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February 9, 2010 9:03 am PST

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	Toyota crashes into N.Y. synagogue steps Russian official: Iran nuclear program testing world’s patience NIF fracas: Defending Israel or destroying democracy? ‘Savior’ of Tel Aviv, Goel Ratzon, accused of enslaving women Clinton: Iran, N. Korea pose gravest threats Report: Yishai moves to legalize Jewish ownership of East Jerusalem building Abbas reportedly agrees to indirect peace talks Costa Rica elects Jewish VP Israel’s high court frees pro-Palestinian activists on bail German Jewry’s top leader to step down

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Most of those comments aren’t anti-semetic at all.  The reason why dealbreaker listed jews as victims is frankly because many of Madoff’s investors were Jewish, along with the fact that obviously he’s going to stroke anti-semitism.  And “LOL Jews” was a comment in reference to the fact that dealbreaker had put JEWS under the list of victims, the others victims all being hedge funds and the like, so the humor is in how it’s out of place, not in any sort of anti-semetical context.
I don’t think it’s neccessary to get overly paranoid here, many of these supposedly anti-semetic posters you’re mentioning are likely Jewish themselves.  The Borat joke for one is clearly a knowing reference to the movie’s parody of anti-semitism.
This leaves only one quote which may genuinely be anti-semetic.  That doesn’t mean that there aren’t forums out there rife with anti-semetic rants, but making dealbreaker sound like it’s rife with anti-semetism is a little absurd-how is listing Jews amongst the victims of Madoff at all incorrect when you guys are writing article after article about how this is going to affect Jews?!?

Comment by tekd on 12/13/08 at 12:29 am

I don’t know what to say, for my own sake I wish he hadn’t turned out to be Jewish… I don’t like to feel a kneejerk feeling about any group of people, but sometimes when stuff keeps piling up it’s hard to regulate the subconscious mind and where it wanders. I am merely being honest here, and to be honest I’m pretty pissed at this crooked piece of s***.

This guy is quite literally the REASON why there is any anti-semitism in the world! THIS man, THIS archetype, he LITERALLY fits every hate-mongering stereotype that neo-nazis ever produced, even down to his PHYSICAL charicteristics: screwing people out of BILLIONS of their hard-earned dollars and fitting every possible stereotypical profile that you would see in a hate-poster in Nazi Germany.

I’m not even beginning to say that all Jewish peoples are corrupt, greedy, stereotypes but….

But it almost seems to me that AMONG corrupt, greedy, lying bankers who screw people out of their money, would it be so ridiculous to think that MAYBE the Jewish community is represented in greater numbers than other groups?? Is this complete and utter neo-nazi rubbish or is there something to this? If there IS something to this, then what is it? Why?

Why is it that there are so many scams and banking “glitches” and all of the heads of the bank seem to be Jewish? (It’s not hard to do the research, these things are public information.)
In the midst of corrupt lending practices and poorly-given loans that happens to be crashing our economy, it’s not hard to place the blame on the banks; and subsequently find out that MANY of the bankers are JUST like this fellow.

Is that completely “anti-semetic and unfair” to suggest? Is it possible that some stereotypes are rooted in truth, and in our post-modern politically correct culture we just don’t want to acknowledge it?

I’m very angry about this.  This man is everything that is wrong with EVERY SINGLE THING IN THIS WORLD! He is the REASON we need all of these security measures, his lying deceit and his GREED! These are people’s lives he has toyed with for his own gain. The individual who wrote this article went well out of his way to stress that Jews, too, were caught up in the scandal. No good enough, especially when the stolen money was donated so freely to Jewish organizations.

The fact that he happens to be Jewish is just a coincidence I believe, but as you said it’s a very unfortunate coincidence, and sometimes it becomes difficult to get around it. My first thought was “Wow, the perpetrator of the worlds LARGEST scam is a Jew, suprise.” I don’t WANT to be an anti-semite but s*** like this just brings out the ignorance in me.

I hope no harm comes to any person through racial hatred throughout the world, but I would be lying if I didn’t tell you that I think this fellow has more blood on his hands than he could ever know himself.

When someone fits the stereotype it raises other-wise unraised eyebrows.

God bless…feel free to flame away. I’ve just shared myself honestly here, and hold nothing against any one individual. It just gets old being a working-class consumer and watching people on wallstreet run around with our money like it’s a big game. People are dying, losing their homes and starving.

Comment by Kyle on 12/13/08 at 5:52 am

When gas was going through the roof, which helped bring on this melt down, there was no anti arab hate, even after 9-11. Jews are exceptional at everything including both the good and the bad. The fact that maldoff is Jewish is no more a reason to think all Jews are crooks, as the fact that Jonas Salk is Jewish is a reason to believe all Jews discover cures for major diseases.
Kyle you are a Jew hater, does that make all gentiles Jew haters ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 1:34 pm

having glanced thru the various comments ... mild in relation to what appears to have happened ... let me say this:  Kyle is not a jew-hater.  I am not a jew-hater & I am as angry as he is.  at 84 yrs of age, brought up in Berlin, I think I am entitled to an opinion.
I don’t look jewish, any more than Paul Newman or Charlton Heston or any of thousands of Hollywood actors do.  that was to my advantage, because the other kids in the park didn’t believe me when I told them I’m jewish & that’s why I have to go to a jewish school.  this is of course right in the midst of the Hitler years.
On my way home from school, I invariably stopped at the Stuermerkasten, a glass display case showing the latest issue of the most outrageously anti-semitic publication.  let me describe one of the images as I recall it, some 70 years later.  at a beachfront, handsome germans exhibiting their firm beautiful bodies while nearby ... lolling in a deckchair, dripping furs & jewelry, a fat ugly jewess ... (love that word don’t they) & her swarthy-lipped husband sneering down at the lowlife around them.  some of the slogans of the time:  the Jew must rape ... the Jew does not know how to laugh out loud, he only sniggers “he-he-he” & so on & so forth.  can you believe that?  I gave it little thought at the time.  one was quite used to it.  other countries were little better, in their attitude towards our race.
in conclusion, let me add that I agree with anyone who says that people like Madoff, or the directors of Lehman bros or Goldman-Sachs do little to ameliorate the negative image, the stereotype handed down for many centuries.  Shame on them!!!

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/13/08 at 2:09 pm

It seems to me that the Jewish faith community should be doing more to encourage adherence to Biblical ethics among their adherents.  It is a demonstrable fact (and facts can be neither semitic nor anti-semitic)that Jews are prominent (in terms of relative influence and percentages of management and work force)in the financial industry so it stands to reason that if they acted more ethically, the risk of and incidence of unethical behavior would likely decrease.  Of course the same would apply to gentiles in the financial industry.  I hope those of good faith in the Jewish community will not allow the shibboleth of “anti-semitism” to avoid the lessons that are to be learned from such wide-spread amoral behavior and outright corruption that is at the heart of our current financial woes.

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/13/08 at 4:57 pm

First of all Let me give you assurance that I am not an Anti-semite. I believe that there are no different races, there is only one race called “Human Race”. I wish every body understand this basic fact. This is my side of the story. But unfortunately most of us had been caught up in “tribal loyalty”. Jews are not exception, rather their “tribal loyalty” runs deeper. Why can’t they learn lesson from their own history of suffering? Put end to your limit-less greed and the hatred will be over, no more Hitlers.

Comment by HumanFirst on 12/13/08 at 7:14 pm

Mr. Heller:
You are a self hating Jew. The gentiles can be Jew haters, that is all too common, but there is something even worse about a self hating Jew.
You mean to say that the gentile auto execs are not as crooked as any other type of executives ? Or maybe the fact that Arafat stole billions from the Palestinians was just abberent non Jewish behavior?
To say that Jews should be better than other people is in and of itself racist. Of course all religious people of any faith should be held to the higher standards religious people represent.
Was the governor of Illinois Jewish, or the mayor of Detroit ? Get a Jewish backbone Mr. Heller and stop being so afraid of being Jewish.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 7:15 pm

Mr. Leaf I believe you are too harsh on Mr. Heller—I don’t think he deserved your criticism from what he said,  and what value is it to cite to other instances of corruption that may or may not involve Jews?  The point is not that ALL such criminals are Jewish but that in those industries and professions where Jews predominate there should, just as for those that are not so dominated, be higher standards of ethical behavior and the respective religious leaders for such people should strive harder to point people in that direction rather than turning a blind eye, especially where it might mean substantial financial support in the guise of charitable giving.  Instead, our culture, both Jewish and otherwise seems to define success solely in terms of how much money one can accumulate without any regard to how it is obtained.

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/13/08 at 7:33 pm

I have always had good friends that were jewish, and I even have a permanant scar on my face from protecting a defenseless jew getting beat up during college.  With that being said, this Wall Street mess is not looking good for jews, and based on recent personal experiences I am starting to have my doubts as well.

The problem I have, is Jews are overly defensive about everything.  They always defend the bad apples of the group, and allow guys like Madoff to bring down the entire community.  In my opinion honest Jews need to come out and say, “we are aware that we have not be represented very well by a lot of corrupt Jews on Wall Street.  We are just as angry as everyone else, we are embarrassed by this behavior, and I hope they throw his a** in jail”.  Blacks have street gangs, southern states have rednecks, and every group has some kind of weakness.  Buy being over defensive and trying to defend a bunch of criminals, Jews are allowing these guys to take down the entire Community.  Jews try to isolate themselves from the rest of society, that is the problem.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/13/08 at 7:38 pm

Hey Southernboy, where did you post anything on the internet about the shame you feel because of your coreligionist Gov of Illinois Blago ? Does he give gentiles a bad name ? Or are you just another lil ole Jew hating hypocrite ?
Science has proven only one fact about Jews: As a group their IQs are remarkably higher than gentiles.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 7:52 pm

If I were a gentile I would be very ashamed of those priests raping little boys. Is that what all gentiles are really like underneath ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 7:58 pm

Mr. Leaf:

I hope you can find some peace and be able to let go of the hatred you apparently have.

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/13/08 at 8:02 pm

I’m not Catholic, but if some of those guys were from my church, I am absolutely humiliated by it.  I hope they put them in the eletric chair.  I hope they do the same to those rednecks in my state, who rape their kids.  This is not something I am insecure about.

Jews do have higher IQ’s, and seem to be very well educated as a group. I know enough Jews, to know most are good people.  My fear is many have used those high IQ’s and done some pretty bad stuff on Wall Street.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/13/08 at 8:23 pm

There are 2 ilks of people here: So called Jews that feel so negative about their jewishness that a “bad jew” shakes their world and causes great hand wringing; and Jew haters that exploit a “bad Jew” for their Jew hating agenda.
Show me where Gov Blago’s behavior, which was far worse, has caused gentiles to feel uncomfortable, or gentile haters to exploit this incident to promote their anti gentile agenda? (Didn’t happen with Charles Keating did it ?)
If you cannot, then I suggest shutting up would be the most honest thing for both groups to do, or maybe those Jews can just convert, so the remaining Jews will be smaller but stronger .

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 8:48 pm

Mr. Leaf,

I really hope your attitude does not represent the average jew in this country.  I really hope those conspiracy theories are not true, and that you guys are not trying to hoard as much money and power for yourselves as possible, in any way possible.  If this is true, and the average American figures this out, you will not be “stronger” when this is over with.  This is why American’s are starting to get very concerned.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/13/08 at 9:52 pm

Is Wall Street Just One Big Ponzi Scheme ?

Madoff told his employees that “It’s all just one big lie”.
It’s amazing that the former chairman of the Nasdaq Stock Market
was arrested and charged with one of the largest fraud schemes
in Wall Street history.

It was a giant $50 Billion Ponzi scheme!

So Where is the Money?

But didn’t the SEC,  wonder why this fund wasn’t audited by a known firm?

You can prevent frauds and scams
just making some background research in his public records.
That’s why I recommend to verify the people before doing any business.

Before any deal, just check at this free information service

<a > ArchiveNational.Com </a>
and don’tlose your money.

Hope that this helps someone!

<a > ArchiveNational.Com </a>

Comment by Security on 12/13/08 at 10:33 pm

“I really hope those conspiracy theories are not true, and that you guys are not trying to hoard as much money and power for yourselves as possible, in any way possible.  If this is true, and the average American figures this out, you will not be “stronger” when this is over with.  This is why American’s are starting to get very concerned.”

