fighting, of winning . . .“

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/26/08 at 8:38 am

“...and served in his local community area which was not a Tel Aviv suburb but in a political and ethnic hot spot.“

What a joke, . A “political and ethnic hotspot” only made so by his presence and the rest of the emotionally disturbed psychopaths that gathered around him. Well, I have to hand it to him. Faced with the prospect of serving having no useful security function, he created one, albeit short-lived.

“...For the lazy, I will summarize that the book ‘False Prophet’ by Robert Friedman is a shallow, error-ridden, context-free, incessant rant composed of recycled articles by the author, that fails to engage the very real questions and issues Kahane sought to address.“

What would we do without you Vic? You’re like the gift that keeps on giving. Once again equating your opinions with those of people who have actually been peer reviewed and published? Please. You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that though you lend much weight and importance to your pontifical, vain glorious twaddle,  other than like-minded losers and Jewish she-males from Fresh Meadows and Boro Park, nobody else does. I would’ve thought that by this time, youd’ve gained the understanding that everytime you proclaim yourself a “champion” or a “winner”, you only reinforce the already commonly held perception that your tenuous grasp on reality, has become that much more attenuated. As to the qulaity of Mr. Freidman’s Journalism and erudition, I’m sure you’ll pardon the rest of us (who are not emotionally and mentally hobbled ex-convict, ex-JDL losers, with an axe to grind) for lending the credibilty that you irrationally claim for yourself, to such publications as The Columbia Journalism Review;

On his own: Robert Friedman
Columbia Journalism Review,  Sep/Oct 2002 by Polner, Murray

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3613/is_200209/ai_n9111821/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1.

As usual, Vic, a delight as always. I’ll see you in Flushing.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/26/08 at 10:54 am

You know, there’s a rumor that they’re gonna put tolls on the Queensboro Bridge to midtown Manhattan. The guy that owns the rights to the bridge is being edged out and has to get rid of it, he needs money real bad, too, it’s complicated but I can hook you up when you get to Flushing.

Anyway, if you wanted to discredit Robert Friedman you couldn’t have found a better reference. Peer reviewed? Ridiculous. Columbia Journalism Review, the graduate student periodical. Let’s see, a student journalist who formerly worked at a low-budget left-wing rag got a manuscript on notebook paper from a Jew who had studied about Israel in the 70’s, the decade of full-tilt Soviet propagandizing following the Yom Kippur War, attended the American University in beirut just for balance, and miraculously survived opposing right wingers. Good thing he didn’t oppose left-wingers or he’d have been dead like Kahane a lot sooner. He cultivated Kahane on false premises, that he was an innocent journalist but then stabbed him in the back with his childish slanders. His stupid book was rejected by many publishers. Why do think that was? Because they liked Kahane? Because the Zionist Jews control publishing? Or because it was a load of manure. Having read it, that’s what I think. Bad move, you can have even a load of manure about kahane reviewed in the New York Times!

What a great loss that Friedman died so young. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall “Honey? I got this whatchamacallit fatal blood disease . . . y’know, after that sexual slavery investigation I was doing in Bombay . . . of course not! I swear, dammit! I told you a million times all I did was use the toilet in the hotel lobby . . . Yes, alone!

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/26/08 at 4:04 pm

You’re like a gumball machine Vic. Every time I pop in a nickel, another self-serving polemic comes rolling out of your pie hole. Like I said Vic, you’re the gift that keeps on givin’. See ya’ around the neighborhood:-)

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/26/08 at 4:29 pm

If I actually had all of those nickels, you might call it self-serving. Just showing you up as a deluded phony know-nothing blowhard is worth something, but its still a little abstract.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/27/08 at 3:39 am

Ooookay. Now just relax victor, the nurses aide will be along shortly with your lithium. But by all means, as soon as you are actually able to publish one of your screeds, please let us know. By the way, the Sing-Sing alumni newsletter doesn’t count.

Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/27/08 at 5:17 am

You seem to be having trouble with one of your eyes . . . Visine - gets the red out!

Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/28/08 at 3:49 pm

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