What a Jew hating putz you are Southern Boy. Ya its true we Jews conspired by creating a Jew named Jesus to teach fools that could not create their own religion that the meek shall inherit the earth so we can “hoard” all the resources for ourself. Now don’t you feel stupid Southernboy. I really hope all gentiles are not as stupid as you are because if the rest of the Jews find out , then we will be hoarding your assets also. What a Putz you are.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/13/08 at 10:55 pm

You are over defensive, just like all the other jews I know.  If you truly believed that I was a complete idiot and what I wrote made no sense at all, it would not bother you as much as it does.  It would not make you so INSECURE.  Every time someone suggest the possiblity that a conspiracy theory might be true for discussion purposes, you start accusing people of being “jew haters”, “stupid”, “a Putz”.  Based on your reaction, it appears you must think those conspiracy theories contain some truth.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/13/08 at 11:12 pm

Jews are disproportioned in the industry - Jews also make up a disproportionate amount of “non-crook” managers/presidents - though I’m not sure if the “good impact” of the good ones is as bad as the “bad impact” of Madoff, and we just don’t hear about them anyway.

Comment by Shlomo on 12/13/08 at 11:15 pm

Martini- I’m Jewish and I didn’t feel any anti-semitism with Kyle’s or Southernboy’s posts.  If you think it was, you shouldn’t use it anyway.  Saying the word anti-semitism hurts jews just as much as we think it’s protecting us.

Comment by Shlomo on 12/13/08 at 11:35 pm

I was just talking about the conspiracy theories that Jews were aggresively seeking money and power and trying to control the country.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/13/08 at 11:36 pm

I feel sorry for guys, there does seem to be a lot more anti semetism out there with the current financial meltdown. And Madoff couldn’t have confirmed Jewish stereotypes any better, I mean it seems to be the biggest fraud in history! I don’t see how it reflects on Jews as a whole though, but I could see how Jewish americans would feel ashamed and embarressed. My father is a Catholic and a few months his priest was arrested. You’ll never guess what for! He felt really ashamed and embarressed, but people don’t think that Catholics are pedophiles, and rational people don’t think that all priests are pedophiles.

Comment by sean maguire on 12/14/08 at 1:12 am

Hey Southernboy: Inbred Jew hating putzes like you do confirm the conspiracy theory: The conspiracy throughout the ages to murder Jews and steal their property. Jew haters like yourself stole almost one trillion dollars of jewish assets and murdered six million Jews wrongly accused and executed due to crimes they did not commit in the 1930’s and 1940’s alone. Same thing happened in Spain, with equivalent assests being stolen by Jew hating putzes like yourself southernboy. In fact such naked stealing of jewish property and assets by jew hating putzes like yourself has occurred all too frequently. So if we are keeping score, Jew hating putz, conspirators like yourself are all too numerous.
Jew hating putzes like yourself Southern Boy, don’t mind that trillions of dollars of wealth have been shamelessly drained from our economy to the filthy polluting Islamic Terrorist oil producers, including almost 700 billion last year alone. On the other hand, Madoff’s alleged crime, probably did not result in the loss of one penny to the American economy as a whole. We will find out however.
Jew hating putzes like yourself Southernboy, are a necessary reminder of the conspiracy to harm and otherwise treat Jews unfairly, and a reminder of what inbreeding can do. Southernboy, did you know that many of your Nazi co-conspirators were gay ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 6:16 am

the theme under discussion if I read it correctly, is Bernie Madoff gives ammo to anti-Semites everywhere.  unfortunately, the belief that world Jewry controls finances worldwide, is part of the deeply ingrained stereotype.  along with racial pollution, moral inferiority & a other similar qualities.  obviously, any outrageous occurrence is grist to the mill of anti-semitism.  whether in fairness or otherwise is beside the point.  the damage is done & I am very sad to say, it is irreversible.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 6:30 am

Are black people engaged in the same mea culpa over the OJ Simpson conviction, as you are over the allegations concerning Madoff ? This incident changes nothing . The Jew haters and self hating , timid, spineless Jews are still the same Jew haters and self hating spineless Jews after the Madoff allegations as they were before.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 8:27 am

Never said I believed the conspiracy theories, and I honestly never heard of the conspiracy theories before about a week ago.  My grandfather was shot three times in Germany as he helped bring an end to the Holocaust.  Your personal attacks and massive guilt trip are not going to work with me.  The world is not out to get you Mr. Leaf, please remeber that.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/14/08 at 9:19 am

Someone who crtics and expresses justifiable anger towards his own people is not self hating! He is angry at the stereo typical horrors which enflame antisemetic voices.  Madoff is a beast in every sense of the word. His greed beget greed.Because he knows the ins and outs of his own people as on of them, he knows best how to keep himself and them happy…the mighty buck…their God! “Villains fare welll in this world, saints in the next world”, Old Yiddish folk saying (Komove, S, 1985, p.84 I am not a fundmanetalist Christian by any menas, but after this and the debacle that Greenspan allowed and encouraged to happen, Like Jesus in the temple I want to scream at a den of thieves, in the midst of God’s world.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/14/08 at 9:49 am

Southernboy-I appreciate your grandfather’s service.  It is unfortunate that Mr. Leaf continues to avoid actually discussing the issues and instead resorts to ad hominem attacks (that are even more meaningless since they are not even based on actual knowledge about you as a person).  This is the usual tactic of those who cannot debate issues on their merits.  No reasonable and rational person would argue that the apparent crimes of the Nazis, the Illinois Governor or any other “gentile” are any less serious than those committed by someone who happens to be Jewish.  To engage in such “tit for tat” diatribes again avoids discussion of the issues.  Unfortunately our recent presidential election demonstrates how difficult it is to actually discuss issues since we allow ourselves to be distracted by personal attacks on the speakers even when such attacks are facially absurd (e.g., anyone daring to question Mr. Obama’s position on a given issue is immediately labeled a racist or bigot).

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/14/08 at 9:55 am

1) I very much supported Barak O’Bama back in 2004 and have no problem with questions you may have.  Yes of course there is suspicion, which puts us all on guard to some extent.
2) I apologize for the genral staement about Greenspan.
Another time this can be discussed further.  My Great Uncle Christain Pineau was very much involved with the free french movement. I had family like you who were tortured by the Nazis.  Any past horror does not justify any rage as our economy and it seems the integrity of the us is going through a sort of osteoporosis!
  I still stand with my stement and anger about Madoff, and anyone who benefited for a short tiem including christians! A thief is a theif is a thief!

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/14/08 at 10:46 am

thank you Jumpinjarhead, for the way you are laying it on the line.  if the Jews consider themselves the ‘chosen people’ let them prove it!  let them at least set the good example.  you are phrasing it very well:
“It seems to me that the Jewish faith community should be doing more to encourage adherence to Biblical ethics among their adherents.”
and thank you Ms KurzDunn, again I couldn’t have said it better: “Someone who crtics and expresses justifiable anger towards his own people is not self hating! He is angry at the stereo typical horrors which enflame antisemetic voices.”
a word of advice to those who try to win the argument by means of insult & counter-accusation:  you do not use kerosine to put out a fire.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 1:35 pm

The idiot Governor from Illinois is just plain nuts and has not done as much harm as the piece of scum Madoff has for apparently quite a while. So comparing the jerk from Illinois, who hopefully resigns or is disposed shortly is really dumb.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/14/08 at 3:08 pm

per Mr Sean Mcguire’ comment You could have not have said it better. I am looking forward to some Jewish groups actually making a statemtn against blatant thievery and how it goes against G-d’s commandments big time! Heck I am not Roman Catholic, but the pope has no problem criticizing christians and how we are not always behaving as we should.  It will be interesing to see the wagons circling.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/14/08 at 3:19 pm

Alfonse, I suspect you are not Jewish but a skin head. Maybe the Jews that feel they have to be ashamed of Madoff should just keep a low profile and pretend they are not Jewish. Self hating Jews like “Alfonse”, which by the way is as Jewish of a name as a ham sandwhich is kosher, probably has no jewish descendants due to intermarriage and assimilation anyways.
Myself, I am proud of being Jewish, and if the truth be known, Jews as a group are superior both morally and intellectually to every other group. So I, have nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for if there happens to be a Jew that fails intellectually or morally.
I dare anyone to show me statistics and facts to the contrary. I dare anyone.
That being said , all of the posters on here that claim they are Jewish and are so devestated by the Madoff affair, should really convert to something other than Judaism. I suspect most if not all of them are not really Jewish.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 3:32 pm

{satire on}

I’m also waiting for condemnation by the Christian faith community for the ripoff of U.S. citizens, the destruction of the U.S. economy, the damage to the planet’s ecology, the shredding of the Constitution and the tarnishing of the American reputation by admitted Christian George W. Bush and his Christian henchmen Cheney, Rumsfeld, Paulson and Rice.

After all, what they did just feeds the anti-Christian hatred in the Muslim world!

{/satire off}

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/14/08 at 3:53 pm

Martini, you are a real pain do you know that?  not one sensible argument, not a word to contradict the <<Bernie Madoff gives ammo to anti-Semitism>> theme. slinging insults & insinuation will get you nowhere.  my name (which you choose to mis-spell) is German.  most Jews in my time ... I grew up in Nazi Germany, I may have mentioned that ... did their best to be good decent citizens like everyone else.  as they have always done in every country in the world.  sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t ... tell me about it.
against this background, is it any wonder that I should feel anger & dismay at those crooks in our midst who try to throw us back hundreds of years into a time when Jews were accused of everything you can think of ... poisoning wells, sacrificing christian infants ... or if you like, betraying the Vaterland & had it not been for the Jews, Germany would have never lost world war one!
if they lock that guy up & throw away the key, I’ll be the happiest boy on earth.  spoken not as a skinhead, Martini, but as a decent citizen & a loyal Jew.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 4:23 pm

Back to the headline, everything in general and nothing in particular gives ammo to anti-Semites everywhere. Unfortunately for any valid point they might ever make, they have been crying wolf for too long to take seriously. The overwhelming victims of the Madoff scam are Jews and Jewish institutions.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/14/08 at 5:10 pm

Hey Alfonse, your Nazi Germany roots are showing. Here in America, and as we Jews have been doing for centuries, an accused is given a fair trial. Madoff has only been arrested, so far, but you are already willing to “throw away the key”. How did you survive the Holocaust ? Were you a kappo, a Judenrat?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 5:29 pm

Since this thread has broached the issue of Jewish morals, I say Jews are far more moral than gentiles, including Muslims.
Jewish institutions, dating back to ancient Israel, lived by the rule of compassionate law, which even the Kings were subserveint to. Capital punishment was almost never meted out, and punishment was proportional to the crime.
Equality was also promoted by Jewish governments, something lacking even today in virtually every Arab and Islamic country.
Christians were still hanging petty thieves even in the 19th century.
As for individual Jews, surely the Jew haters and self hating Jews can come up with some valid statistics to show Jews are more prone to criminality per capita than other groups ? The truth is that per capita, gentiles, blacks, hispanics and Mulsims have substantially greater felony convictions per capita.
But who is kidding who, Nazis like Kyle and Southernboy hate Jews because of their liberality, their egalitarianism.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 6:03 pm

It is people like Mr. Leaf that scare the hell out of people.  “we will be stronger than ever”, “we have the highest IQ’s”, “jews as a group are superior both morrally and intellectually than any other group”.  I have never read such narcissism and arrogance in my entire life. 

Mr. Heller if you grew up as a Jew in Nazi Germany you have my respect.

Comment by southernboy on 12/14/08 at 6:17 pm

Good point Marti!  you are right, a fair trial, by all means.  then shoot the mofo!  sorry ... how you say?  roots are showing.  careful Alfie or they’ll pin a Hakenkreuz on you if you don’t watch out.
how did I survive?  I didn’t.  got out in time.  that’s why I’m still around to give you a hard time.
take it easy, Mart.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 6:19 pm

thanks southernboy, thanks a lot.  “narcissism and arrogance” I do love it!  good thing we are not all like that & hey, lets keep our sense of humor!  you’ve got to be able to laugh at yourself, we’ve always been good at that.  one of the secrets of survival, incidentally.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 6:34 pm

Sorry to rain on your parade Southernboy, but if you were expecting A jew like Herr Alfonse, I am sorry to disapoint you. Millions of Jews are strong and proud, unlike Herr Alfonse. I can back up my assertions with facts. Can you ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 6:40 pm

Mr. Leaf:

Facts would be a welcome change from polemics and name-calling.  Please inform us of the facts.  Cheers!

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/14/08 at 6:48 pm

The only assertion I ever made was that some jews were over defensive.  I am affraid our definition of stregnth is going to be very different as well.  The people who I believe are strong are guys who have been through hell and back.  Holocaust survivors, War veterans, etc. The strongest people I know, are very humble.

Comment by Southernboy on 12/14/08 at 7:28 pm

Total Jewish population - 2.2%
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Jewish prison population 1.77%

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

That means Jews are under represented by 20%. Muslims over represented by 400%, Catholics over represented by 200%  etc…

As for Jewish intellectual superiority:
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jewish-genius-10855?page=all

What does all this mean ? That self hating Jews, like Herr Heller, and Greenberg or Goldberg that started this blog can go f**k themselves. The Jew haters are excused, this doesn’t concern them.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 8:33 pm

A majority of the individual investors were people of the older Jewish community, so I do feel pretty sad until of course i see that these people put trust and blind faith into this man and this is what they got in return. Word of advice: “if you cant manage your own money, why give it to someone else?”

I feel three things occured for Bernie “Made-off” to get away with this scheme since 1960,

1) Lax oversight in financial sector
2) No transparency and No questions to the fund
3) Blind faith based more on image than on concrete evidence.

If you lost money w/ “made-off” then I really dont feel sorry at all. Other than booh hoo. Sucks to be you. If that aint karma i dont know what is.

Comment by adam on 12/14/08 at 8:38 pm

Once again harking back to the headline, it seems that invoking ‘Jew’ when it is irrelevant creates a cycle of verbal violence. Madoff is a Jew, with Jewish involvements, and primarily Jewish victims. But what he did of interest is not a Jewish action, and does not characterize Jews.

Yet look at two articles (out of dozens but this is borne out). Both Huffington Post, both within a day.

One - says ‘Jew’. “Bernard Madoff and the Jews of Palm Beach” of 12/12, the article under discussion contains the lowlife comments (speaking of lowlife comments).

The other - doesn’t. “Lessons from Bernie” of 12/13 contains neutral and intelligent commentary.

So sometimes it is a matter of finding what you look for, as well as bringing out the worst in people.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/14/08 at 9:25 pm

bottom line…GREED

Comment by aitch46 on 12/14/08 at 10:59 pm

oh…i forgot…GREED and ARROGANCE…typical

Comment by aitch46 on 12/14/08 at 11:01 pm

quoting:
<< What does all this mean ? That self hating Jews, like Herr Heller, and Greenberg or Goldberg that started this blog can go f**k themselves. The Jew haters are excused, this doesn’t concern them.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/14/08 at 8:33 pm >>
******
hey Marty, enough already with the self haters & the jew haters!  this is supposed to be about a certain lowlife who ripped people off & thereby giving antisemitism a bad name!
lets call it a draw, shall we.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/14/08 at 11:18 pm

This is a sensitive subject in so many ways, but folks, please watch your language.

Profanity is unacceptable, and I will delete profane messages as soon as I see them. 

I want to encourage discussion, which is why I allow anonymous/pseudonym postings, but don’t abuse JewishJournal.com’s hospitality.  Thank you in advance for your restraint.

This is an official message.

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/14/08 at 11:36 pm

Boo hoo! Swindlers list is payback for greed all around.
Martini stop your pissing and moaning!

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 5:22 am

Martini:  People who bragg about their group’s intelligence prove how their arrogance usurps their G-D given talents and potential.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 5:29 am

Web Guy:  George w and his crew are a bunch of nuts “fundamentalists” who have skewed their belief in christianity to the point where they believe the end is near, and they wish it to be! They are convinced that they are “saved”, and most likely are not. I am a christian of more moderate belief. Any nut who goes off the deep end of any spectrum of religion whether Jew Christian, Muslim or any other religon are all way too obcessed (SP!?) with their sense of superiority” NUTS!

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 5:36 am

Hey Martini, since when does validly reading the riot act to one of your own, for behavior which supports every stereotype, which the group abhors, make him/her such an awful person? What does Kosher have to do with it?  Lots of Jews do not keep kosher. (statement has nothing to do with the discussion), and your point is?

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 5:45 am

Webb Guy:

If I understand your diatribe of the evil George Bush correctly, if I do not accept your obviously biased view I cannot be a “good” Christian?  That is a very enlightened position and does wonders to contribute to intelligent discourse.

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/15/08 at 5:54 am

In every country they have ever lived in many Jews involved in business have tended to be white-collar criminals.  That is an indisputable fact.

Somewhere between 40-50% of America’s billionaires are ethnic Jews even though they are only 2-3% of the overall population - that makes me wonder how many other Madoffs are lurking amongst these people…

As for this egotistical moron named Martini H. Leaf calling another person here (Southernboy) an “inbred Jew hating putz” you are hardly one talk; Ashkenazi Jews are one of the most inbred ethnic groups in human history - in the Orthodox communities first cousin marriages are still quite common just as they were on the past; and Ashkenazi Jews also have a WHOLE LOT of terrible genetic disorders because of their extensive inbreeding; see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Specific_diseases_and_disorders

They even have Jewish genetic testing services now (like Dor Yeshorim) that test Jewish couples before they have kids just to make sure that their kid(s) will not be born with genetic disorders due to inbreeding.

So Martini H. Leaf, you best keep your mouth shut with the insults about “inbreeding” because Jews are more inbred than just about any other ethnic group on Earth.

Comment by EZRA on 12/15/08 at 6:30 am

Stupidity on a grand scale.
To the “Christian moderate” KurzDunn: Jewish groups owe you nothing and no apologies. Madoff did not represent any religious Jewish group in an official capacity, or commit these acts in the name of Judaism. Thats why Christians do not have to apologize everytime a Christian commits a crime, likewise for black groups when blacks commit a crime. Contrast this with an official of the Catholic Church, a priest , raping a little boy, or Islamic Terrorists murdering in the name of Islam according to their own words. In those cases a response is warranted by those groups so apparently misrepresented.If it satisfies your bloodlust Kurzdunn, Madoff’s JEWISH sons allegedly turned him in.

Ya see that jewish groups assume that people are intelligent enough to understand that Madoff was acting alone and not on behalf of Judaism or in an official religious Jewish capacity if he wasn’t. Obviously they were wrong based on this thread.
Sorry if you are jealous KurzDunn that Jews as a group have superior IQs. That article was written by an Irish Catholic scientist, and was only in response to the Jew bashing on this thread. I maintained then and I maintain now that Jews have nothing to be ashamed of, and more to be proud of than any other people, Madoff notwithstanding.

The Jew haters are just doing what so many, but not all, gentiles have always done, which is hate, murder, and steal Jewish property. Nothing new or notable there. The worst offenders however, are the self hating jews. I highly doubt Herr Heller is an 84 year old Jew, but if he is, then Heller and the author of this blog, Goldberg, or Greenberg whatever, are the true villians here and even worse than Madoff because they relate to and help promote the agenda of the Jew haters, so thay are guilty, while our system requires the presumtion that Madoff is not.

Jews and Judaism are worse off for having the Hellers and Greenbergs. I did not know that the Jewish Journal was really a typical looney left, self hating, naive kumbaya publication. It is a waste of time to engage here because , as the Yiddish saying goes: When a wise person is arguing with a fool, two fools are arguing.

If we Jews are to be berated as a group, I would say in America our misguided sense of “Justice for all”, and “looking out for the little guy”, is our only groupwise flaw, and will be our undoing. Those misguided attempts at fairness are why Jews are so predominatly Democrat and Liberal and support every liberal cause, and why the Jew haters hate us even more, if that were possible.
In the end however jewish liberalism will backfire against Jews. Watch what happens to Jews and Israel under Barack Hussein Obama: Very very big changes, anti Israel pressure,  and pro Arab support big time. But in the end, we Jews will only be stronger. Just like after the Holocaust.
The reason is that Jewish survival is all about what we Jews do and has little or nothing to do with the rest of the world. Jews have the power, including a vast aresenal of nuclear weapons, and the support of G-D, among other resources, to control their own destiny, we just don’t realize it. Perhaps only our enemies appreciate our true power. That is why our enemies within, such as the Hellers and the author of this Blog, Goldberg or Greenberg, are the real danger, and not the external enemy, including the jew haters.

The jews could have defeated even the Romans had it not been for the infighting. Man for man, the Roman empire never fought such a tough foe as israel.
The real meaning of hanukah is not the mircale of the lights and the oil lasting eight days. Hanukah is all about the internal jewish struggle that continues to this day, represented by the hellinist jews (Heller and Greenberg) versus the macabian Jews (me). There is no Jewish futire with the hellenist jews.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 6:33 am

Mr Leaf as an example of intelligence as an oxymoron.My guess form my own experience with men in general is that he suffers from “short man syndrome”. These guys have to puff up themselves by grandiose statements,macho behavior, usually very quick bad tempers etc. Their verbiage gives them away and usually gets them in so much trouble.  There is justice in the world. What goes around comes around.
  I do have to admit Madoof could not have chosen a better time to help support his own people.  Hymmmmm…just an observation

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 6:39 am

Dear Ezra:  I do not appreciate the syntax of your rudrness 1) in how you addressed me or presuming I expect personally a polemic of apology, from the Jewish community concerning the Madoff affair.
  on the other hand I cannot help but wonder why so many Jewish people continually remind us they are the chosen people, etc. Bragging about one’s IQ proves otherwise. Greed and excessive wealth are potentially dangerous for all people who attain it! For any group to claim they have more to be proud of than any other again proves otherwise. Madoff as a person shows how an over developed sense of this world is it. There is much truth to the statement that you can have too much or too little money. The example of the Golden Calf in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures is a very grave sin against God. Bragging about having nuclear power, as if it is a reasonable option is quite frightening. I wish it was only you who really believed that.  I believe very much in the same God that you do, and I very much doubt he would support any “christian” or “our” country if they chose to use nuclear weapons now or in the future. Your pompous sense of power is based in human arrogance.  Your interpretation of the miracle of hanukah…wacko!
  Faith without good behavior means nothing.  The Lord requires we “love justice, do kindness and walk humbly with our God” . I am not after bloodlust. We all will be judged when this life ends. For any of us to claim that God loves me better than you or him is just plain dumb. It is totally out of place for you to attack our future president. You are darned right there will be some big change. I just think that it will be aboslutely in an attempt to bring peace, greater balance of power and understanding by all of the world’s people. You sound like an anarchist. its 2008 almost 2009.  Enough already!

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 7:20 am

Oy! Martini, please stop, your giving observant, Orthodox, strict, law adhering, moral Jews a bad name. Stop your nonsense. Madoff is a crook. He deserves to be prosecuted to the highest level. Most of us are good people. Most of any group will not try to harm you. By and large, the world is made up of mostly good people. The minority, which we can call the bad people, scare us. No one wants to invest with a bad person. No one wants to find themselves in an alley with a bad person.

Imagine you are in the West Bank in Israel. It’s late at night, and you’re alone. You might be more scared if you saw a member of one ethnic group than another walking behind you. Does it make you racist? No. It makes you vigilant.

Everyone has been scammed before. Usually not for most of their money, but you lent money to a scoundrel, or someone lied to you. There are people we would trust more than others. Too many things have gone wrong with the economy. Maybe we should stop trusting Wallstreet, maybe hedge funds.
I am a strictly Orthodox Jew, but seeing the fact that even members of my faith can be corrupt, I would be hesitant to give them large sums of money too.
Bernie Madoff is giving us a bad name. What we need to do as a people is demonstrate within our respective communities that we are good for our word, we are trustworthy, moral, honest people. When we can do that, the Madoff’s will be irrelevant to anti-semitism. As individuals, we can only focus on ourselves. If every individual makes himself a better person, the world will be a better place.

I love Jews. I serve the Jewish community. I am a graduate of Yeshiva University, which lost anywhere from 50-200 million dollars to this Shmuck.

Let’s not be naive, most people are good. The abd ones come in all shapes and sizes and religions.

Comment by Rabbi in Buffalo on 12/15/08 at 7:28 am

Thank you Rabbi. End of discussion.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 7:33 am

How the US survived the kingdom of George W Bush will always amaze me! As president’s go he has done more to destroy our nation, world peace, and economic stability than any other president. This is a whole other discussion.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 7:41 am

Ms. KurzDunn:

While you are entitled to your opinion (I spent 33 years as a Marine to secure your freedom to state it openly), it is just that—your opinion.  I happen to disagree and not on any emotional basis but rather after considerable study and analysis.  Is this a great country or what!

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/15/08 at 10:59 am

Mr Jumpinjarhead.  Thank you for your service.  I also served in the USAR.  My statemnt is not just based on opinion. George W made a mess of our standing in the world, and has overall been an embarassment.  So go ahead start the discussion.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 11:11 am

Rabbi from Buffalo:

You must have been asleep during your rabinical classes. First, have a backbone rabbi. Stop being so afraid of what the Goyem think. Some hate you because you look too Jewish. Do I say you give Jews a bad name because you look like the way nazis portrayed orthodox Jews ?

Jews are not required to obey the laws to please or impress the Goyem. To the contrary, Jews follow the law in spite of the Goyem, because it is commanded of us, and that includes obeying the law of the land we live in. You do not need to defend Jews because of Madoff, because only racists would judge other Jews on the basis of the behavior of an individual that is not acting in any official capacity.
Stop being so afraid rabbi, get a backbone and be proud of being a Jew, you only show your obsequiesness to their imperious attitude.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 11:29 am

Hey Martini: Every time you open your mouth today you show you have no backbone. The rabbi is not concerned about what “the Goyemm” think! He is concerned about the laws based on the noabic laws and the rest of the 613.Picking and choosing the laws and commandment you wish to honor as a friend one said is not like going to a Baptist banquet buffet, where you pick and choose. ( just an example based on different branches, types of Baptists) If we follow what you just said what about Madoff and his sleazy scheme? Also if you donot wish to be adressed or referred to in derogatory terms please abstain from calling or describing non-jewish people as “Goyim”. If you choose to use it with your own people
that is your business. While there is not a direct trranslation, I do know that this term is almost as bad as that N word. The Rabbi is proud of his faith and his learning and is trying to adhere to it. You seem to believe that as long as you are Jewish, you are always a victim, always right and superior. None of us can claim that.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 12:13 pm

As to mostly Jews suffering from Madoff’s mess, I am sorry for the small investors, but wonder about the general greed in many of thsoe who invested along with Madoff. There were many red flags as to this fund.  Hopefully unethical funds like this come to the surface in a better way. Dishonesty and greed is like a serpent. Payback is a bitch. Sometimes to them that has gets.

Comment by Jacqueline S Kurz-Dunn on 12/15/08 at 12:22 pm

Mr. Leaf, you sound like a very hate-filled almost militant-type.

I’m sorry that you feel the need to validate your individual existence by attaching yourself to a group.
You’re the racist, sir. Garbage in, garbage out. If you insist upon demeaning everyone but your racial group, you’re not going to get anything better out of the mix than what you’ve thrown in.

You’re so far beyond being “proud” of your Jewishness, you’re hostile to the “inferior sub-races.”
That is not what it means to be a Jew.

The fact that you identify SO strongly with a percieved racial group (i.e. Genetics, how we’re put together) makes YOU a racist just as much as someone that you’re attacking.

Comment by Kyle on 12/15/08 at 12:37 pm

KurzDunn, shouldn’t you be shopping for gifts in honor of that Jew you worship, along with the 12 other saintly Jews ? What do you buy all those little men in your life for xmas ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 12:47 pm

jewish intellectual superiority is a fact. Facts are not racist. You can critique it for yourself:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jewish-genius-10855?page=all

Jewish moral superiority is also a fact:

Total Jewish population - 2.2%
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Jewish prison population 1.77%

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

That means Jews are under represented by 20%. Muslims over represented by 400%, Catholics over represented by 200%  etc…

I guess everyone on this thread is afraid to argue facts, but thats what happens when facts are not on your side.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 12:55 pm

Marty Marty Marty ... now you are really acting silly!

<< The worst offenders however, are the self hating jews. I highly doubt Herr Heller is an 84 year old Jew…>>

now why on earth would I be making that up?  I’m in full agreement with the orthodox Rabbi from Buffalo - although myself neither orthodox nor particularly observant - when he says that this ...

<< Bernie Madoff is giving us a bad name. >>

I mean to say ... of course he is!  which makes what he’s been up to, worse!!!

but why argue?  you’re running right out of ammo yourself:

<< KurzDunn, shouldn’t you be shopping for gifts in honor of that Jew you worship, along with the 12 other saintly Jews ? What do you buy all those little men in your life for xmas ? >>

what a dumb-cluck post that was!  Marty-Marty, I’m getting worried about you.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/15/08 at 1:27 pm

Ms. KurzDunn:

As you rightly said discussion of the Bush presidency is beyond the scope of this thread but I would close by saying again that your conclusory statements are by their very nature opinion and repeating them over and over does not make them fact. 

Cheers!

Comment by Jumpinjarhead on 12/15/08 at 2:21 pm

Herr Heller:

What a frightened timid little old Jew you are. You say shame on the directors of goldman sachs and madoff and Lehman brothers for doing nothing to ameliorate the negative image of Jews handed down from the centuries. I say shame on you for not having the backbone to condemn those that judge innocent people on the basis of what others do. I say shame on you for not having the guts and the backbone to defend the innocent people you claim to be a part of. I say shame on you for not pointing out the real criminals here: The Jew haters and looking at yourself in the mirror, the self hating Jews.
Can you tell me what crime Madoff has been convicted of ? Or true to your Nazi values, do you convict without the benefit of a trial ? 84 years old, you can’t do too much more harm.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 3:02 pm

Marty-boy, you are repeating yourself, you’ve said all this before.  I’m old, but not silly enough to argue ad infinitum.  but ok, Madoff is a good-good-good guy until proven otherwise.  does that make you happy?  it wouldn’t if you happened to be at the wrong end of one of Maddo’s cunning little schemes.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/15/08 at 3:19 pm

Herr Heller:

How many copies of Der Sturmer do you own, or did you buy when you passed by that glass window ?

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 3:20 pm

quote: “but ok, Madoff is a good-good-good guy until proven otherwise.  does that make you happy?  it wouldn’t if you happened to be at the wrong end of one of Maddo’s cunning little schemes.”

Yes, but then I would not be condeming all Jews, I would be blaming one individual, unlike you and your self hating and Jew hating ilk. Just like I condemn Gov Blago, and not all gentiles for his alleged crimes.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 3:25 pm

Hello Martini: I worship God the Father as Christ instructed. So talk about Jew hating…You hate Christ because he pointed out definite wrongdoings by Jews in his time and presenting more justice seeking view as to one’s adherance and honor to the law! What a SOB your obviously to spew out crap like you do! I do not worship the saints idiot!  I am a protestant!  and befor you even goe there I do not support the horrid things that Luther wrote as to treatment of the Jews, along with his thesis he left at Wurtemburg to try to clean up the Roman Catholic church. As far as little men go you are one of the many.  You did not answer my prior questions or statemens with anything that is worth answering.  So how do you define littel men?  You seem to be the perfect definition!

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 3:57 pm

son, I condemn no one.  but I would invite you to return to the heading of this thread & offer one valid contradiction.  its not about self-hating Jew-hating ilk ... whatever you are implying ... its about the harm one man can do.  and I don’t mean finance-wise.

“... ammo to anti-Semites everywhere”, in case you have forgotten.  if you think you (we if you prefer) can shout or bluster our way out of that, then I feel sorry for your lack of historical understanding.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/15/08 at 4:01 pm

What the heck is this neurotic feare of self-hating jews? Please define what a self-hating jew is?  My guess is that it has something to do with the beginning of the Christian era. Please do inform.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 4:05 pm

Fine jumpinjarhead: If you need to feel you won any discussion as to George W, gor right ahead. You are correct that restating something does not make it truth.
However, I never said I could not argue as to this point.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/15/08 at 4:15 pm

Ok so now you are claiming “Jews are of superior intelligence”  You must be that one outlier. Spewing out statements liekthis sound horribly like that ugly German guy and his cronnies. Hitler ring a bell?

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/15/08 at 4:27 pm

Observation: The Tetosterone flying in these diatribes is rather amusing, especially of Martini Leaf.

Comment by Jacquline kurz-Dunn on 12/15/08 at 4:36 pm

the quotation by Zionist ... evidently out of context ... is totally unfair.  Gordon was a dedicated zionist in the truest sense of the word.  dedicated that is, to the creation of a Jewish homeland.  around the time, if memory serves me, when Theodor Herzl pursued the same ideal.  needless to say, neither of them lived to see the fulfillment of their dream, but without their contribution, it might have never been achieved.

taken on its own, the quotation by Zionist gives a false impression.  Einstein, Freud, Marx, Madame Curie & of course Jesus are just a few of the Jews who literally changed the world, nor should one overlook the expansion of human wisdom by philosophers from Maimonides (12th century) onwards.  not attempting to stress Jewish superiority in any shape or form, on the contrary ... major contribution in the face of hardship & prejudice.  no more, no less. 

a note to Marty:  ammo, that’s short for ammunition.  give some to Hamas or Hezbollah & see what they’ll do with it.  likewise when some slime comes along & provides ammo of a different but no less virulent kind ... getting tired, you work it out for yourself!

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/15/08 at 5:51 pm

Martini wants to bask in the reputation of “intellectually superior” Jews; but let one of them only get caught up in fraud and scandal like this. All of a sudden he’s distancing himself.

Comment by jon on 12/15/08 at 5:57 pm

Herr Heller:

I guess the whole point of the Holocaust was lost on you. To you the message is; Shosh still, be a good little boy, try not to be noticed by the Goyem”. Thats sad. What you should have learned is to hold your head high, to be strong, and to realize that you are to be judges based only on your own actions, but your Jewishness is an absolute badge of honor and pride. Instead you cower and grovel and beg for the affection of those that will only hate you more for such groveling.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/15/08 at 7:43 pm

As a Christian it is pretty obvious to me that most of the smartest people around are Jews. That’s just a fact of life and I have no problem living with that. But don’t forget that the competition in brains with the Jews is not the Westerners so much as the Easterners. The Chinese and the Indians are brilliant ethnic groups. But I honestly think the best things going for the Jews is that they are—no matter what Madoff has done- probably the most moral and sympathetic of people who understand what suffering is all about. I admire brains but I admire more their deep understanding of life.

Comment by reg on 12/15/08 at 10:20 pm

that’s a decent sort of a comment Reg.  I can live with that.  but back to Martin:  I look like someone who cowers & grovels, do I?  its news to me, as also your remark on the “whole point of the Holocaust”.
you know what, Marty?  I know all about the holocaust, quite a number of my family perished.  but I never knew there was a point to it.  I always saw it as a futile exercise in madness.  explain the “point” as you see it, & also in what way Madoff’s achievements relate to it if you would.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/15/08 at 10:51 pm

Thanks reg. I think you have put your finger on a very important piece of the puzzle. Similar to yours are the insights expressed in an article by Dr. Tawfiq Hamid ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawfik_Hamid, http://www.tawfikhamid.com/ ) entitled “When I met with Jews” ( http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/righteous/Tawfik_Hamid/ )

Hamid was an idealistic, thoroughly indoctrinated Islamist terrorist who has escaped that closed ideology and now admires Jews.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/15/08 at 10:53 pm

superior intelligence cannot be directly correlated to goodness.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/16/08 at 4:39 am

Ideally parasites (comment per the comment from the Zionsist) live in symbiotic relationship with its host. If the population of parasite becomes too large it begins to self destruct. I supposed Madoff is a good example of becomming too big in his power and money, became greedy and succesfully destroyed many of his own people. However people do have an active brain and ability to decide on their behavior, versus parasites which merely provide a biological function. Behaving like a parasite is not honoirable in any way for any human being. It is a form of stealing, no matter how you look at it.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/16/08 at 5:16 am

There are a lot of points to the Holocaust. The point as it releates to Madoff is that millions of Jews were convicted and punished, including having their property stolen by the state, their freedom taken away by being imprisoned, and being murdered by the state, for crimes they did not commit.
The Holocaust was a perversion of the most fundamental principal of Justice, which is to judge each accused person individually based on the facts and the merits. Everytime you discuss how a Madoff gives Jews a bad name, and fits nazi (Der Sturmer, Julius Streicher) physical racial stereotypes etc.. you implicitly excuse such outrageous behavior and waste an opportunity to condemn the real criminals: Those that conflate what this one person did, into an accusation against the Jewish people. I have yet to hear you say one word to address that issue.
That makes you a defective human being, and an enemy of the Jewish people, and a self hating Jew.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/16/08 at 5:58 am

I was not referring to the Holocaust, or Jewish people as a group. I was explaining a basisc biologcy of what a parasite is.  The zionist asscoiated jews with this term. In now way do I agree with or support the horrific things that happened during the holocaust. The sins committed by a person in any situation tends to lead to greater sins.  Unfortunately this leads to corporate sin, that is societal faults abuse etc, as occured in the holocaust. Unfortunately manjkind continues this sinful perversion of humanity and justice to this day.
  I do not excuse bad behavior. I surmise based on the number of foundations associated with being Jewish, that Madoff supported and “helped”, that he was proud of his being Jewish, and not ashamed to do so. We all are our brother’s keeper in terms of helping them to be their best by being our best. When any of us break any commandment, we do not only reflect on ourselves, but our family, our friends and any group we align ourselves.  I agree this should not be carried too far, however be mindful that all of us because of our human nature, must be very aware that because G-d gave us the ability to choose, all of us whether Christain, Jew or Muslim or any otehr religion have that ability.  Unfortunately far too many are not God fearing, and feel it is ok to condemn others.  I am sorry if you think that is ok it is not.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/16/08 at 6:21 am

Leaf:

KIKE How does that gab you? A critical mass of your brothern in the Congress and the financial sector manufactured the sub-prime disaster that has devastated regular folk (“goyem” as would call them) not only in America but around the world. You keep blabbing about Blago, are you so naive as not to know that he’s a puppet of the Jewish mafia that runs the union machine in IIlinois? Furthermore, his conduit to the president-elect is through Jewish advisors.  Jewish corruption permeates every level of society from ecstasy and other drug trafficers, pimps and female slavery traders, pornographers, pedofiles, through the banking and financial sectors (where Jews are just as immoral) up to the top echelons of government. You can’t fool all the goyem all the time, even though your ilk is trying its best to do so through their manipulative news and entertainment media.

Comment by Lincoln on 12/16/08 at 6:44 am

Lincoln: Must you stoop down to Feaf’s level by using the term “KIke”.  I is as bad as “Goyem”. The idiot governor from Illinois if he is actually part of a greater organization as their “puppet”, does not take away his choice to be their puppet. He is an ass plain and simple and I hope the jerk is impreached asap.
“G” girl
(actually woman I am 54)

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/16/08 at 7:28 am

Lincoln, better change that name, there are rumours he is one of us, and he certainly loved Jews. But then again, you don’t know about Abraham, do you ?
But Lincoln, if what you are saying is true, then are you saying that we are the master race and you “goyem” as you say, merely slaves ? How do we do that? Are we that powerful ? I like that. Maybe when you worship Adolf you are worshipping the wrong master? Is that why you lost WWII, and the three thousand year reich lasted less than the tiny state of israel, which has the nuclear weapons Nazi Germany could have had but for the fact that without their JEWISH scientists, they did not have the brains to develop nuclear weapons ? ?

I am rubbing statistics in your face that show that Jews are superior intellectually and morally:

Have any statistcs besides your unproven allegations that show that Jews are more prone to crime than Gentiles ? Bring on the facts or go back to your nazi dances and marches.
In the meantime, I keep seeing images of gentile priests raping little boys.  Oh, I forgot, you hate Catholics also.

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jewish-genius-10855?page=all

Average Jewish IQ is 2 standard deviations above non Jewish IQ and is much more disproportionate among geniuses.

A gooten Seig Heil to you.

Comment by Martini H. Leaf on 12/16/08 at 7:38 am

Excuse me men…the important part of the discussion here is not one’s abilities based on an IQ test.  It is what one does with them. Martini you are a vicious and very ill-mannered homo sapien! Us “goyem’ are definitely not your slaves, but any group who touts its superiority over another is just as bad as the nazi’s were when they started. How do you know Linciln might be African-american, and not necessarily a white supermacist. Spouting off with your diatribes doe snot serve you well.

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/16/08 at 8:01 am

Jacqueline ... listen to me, because that one won’t!  you are perfectly right & your heart is in the right place, but never will you convince him.  it seems to me that his arrogant bluster conceals a deeprooted weakness ... he knows as well as anyone that there has been great harm done, read Lincoln’s post if you don’t believe me ... arguing & bickering will solve nothing. 

already, very few are participating in this discussion.  lets just you & I drop out & see who he ends up screaming abuse against!  I can almost visualize his reply ... I’m a disgrace to his superiority, compared to me Himmler was a boyscout, Hitler a choirboy ... come on, why should I write his lines for him?  let him have the last word, he’ll get not another response out of me.  what you say, you try it too Jacqueline.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/16/08 at 10:56 am

Martini Leaf - Jews commit as many crimes as other groups, it just isn’t reported as much…see:

- http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/

- http://www.chaptzem.blogspot.com/

There is currently a massive wave of child molestations/rapes sweeping the Ultra Orthodox community which rivals the recent Catholic wave yet we hear hardly anything about it in the mainstream media.  But the information is out there.

Comment by Obvious on 12/17/08 at 4:05 am

People of great minds (intellect), produce great crimes especially when they become so trusting in their own self-righteosness,they develop this grandiose aura of hiding behind piety. When justice truly comes, these persons will be in their proper place. any form of supposed piety, with opposite behavior is an abomination to the Lord, repeatedly in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/17/08 at 5:31 am

G-Girl:

I would have qualms about using the N word, because it is an invention of white racists. But Kike is word coined by Jews themselves—Western European Jews looking down their snouts at Eastern European Jews. They have words for you and me (and Jesus and Mary) that are much more venomous than goyem.

Leaf:

I question your personal IQ since you not only are inept at answering an accusation substantively but are not even good at recrimination. I’m not German, but I’d be proud to be one.  I wouldn’t mind be an assimilated Jew either. It is supremacists like you (and Hitler) who get under my skin. Your ilk is hyper-quick to call people anti-semites and other slurs—knowing all along that the vast majority of Jews are not Semites (or Arabs) but are using the term Semite to refer to themselves as a ploy to hoodwink OTHER non-semites (goyem) into believing that they have some God-given right to return to Palestine, from whence they do NOT hale. That said, I hope you are blogging from Isreal; you’d be a detriment to any other society. Instead of banging out nonsense on your keyboard, why don’t you go bang your head up against that Holy Wall of yours with your Talmudic brothern.

Comment by Lincoln on 12/17/08 at 6:03 am

No matter who came up with it the N or K word are both bad. So you are saying because Jews invented it, the K word is alright. Your condescending attitude ” they have words for yo and me…” I am well aware that there are other words used to describe us. In everyday language Goyem and shiksa are regularly used. I am enjoying a sense of perverse justice in how Madoff made off (good term presented here earlier, borrowed the term), with the Palm Beach set greedy snobs money. Their greed as well as his. So now they will have to put back coats and hats and boots and join the rest of us up north and get back to work. If I hear one more person piss and moan about the cold and wanting to go to Florida, I think I will puke all over them. Sure who does not enjoy a week away in the sun and fun during winter.  Without a solid winter, spring and summer are somehow not as sweet.

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/17/08 at 7:20 am

the jews that i know from working in a state and federally funded workplace engaged in tribal behavior that allowed them to dominate others financially and politically…the result was a very violent environment complete with sexual assaults, physical assaults, psychological abuse and illegal workplace discrimination in violation of federal law…any one who opposed them was destroyed…now they have contributed to the destruction of the country and of their “own people”...enforce your jewish laws and take responsibility…let us know when you want to join the rest of the country by not preying on your own countrymen…...

Comment by shawna murray md on 12/17/08 at 9:21 am

Please let me first say…finally another woman in this discussion. No wonder Judaism follows the mothers line.
My husband is Jewish and a goo man. Just a regular guy.  unfortuantely his sister fits the stereotype and pulls her superiority upon him regularly and often. His boss is half Jewish/half Italian.  Being half Italian of less than honorable Italians, here we go again. Fortunately I am a mixed salad of French, Irish and English-American and do not look Italian. Any people who feel so superior are bound to self destruct. I do not feel superior, except knowing I am not because I know I am not inferior either.  I am so glad I returned to being an active moderate Christian after a few years of joing the wanderers.  I am saddened about madoff, but a littel part of me is not really suprised

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/17/08 at 1:23 pm

all these crazy comments about how jews are bad or, conversely, how the goyim are idiots are missing some facts. One should consider, when one reads about another jew like Maddow or the war-mongering behind-the-scenes “neo-cons”, the difference between being “clever” and being “wise”. Yes, certain greedy jews “are smart” but it is more a cleverness, not wisdom. It is “smarts” that doesn’t benefit society but only themselves. They seem to not understand true wisdom, right&wrong;, etc. They are simply clever and why, usually, they finally get caught out in their schemes. There are other jews, like goys, who COULD scheme, back-stab, and meddle but understand these actions are contrary to peace, charity, and morality. Instead they make actual contributions to science, art, business,&society;. It is a shame that, until caught, the clever jew is the most often praised. There are bad in every “group” but certain historical reasons of discrimination and holocausts make jews defend each other until its impossible to ignore (like with Maddoff)

Comment by Al on 12/17/08 at 1:51 pm

Thank you al.  You are a wise man!

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/17/08 at 2:00 pm

I’m not anti-semitic, nor am I in any way against people based on race, religion or anything else. I just think the facts stand - the jews run the world, they steal for a living, they control the media and eat gentile children for Passover - and they’ll keep it up IF WE LET THEM! No jews should be allowed any positions of standing in society. They should not be allowed even to vote. And Israel shouldn’t exist. Then there will be peace. Oh, and slavery was also the fault of the jews. It’s also their fault that this winter is turning out so cold. They control the weather, you know. They need it to be a bitter winter, where no one can get to work. That way they can throw off the economy - with help from the homosexuals - and like I said, they’ll keep it up IF WE LET THEM! And as I said, I’m not anti-semitic and I’m sick of jews using anti-semitism as a cover. They’re paranoid! I think THAT’S why people hate them! Because no one can say anything against them without being called anti-semitic! Don’t I have free speech?????? Maybe they should learn from the past so they don’t bring on another Hitler - or many of Hitler wannabees!”

Note: This was SARCASM

Comment by Going mad on 12/17/08 at 10:36 pm

Dear Going Mad:
  You almost scared me. I do agree with you. Whenever any critique is raised, you get anti-semitism thrown at your face. The more the Madoff case develops, I do hope he and his cronies are severely punished. I wonder what type of excuses people will come up with this one.

Comment by Jacqueline S Kurz-Dunn on 12/18/08 at 5:26 am

<< Maybe they should learn from the past so they don’t bring on another Hitler… >>

I’d be careful, my sarcastic friend, of evoking the ghost of that monster.  what has happened & what we are discussing here, the effect of one man’s actions ... Madoff acting as a trigger, Hitler I’ll get to in a minute ... is incalculable, it is beyond the imagination of anyone who was not actually around as I was ... a bright but unaware 12 year old ... then.

you’ve got to remember that the young mind can be moulded, manipulated if you like, with the greatest of ease ... go to any rock concert if you don’t believe me.  indoctrinate people early enough & they’ll swallow anything. 

Hitler was a product of his time, he came along when the Germans were deeply affected by the loss of WWI & in the midst of a depression ... notice any similarity there?  stick around long enough & you will.

he promised the Germans a lot of things ... plenty of work for everyone etc ... but he needed a scapegoat.
that scapegoat was the Eternal Jew ... his propaganda machine - Goebbels who was every bit as good an orator as Hitler was, Streicher who ran the Jew-baiting press - between them they looked after that side of it.  blaming the Jews for everything that had ever gone wrong & indoctrination from a tender age.

its a little like when a three or four year old - at the sight of a Christ nailed to the cross, in church or elsewhere - asks “Mummy, who did that to the nice man?”  what is the answer?  “shush baby, it was the Jews!”

yes I know what you will argue:  it wasn’t the Jews, they didn’t crucify, it must have been the Romans ... but we are not concerned with logic or historical fact, significance lies in the unalterable human perception.

what am I getting at, you may well be wondering ... think about it: are we not heading into a depression as bad or worse than the one that served as a starting-block for Adolf ... & will not the starving masses need a scapegoat?

Bernie Madoff has done his ruthless best to provide just that.  no, not by himself alone ... when the time comes the entire Jewish race will be made to take the blame.  thanks Bernie ... the money is neither here nor there, what’s a few hundred billion among friends ... but at this early stage you cannot imagine the extent of the collateral damage you will have caused.

I can.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 9:24 am

So far Bernard Madoff has only been charged with one count of fraud. That has not stopped a lynch mob mentality from already convicting Madoff of stealing and losing fifty billion dollars, and screaming for Madoff’s head. Of course the Jew haters have used this incident to further their Jew hating agenda. Nothing new there. Sadly, self hating Jews are emphasizing Madoff’s religion as a key part of the story , and there have been many Blogs, articles, and comments on Blogs that have erroneously asserted that Madoff is Orthodox.

Many of these state that Madoff confirms the worst Jewish stereotypes, including Madoff’s physical appearance. The main Stream Media has also unfairly emphasized the fact that Madoff is Jewish. However, I have not read any articles or watched any interviews that have emphasized that in the American Legal System, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The media has conflated hearsay and wild rumor into incontrovertible facts and evidence, down to the dollar amount stolen. Jewish authorities and officials, such as ordained Orthodox Rabbis, should be especially emphatic about emphasizing this cautionary fact, since the Jewish People were the first to implement many of the modern aspects of due process in a criminal proceeding over two thousand years ago, and of course Jewish Law still requires it. Such ancient required safeguards included the requirement of competent and credible witnesses, and credible evidence. So far, the public has only seen the unproven charges.

To understand the Jew hating behind the above emphasis on Madoff’s Jewishness, contrast the fact that religion has not been an issue with the recent Illinois Governor “Blago” scandal. Has the media mentioned Blago’s religion, and how it reflects on Christianity ? Has the media inquired into whether Blago is “ultra Christian”, or just plain Christian? Has an inquiry been made or an emphasis placed on OJ’s religion, and how his conviction pertains to his religion? How about for Ken Lay, Jeff Skilling of Enron, and Charles Keating.

Of course not.

Madoff is not a Jewish religious official, or authority, so he represents only himself. Catholic priests accused and convicted of raping young boys were, on the other hand, officials of the Catholic Church, so the Church justifiably had to answer for their actions.

One reporter in particular illustrates the dangerous consequences of recklessly playing up Madoff’s Jewish background, apparently because of his own apparent Jew hatred. Brad Greenberg by his own admission is “not a Jew by choice”, and “lacks a Jewish Education”. Apparently he is a self professed “G-D fearing Christian” and a regular church goer. Incredulously, he writes a “religion” Blog called the God Blog, for the Jewish Journal of Los Angeles. As the scandal first broke, Greenberg obsessively pandered to the most vile Jew haters with reckless headlines like “Bernard Madoff - The End Of The Jews”, and quoted a “macher” that said “Madoff will kill more Jews than Hitler”. Greenberg falsely reported that Madoff was Orthodox,and quoted a “Rabbi” that falsely stated that one can follow the Jewish laws yet still be a thief, which of course is a lie since Jewish law mandates the strictest of ethics, especially in business. Naturally such incitement resulted in an avalanche of Jew hating comments, which Greenberg apparently feigned surprise at, calling them “soft anti-semitism” whatever that means. To his credit, Greenberg tried to recently balance the significance of Madoff’s religion, but the damage was done.

Of course Jews as a group are different, as are most ethnic communities. The facts and statistics show that as a group Jews score two standard deviations higher on IQ tests, which is substantial, compared to non Jews, and higher than any other group. As a group Jews tend to be more liberal in politics and their personal lives than non Jews. Per capita Jews give more to charities of all kinds, than non-Jews. Again, as a group, Jews are under-represented in Federal Prisons by 20%. There are similar positive statistics on Jewish education, income and Nobel prizes (up to 30% of all Nobel prizes, but only 1% of the World population). These differences notwithstanding, any given individual of any group is of course unique.

The Jewish Community has a golden opportunity to use this misguided glaring spotlight on Madoff and his Jewishness, to show that the Jewish community will do the counter intuitive thing, the right thing: Instead of throwing Madoff under the bus, the Jewish community must visibly insure that Madoff receives a fair unbiased trial; The Jewish community must visibly provide any religious and spiritual support and guidance Madoff needs, including spiritual and religious rehabilitation. This should be done in spite of the fact that many Jewish institutions are his alleged victims. Our collective Jewish history is piled high with the bodies of Jews that have been unfairly punished by the State because they were Jewish. Now that the Jewish Community is in a spotlight it did not ask for, it must unequivocally show the world that as a group, it will never stray from its mandated Justice and compassion, however painful.

Anything less would be playing into the hands of the Jew haters and the self hating Jews.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 10:53 am

Herr Heller:
I take strong exception with your description of Jew hating. Older Germans enthusiastically joined Hitler and willingly participated in his murder of Jews and theft of Jewish property. So Hitler did not merely mold young minds, he tapped into something pre-existing.
Your attempts to rationalize Jew hating misses the most important point about Jew hating: It is metaphysical, which is to say beyond our present understanding. If Jew hating were solely caused by any of your listed factors, such as economic factors, then why was Hitler and his top Nazi Officials willing to divert otherwise needed economic resources to murder Jews ? Why were these same people willing to thereby lose the war just to murder Jews ?  Why was the war started just to murder Jews ? If Jew hatred were caused by rational factors, the Jew haters would act rationally. For example, they would temporarily set aside such Jew hating obsessions if it threatened their self survival. 
People use the term evil, even if they are not religious. But the concept of an “evil person”, implies there is such a thing as evil, because sometimes there is no better way, no scientific way to describe it. 
Perhaps the best way to feel such Jew hating as a focused evil irrational force is to watch the Movie No Country For Old Men. The villian is singularly focused in purpose, displays metaphysical properties, and cannot be detered from his evil goal. That is the essence of real Jew hating, although in that movie the villian’s task was to reclaim drug money, as opposed to murdering Jews. Nevertheless, the Cohens had this concept in mind, the concept of Amalek, the prototypical Jew hater, when they wrote the screenplay, and there are symbols and references of that throughout the movie.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 11:45 am

Martini, what’s happened to you?  why the change of tone ... no personal insults, no sarcastic Sieg Heil’s ... were it not for the last line (..Jew haters and the self hating Jews) I would not have believed it was you that wrote it.

let me try & explain this to you:  in a war, a lot of civilians get killed.  you cannot bring them back to life.  that is called collateral damage & you cannot undo it.  no more than you can undo the damage done by what has happened here.  I didn’t write the heading of this thread & it would have never occurred to me to open a discussion of this delicate topic.

I give you credit for sincerity, but this is not about you or me.  the destructive genie is out of the bottle & no amount of righteous indignation will put him back in.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 12:02 pm

Mr. Heller:
True but we Jews need our fellow Jews to stand together as a family. If Madoff is guilty, the sytem will punish him more than the punishment he is already experiencing. And then of course G-D will punish him more if warranted. In the meantime, he is merely accused, and is entitled to what every accused in this country is: The presumption of innocence.

We must challenge every negative statement about Jews in general, which as this board has demonstrated, is all too common, and all too false. Madoff has provided us with a golden opportunity to do so.
If we are truly non-materialistic, then we are a people of principles, immutable principles. Those include insuring compassionate Justice no matter how unpopular, and to look beyond money and monetary crimes, in order to promote human rights and dignity, including for an accused.
Believe me, and I speak as an expert, when the facts come out, you won’t even recognize this case.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 12:29 pm

<< Older Germans enthusiastically joined Hitler and willingly participated in his murder of Jews and theft of Jewish property. So Hitler did not merely mold young minds, he tapped into something pre-existing. >>

that is correct Martini, but not quite!  the 10 or 12 years olds when Hitler came to power, were fully-grown hitler-youth or SA/SS & raring to go by the time Krystallnacht (november 38) came around.  virtually a whole new generation, moulded & indoctrinated from the word go!

that there was a “tapping into something pre-existing”, no use denying that.  but that exists worldwide & recent events - proven or otherwise - can only make it worse.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 12:30 pm

I spoke to my husband over the phone at luch as I do often and hsi friend only siad “Bernie Madoff has done a great deal of harm to the Jewish People”.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/18/08 at 12:35 pm

Enough already!!!  Whiel we must all learn from sins of the past, this does nto excuse sins we amke today! I will never in any way try to absolve the harm.ain and destruction that Christians posed on many innocent peopke who were Jews Or Moslem for that matter.) Beyond this I refuse to not express my anger, at someone who took advantage of his tated faith and following, thereby collecting toehr Jews and takind them for a ride. He preyed on a huge group of proud people. Unfortuantely he helped to overemphasize the proud part.
They all end up now with nothing. Unfortuantely this particular big case shows how believing in your own group, is foolish no matter who you are. The ultimate commandment is “Thou shall trust in god above all others” I do not rember where I learned thsi or when, but whenever I have to amek a major decision I say to myself, God help me”.  I have had many striggles in life, and I am sure many more, but I have faith in God and His steadfast love to lead me through this.  So if I use my experience, my intelligence and better judgement, along with the leap of faith, I ma assured in the long term of my life that things will end up ok.Perfect, perhaps not, but ok is good enough.

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/18/08 at 12:49 pm

Let me ask you something Mr. Heller. Does the non Jewish world have anything at all to do with Jewish “National” self determination? I say they do not. The Jewish People absolutley control their own destiny today, and vitually the only people that believe this are the Jew haters.
If we Jews so decide, there will be no second Holocaust. If we Jews so decide, there will be no Iranian nukes, or Palestinian state. During this time of Hanukah we must remember the real meaning of Hanukah: The Hellenistic Jews, who favored logic , egalitarianism, multiculturalism etc..(think Brad Greenberg and the Jewish Journal), versus the Macabian Jews (Jewish Mission, uniqueness, importance of religios beliefs). I know I said this before, but that battle is still going on, as this board demonstrates. Had the Jews not been still fighting among themselves centuries later, they would have defeated the Romans, according to the Romans (Josephius, the Roman/Jewish Historian). That is why you yourself hold the key Mr. Heller. You can demand justice for Madoff, even if that means conviction and incarceration, but you and other Jews must never join the screaming Gentile lynch mob.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 12:55 pm

What strikes me as this thread develops is that Bernie Madoff is a wonderful example of a self-hating Jew. He somehow got caught up in the idea that because this life might in fact be our only lfie and grab what you can get. In his pursuit of “This worldliness” he hurt many innocent people, not only directly but by the fact that he esteemed himself as a prominet Jew (memberships, assciations etc) Any perosn who attaches themselves to an organization as a Chairman or board memeber attaches an important repetuation, along with their name).  Madoff apparently committed thievery on so many levels, there is no way for him to really serve justice in this life.  My only hope is that he is held up as a major example of egotism, greed, sueriority right up there with Adolph Hitler! Killing people’s spirit’s is up there with killing their bodie’s

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/18/08 at 1:08 pm

It is Ironic that Madoff has provided Jews with the best evidence that Jews are the most charitable and thereby least materialistic and selfish people in the world. Has anyone else noticed that madoff was managing over a billion dollars in charitable Jewish assets ?
As you do the right thing for the Jewish people Mr. Heller, keep that in mind.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 1:10 pm

Hello “kike” why don’t you ever challenge anythign I say o rchose to answer it? Nevermind… Charity which grows out of ill begottne greed is not charity at all.
You a re a schmuck!

Comment by jacquelien kurz-dunn on 12/18/08 at 1:17 pm

Hello the drunk “Martini”  If the jewish people are soself determined why dot hey depend onb so much of US support year after year, after year?  Yeah without money from the USA I would love to see you survive>

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/18/08 at 1:25 pm

easy there Jacqueline!  we are all being very polite to each other, even if our views are at times diametrically opposed.

in answer to your question ... one thing is certain, the Jews would survive & they will.  what is happening now, will turn out to have been a very serious setback & where your husband’s friend said “Bernie Madoff has done a great deal of harm to the Jewish People” he’s spot-on.

but we’ll survive ... we always do.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 1:55 pm

Mr heller: I would hope this is not posed as a threat, but as a bastion of faith and hope in the goodness of jew throughtout the world. I only hope that my belife in christianity is the same. May we both stive to accomplish wa s best we can in this world.

Comment by Jacqueline KurzDunn on 12/18/08 at 2:27 pm

that’s very well put Jacqueline:  “Bastion of faith & hope” ... I can live with that!

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 2:47 pm

One thing the above comments show clearly is the widespread confusion in non-Jewish minds like mine betwen Jews, Israelis, and Zionists.  Israelis include non-Jews of course, which complicates things further.
I do feel that the Jewish community cannot protest at the fact that Madoff is seen mainly as a Jew -  Jewishness is rammed down our throats by the film industry and other media.  Why, often, is it necessary to add in the resumé of a film such lines as “the story of a young Jewish teacher in…” when the film shows that the fact that he/she is Jewish is irrelevant?  One cannot fly the Jewish flag on one occasion and then try to hide it when things go wrong.  And unfortunately, maybe thanks to Shakespeare and his “Shylock”, the popular mind here in England is of the Jewish money-lender, sly and grabbing.

Comment by david chown on 12/18/08 at 10:25 pm

Factoid: 99% of Jews are Zionists, and support the State of Israel.  We prayed for Israel’s rebirth for millennia, and our prayer was heard in 1948.

Judea Pearl—father of slain journalist Danny Pearl—notes in the current issue of The Journal that the actual UN vote securing our national rights was 61 years ago last month.

Some of us—on the Left and on the Right—may disagree with the policies of the current Israeli government, but that is irrelevant to our support of the people and the country.

Judaism includes Zionism.

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/18/08 at 10:42 pm

Mr. Chown:

You asked a question. Tha answer is circumspect, all around you. Have you noticed the comments? The danger and harm that is manifest is that people wrongly assume that all Jews are like Madoff. That is wrong and unfair, but happens all too often. You noticed it yourself from Shakespeare. I know I am not a money lender, grubby or otherwise.

To show just how irrational Jew hating is, how did the British feeel about the Lords ? Seems to me they “grubbed” a lot of money off the backs of the average working George. But the absent Jew, now he was the object of a lot of scorn, and derision for his greed. How can you explain that? It all came to me when I listened to “Victoria” by the Kinks.
The Jews justifiably, do not trust that Gentiles will draw the right conclusions from the way the Madoff affair is being portrayed. Its why the Judge excludes otherwise relevant evidence that is more prejudicial than probative.

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/18/08 at 11:01 pm

Fact: justifiably or not ... fact: prejudicially or not ... fact: undeniably, the Madoff case following closely on the heels of Lehman bros & Goldman-Sachs will cause/ is already causing enormous harm to the Jewish cause.  like it or not, the ripple effect will set us back 100 years.  sad but true.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/18/08 at 11:59 pm

Mr. Heller,

OK, I see your point. My sarcastic comment was only meant to point out the complete, illogical rationale of so many people who are indeed anti-semitic, are doing everything they can to bring back the past, and then refuse to admit that they’re anti-semitic - and then call the Jews paranoid. And you are right. Society always needs a scapegoat. Unfortunately, the Jews aren’t the only ones. Even more unfortunately, soon they will be the most acknowledged ones. We are indeed heading into a time of great trouble. Little by little the past is coming back. When you have people out there who accuse Jews of everything from creating the holocaust, to enabling slavery, to taking the world to complete destruction, we have a problem. When they then take it farther and claim that we bring the hatred on ourselves because we call people anti-semitic, the very people who tell these lies about us, well - we have a bigger problem. They tout their freedom of speech to justify the lies they tell. And yet, should we speak up to claim that lies have been told about us, well, I guess WE don’t have the freedom of speech to do that. But I do apologize. I suppose I shouldn’t be putting anything out there that can give already irrational people even more irrational ideas.

Comment by GoingMad on 12/19/08 at 1:17 am

HumanFirst:

“Why can’t they learn lesson from their own history of suffering? Put end to your limit-less greed and the hatred will be over, no more Hitlers.”

No, you’re not anti-semitic, you just blamed the holocaust on the greed of the jews. Not anti-semitic at all. lol This goes much deeper than race/religion. It happens in every walk of life. A woman is raped, and they blame her. “Why was she out, at 9 in the morning, walking her children to school?” they say. No one wants to take responsibility for horrors that were committed by their own, recent or ancestors, or even to think that such horrid things could have taken place against innocent people - especially when those atrocities were coming from people who claimed to love God. So they blame the victim - or another group - the easy target. They did in the past, and it excuses them. Once you decide that someone “deserves” such a thing, then you can condone doing absolutely anything to them, however inhumane. And later, when another generation decides that such things were indeed horrible, instead of learning from history, they find an escape clause - Oh yes, they do admit it was horrible, but they blame someone else’s ancestors, or maybe even the very people it happened to. Lies, deception, the faulty defense mechanisms that allow people to deceive themselves and others - this is the cause of every act of cruelty ever known, because whenever someone wants to do something that, to most, would seem atrocious, they simply find an excuse, or justification - a lie they convince themselves, and others of. And thus, they can continue on with it. This is done for their own “greedy” purposes.

So, in response to your (absolutely non anti-semitic)post *lol* I say this.

If the Jews went completely poor, held no positions in any banks, and worked as slave laborers, they would still be blamed for the corruption in society. Why? Maybe for not being “productive enough.” lol Because no matter what they do, blame will come. The Jews in society get blamed for every disaster that happens. Not only do they have to fear living among people who make poor choices, they then have to fear that, when those poor choices create havoc, it is THEY who will take the blame. So eventually they get their own state, far away from their false accusers. And what happens? They’re blamed for every atrocity that takes place in society. lol If the Jews were sent off to antarctica, 100% removed from every other culture, they would still take the blame for every crime, stupid decision and atorcious actions committed in other cultures. Everyone needs a scapegoat. In fact, I think people should be thanking the Jews. If it weren’t for them, who would society blame for all its ills? Ah, they’d just find another group.

What Madoff did was deplorable. He deserves much hell for this. But then, it’s not the fault, or “greed” of all Jews. Just as the holocaust, slavery, the witch trials, child molesting pastors and con artist televangelists are not the fault of all white Christians.

Comment by GoingMad on 12/19/08 at 1:57 am

a reply to GoingMad ... my last short comment did not deal with what’s right or wrong ... it was all about what Is & what Isn’t.  The Harm Is Done ... that is a FACT & not you or Martini or myself or anyone else can undo it.  not at this stage anyway.  and its not about the money ... I think I’ve mentioned that before.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/19/08 at 4:03 am

Mr. Keller,

My last post was not directed at you. It was in response to something said by “HumanFirst,” who brought up the whole “greed” issue. My comment to you is just above that one, addressed to, “Mr. Keller.”   

I already said I agree with you. Unfortunately, it’s true. And it’s quite frightening.

Comment by GoingMad on 12/19/08 at 4:24 am

Mr. Heller, that is.

Comment by GoingMad on 12/19/08 at 4:28 am

“This will set the Jews back 100 years”. Not a chance in the world. The murder of six million Jews would never have happened if there was a State of Israel. Having a country with nuclear weapons significantly changes the probability of another Holocaust. Even if America were to decide to cut off the Military aide to Israel, Israel would hardly notice (It is 2% of Israel’s GDP, and a similar amount is provided to Egypt). America does not provide economic aide to Israel. 

The greatest threat to Jews and the greatest harm the Madoff affair has caused is comming from Jews themselves. I just wrote a blog about it, and used the Jewish Journal as a basis. http://madoffblog.blogspot.com

Comment by Martini "Kike" Leaf on 12/19/08 at 6:11 am

Oh my! I supposed what best can be said about this whole blog on an awful man (madoff), and his influence, does show that one person can make a big difference in the world. The Talmud says that saving one life is like saving all of humanity, (or something close to that).Does this mean that destroying a life (even figuratively) is like killing all of humanity?  Thanksfully most people do the right thing. I certainly hope that all of us having this discussion, prayerfully to go and do some kindness beyond the usual, the next couple of days, and ask God to bless it. We all need to ask God for forgiveness for our own transgressions. If you hurt someone, go and apologize and do what you can to rectify it. As Chanukah begins, and Christmas come together let’s all remember the reasons for the season. The common thing we do celebrate is the miracle of God’s power and love for humanity. In both of these incidences God showed his deep abiding love for all people.  The oil burned for 8 days. I don’t think it was a huge horrid fire, but a small bright light of promise. God came down to earth as Christians believe as a helpless little infant. Certainly, as a christian I believe that Chris was born to die for our sins).I beleive though that more importantly he tried to teach us by direct example, to seek justice, do justice and always remember who are ultimate parent is.  I think God knows what he was and is doing.  We cannot know all until we meet our maker beyond this earthly world.
  I remember an Epsiscopalean priest making a wonderful observation. “If the pope and some high and might Jew approached God in the next life, might God ask before we get started, are there any questions? It wouldn’t be a suprise if one of them asked is this your first or your second coming? Might God answer…Does it really matter now?
  The basic fact is that we have ten Noabic commandments, shared in common and if you look into the other religons quite similar. Madoff broke so many of the commandments in his scheme including( putting money before God, dishonoring his own name (same name as his parents), he stole repeatedly and repeatedly). Unfortuantely in his associations, appearing to be so philanthropic, he very much supported and exemplifies the worst stereotypes of Jews. I am glad that President elect Barak Obama is going to work hard to clean up the SEC and strengthen regulations.  God Bless us everyone

Comment by Jacqueline S Kurz-Dunn on 12/19/08 at 6:45 am

Of course, in Britain we blame not the Jews but the Romans for our current crisis.  If Hadrian had built his wall ten times higher and thicker, that dreadful, morose, incompetent Scottish buffoon Gordon “Broon” might never have come south to England.

Comment by david chown on 12/20/08 at 5:36 am

if you’re going to close this thread on an insanity note, why not consider this ... everywhere in the civilized world (by definiton places where you don’t stone women to death) people are now sending out Xmas cards with Merry Xmas on them.  but in the USA it’s Happy Holidays! ... the idea is not to offend certain valued minorities.  not the Jews ... they couldn’t care less & anyway, X’mas is good for business.  we’ve got Chanukah, the Chinese celebrate their New Year when it suits them, & so forth.  must be the guys who throw you in jail if you bring a Bible into their country, they worry about.  no wonder they can’t win their wars any more.  worrying about the enemy’s feelings, what next!

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/22/08 at 5:11 am

Mr Leaf,
I think you miss a point in Charles Murray’s thesis as to the cause of the superiority of Jewish IQ (and Charles misses the fact the the non-verbal IQ scores for Jewish Americans are acutally a bit below average at around 91, and not ‘about average’, the significantly higher verbal scores bring the composite IQ up, but that’s really of academic ‘racial’ and cultural interest and not of ‘rascist’ interest, if you can understand the difference. Non-verbal IQ is one that is thought to be the less suseptible to nuture etc.). Anyway, the point you miss is this: the main non-nurture, non-cultural, related theories for the reasons for higher overall scores in IQ amongst Jewish people are ones of ‘selection’ - either natural or man made, including cultural in the case of the latter. This means that any group of people, e.g. a family or echelon of society that have selceted mates for intelligence or have had more loss of non-intelligent mates through adversity of any kind causing a selecting-in of higher intelligence will have higher intelligence within that family grouping or that echelon of society. Let me spell this out for you: the average intelligence of ‘upper middle class’ people in, for instance, European societies is similar to the Jewish profile. But because the Christian RELIGIONS and CULTURE are a)somewhat more inclusive (e.g actively seek converts) and b) have not had the sort of non-cultural events leading to major selection of higher intelligence the overall Chriatian or European IQ scores are lower. I know first hand of a group of a mixed Christian background where high intelligence within the social group and within families has, for generations, been highly valued. This has led to selection of spouses with high intelligence In turn this has led to average IQ scores within that group being very high (and such groups are very easy to find amongst the middle and upper middle classes). My point here is simply to say that I recognise that the reason for this high IQ within this group is that selection has occured and not because most are Christian or a few are Catholic or another one or two are Quaker or what have you. It is not because of something inherently superior about being Christian or because the upper middle classes are superior - I would be a snob and an elitist if I did think like that… Beginning to get my drift? Chritianity has spread to the masses and to all layers of society, masses that have survived, in a way that in Judaism simply hasn’t happened (unless you include the Sephardi and other non-Ashkenazi who you know are left out of Charles’ calculation that leads to the higher IQ score). You need to stand back from this and recognise that Jewish people do not have higher IQs because of something mystical or superior about being Jewish - they have higher IQs because the group to which they belong has selected-in intelligence and the less intelligent have fallen or been excluded for one reason or another - not deliberately or at least not consciously but through cultural values and circumstance and adversity. It has been a kind of semi-natural, non-conscious, genetic engineering. If we were all to think that it is desireable to do this deliberately then MENSA would have to start it’s own religion and breed out those with low or average IQs. And groups of people with IQs over 140 would have to exclude the ‘mensans’! If you think this would be a good thing then maybe you should join the scientologists!! I’m sure they, like the middle classes, are vastly underrespresented in prison populations! In Judaism this did not happen deliberately or consiously any more than it happens that way in well-heeled and educated families and groups within larger and more diverse religions. It has happened in Ashkenazi Jews on an even more intensive and longer scale than in the non-Jewish middle classes because of smaller numbers and culture and other factors mentioned by Charles M.. It is nothing to be ashamed of but it is nothing to be conceited about either. It is also nothing to be jealous of - it’s just biology. If you are bright you’re bright, if you’re not you’re not. Personally, I believe in including everyone. Respecting everyone. And being grateful and trying not to be conceited about having a high IQ.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/23/08 at 1:10 pm

And BTW - the ENRON people were all Protestants!!

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/23/08 at 1:32 pm

let me just say at the outset that no one who has contributed to this thread - myself included - needs to worry too much about an excessive IQ rating.  at exam-time, its not the jewish kids are tops of the class - not any more anyway - because in that department the asians are taking over.  in finance & politics, that remains to be seen.

but there is another aspect:  a high level of intelligence is not necessarily the main ingredient to success.  there are times when good plain commonsense will will serve you better.  plus a blend of energy, ruthlessness & half a dozen other qualities which I won’t go into in this context. 

merely trying to bring the superior beings in our midst, right down to earth.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/23/08 at 2:54 pm

Thank you Mr Heller - you’re a rock. x

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/23/08 at 3:00 pm

This genetic thing is very complicated and nowhere near as clear cut as some might imagine.

Let me recommend the recently-published book Abraham’s Children, which was recently reviewed here by Senior Editor Adam Wills.

I might also add that while Ashkenazi Jews were unknowingly selecting for intelligence, they were also selecting for breast cancer, ovarian cancer and Tay-Sachs Disease.

Comment by The Web Guy on 12/23/08 at 3:07 pm

Yes, the genetics of it are complicated, it’s an area of interest viz work for me, but I think the point I was trying to make was more along the lines of how genetics interacts with human culture and history and nurture(the latter leading to the ‘endophenotype’) to produce selection that isn’t the straightforward natural selection process in the wild - of survival of the fitest in the wild. Many other groups have ended up close breeding and having high rates of genetic diseases, but the storage diseases, like Tay-Sachs, do tend to occur in the most closely bred groups. But not all these groups select culturally or nurture for the same things either. Anyway, it’s interesting that Bernie Madoff has led to this sort of discussion!

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/23/08 at 3:27 pm

To the best of my knowledge the tribe of Reuben had a kingdom in or below the Republic of Georgia in Eastern Europe, not in northern France. But if you think you are of the Israelites, get in touch with http://www.shavei.org and see what you can work out. By the way, were your people in the Resistance in the war or did you hand the tribe of Judah over to the Nazis?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/25/08 at 8:27 am

Bob, I like it!  the parable about the dog, isn’t that worth thinking about.  unfortunately, never has more hatred & violence been stirred up worldwide than there is now.  do you really believe that a little bit of love & kindness here & there can solve the problems of oppression, mass murder & starvation engulfing the human race at this very moment?

Bob, your approach to the Christ thing is a worthy one.  you are not ramming Him down people’s throats ... in a jewish context that would be counter productive, far too many Jews have been exterminated in the name of the christian religion, the spanish inquisition, the east european pogroms come to mind ... but His teachings, His love of children, sinners, persecuted women, yes undeniably His message embodies everything human beings should strive for in themselves.  and there is more:  the balm to the spirit knowing that He is there with you, that He suffers with you when in the throes of a horrible disease, suffering torture or dying on the battlefield, who else provides that consolation?

who else, I repeat.

myself being Jewish & proud of my forbears who withstood persecution to maintain the faith, & filled with contempt for those who in the name of whatever evil drives them, spread misery upon their fellow beings, of their own tribe more often than not.  be they terrorists, dictators, or common crooks & thieves.

but thank you Bob, I need them both but I shall try not to feed one dog too much at a time.  Hope you are enjoying a Happy Christmas.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/25/08 at 1:45 pm

The emotional side of the human brain is more
powerful than the rational side.  It takes
energy to not stereotype whenever there is an
opportunity.  When I heard about a jewish guy
associated with greed and deception, I immediately
connected the theme with the jewish stereotype. 
I’m aware I did that.

Comment by Shlomo on 12/25/08 at 11:40 pm

messers heller and bob,
  while you are both correct that there is only one humanity (if i have got the gist) there are different groups within that humanity. i posted a comment directed specifically at mr leaf (including the comment about conceit) and his misuse of the science behind one of the ways in which these sub-groupings occur. while i agree with bob and mr heller about our commonalities and the ethics and spirit of life that you propose, i think that you leave the floor wide open to bigots by avoiding dealing with the facts of our differences. the arguments of mr leaf are easily debunked head-on and don’t need to be ignored. the genies are out of the bottle, see charles murray etc, and there are too many people using the facts to support their own racist idealogies. you don’t help by pretending none of those facts exist, it makes it seem like you are afraid of them, instead of pointing out that the further you look into our divergences the closer you come to convergence. and, mr plonie, my background is irrelevant in this context, no one needs to justify themselves on the grounds of ancestry to have a say on something that affects us all.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/26/08 at 5:48 am

i am black and a convert to islam. i appreciate the contributions and sacrifices of jews to the civil rights movement.

when i heard about the story and how many of the victims were jewish, i wanted to know if madoff was jewish. when i found out that he was, i was like ‘wow’, how could he do this to his own people?

i want to add something here. it bothers me. whenever a muslim does something bad (anywhere in the world), his religion is highlighted. he is called an islamists, an islamic terrorists, etc. so it is ironic that a similar thing has happened to jews. i think in both cases the media is being unfair. why should a person’s religion be highlighted when they do something that is obviously against the faith they claim to practice?

so i do sympathize with jews that are downright annoyed that the media is highlighting their religion because of what madoff (a deviant of judaism) did.

Finally, can someone explain what anti-semetic means? Does it mean denegrating jews? If so, then why not use anti-jewish? Thanks.

That is my 2 cents.

sean

Comment by sean on 12/26/08 at 6:53 am

sean,
  i’d imagine that madoff targeted ‘his own people’ because that was who he had most access to - just like any other ordinary criminal up to no good he didn’t go out of his way to find targets. i don’t see how he is a ‘deviant of judaism’ - he’s just a crook. when people do things spuriously in the name of religion they get labelled, inappropriately in my view, according to their religion - that is what happens with ‘islamists’ who say they are acting on their islamic beliefs. the media could manage this better, if they wanted to, by not using the terrorists own self-labelling of islamic when it is clear that they are not representative of islam at all. but madoff has not even labelled himself as a crook in the name of judaism, so it is a bit more scary that people are latching on to his jewishness so vigourously.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/26/08 at 7:26 am

I would like to respond to Heller and joplinmet67.

First of all thank you for your responses. I want you to know that I respect both of your opinions VERY much.
To Heller I would like to say that YES I do think that thoughts can change the world. In fact, if you think about it everything ever done in the history of the world whether it was good or evil started out as a thought. However, I am not naive, and I do not think that one person having positive thoughts of love is going to end all wars. But if we ALL started to reflect on God and His love we would start to see major changes.

To joplinmet67:

Again thank you for your comments. I want you to know that I do not ignore (nor am I afraid) of bigots and their racist ideologies. I simply choose to not focus on them. I know they exist but I choose to focus on our similarities as humans rather than our differences. The more you think about and spend energy thinking of the bigot’s of this world the more energy and life you give them. Mother Theresa once said she would never go to a an anti-war rally but would always go to a Pro-Peace rally. She understood that going to an anti-war rally gave power and energy to war but going to a Pro-Peace rally gave energy and power to peace.

Comment by Bob on 12/26/08 at 10:43 am

Bob, your comments are worthy of admiration.  your sentiments will not change the world, but if everyone was like you, the world would be a better place.

but now for a practical consideration.  people just naturally tend to throw everyone in the same pot, you can’t alter or prevent that.  Muslims blow up a crowded marketplace, gives Islam a bad name.  a Jew commits a heinous act, bang what did I tell you?  they’re no darn good, the lot of them!  have I got that right so far, or is there some spiritual cloud that can prevent & obliterate these irrational reactions?

now here’s the test:  they say that for every bad egg among a community, there are thousands of good ones.  good citizens, honest traders, a credit to their faith.

ok then, where are they all, those wonderful people?  why do that not scream out their condemnation of the acts committed ... in the name of their religion or by one of their co-religionists?  it is up to them to declare to the world that such a person is a blight on their faith & should be unceremoniously kicked out.  barred from ever again setting foot inside a mosque or synagogue, whichever the case might be.

in the case of Muslim acts of violence, I would guess that there is actually some tacit approval.  not widespread perhaps, but some.  others might say:  this is not good for us, but are we going to do anything about it?  better not, let us not interfere! 

on the Jewish side, it is a little more complicated. mainly because the culprit targeted his own people, the act of pillorizing might seem like some kind of selfish revenge.  nonetheless, it is imperative for the leaders of the Jewish community to declare openly & to the world, their shame & outrage at what has happened.  more so since there were many others beside BM, directing vast corporations, paying themselves outrageous bonuses, equally guilty of offending against their professed beliefs & adding fuel to the stereotype of the heartless Jewish financier.  not an easy image to eradicate, let me tell you. 

it won’t go away by itself, you will not sweep it under the carpet.  we, the Jews don’t hesitate to accuse when an act of injustice or violence is committed against us.

on this occasion, open disapproval & condemnation is called for.  an all-encompassing mea culpa to clear the air.  nothing less will serve our cause.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/26/08 at 12:13 pm

Rabbi: Kick Madoff out of the Jewish people

http://blogs.jta.org/philanthropy/article/2008/12/26/1001830/rabbi-kick-madoff-out-of-the-jewish-people

This is the best way to take ammunition
AWAY from anti-semities. It will also have
a deterrent effect on future would-be Madoffs.

Comment by Shlomo on 12/26/08 at 7:58 pm

can you excommunicate thieves? the catholic pope considered excommunicating ETA at start of this century, i don’t know what happened there but they also considered excommunicating the IRA in the 80s and never did it. ETA & IRA were murdering wholesale, not just stealing. individual clerics, the pope, and congregation came out against the terrorists but didn’t kick them out of the church. is it really the business of the jewish rabbis to excommunicate a man because he has stolen - just to distance themselves from a stereotype? i’m not religious but i think it would make a bit of a joke of all that religion is supposed to be.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/27/08 at 5:25 am

and thanks bob, i think your spirituality just gives you a different way of seeing things. i can only speak from a non-believers point of view.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 12/27/08 at 5:46 am

To Bob ... where you say “YES I do think thoughts can change the world” ... is it not possible that over the last few thousand years, there have been far too many thoughts already?  tumbling over one another, pushing each other out of the way?  it put me in mind of a book I wrote in 2000 where I foresee not only a worse millenium than any preceding, but where G_d having tried everything else, finally decides that enough is enough & proceeds to destroy the lot.  and then many years later ...

And out of the slimy miasma
out of a dark uneasy swamp
small creatures ventured forth
blind shapeless
defenceless beings
as at the birth of time
when all & everything
each thought each fear
and every mood and every gesture
was to be
a first time

how about that, Bob?  each thought each fear & every mood & every gesture ... Thoughts first & foremost among these abstract concepts that shape the world. perhaps that’s what’s needed ... a start from scratch.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/27/08 at 5:49 pm

To Jo:

Rabbis are in the best position to protect
the Jewish trademark.  Right now, because the
presumption is that Judaism stands for, or is
at least compatible with, financial greed and
deception, in order to protect the Jewish trademark, Rabbis need to send messages that directly rebut the presumption.

Comment by Shlomo on 12/28/08 at 1:40 pm

<< ...in order to protect the Jewish trademark, Rabbis need to send messages that directly rebut the presumption. >>

HOW? to whom & in what shape & form, Shlomo?  individually or as a representative group?

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/28/08 at 5:57 pm

Herman Rosenblat is the latest victim of anti-semitism.  Sure he and Madoff lied, but they do not deserve the treatment they are getting.  It is important that we all pull together, especially in this time of need when our brothers are fighting to take our land back from the Palestinians.

Comment by Moshe on 12/29/08 at 10:33 am

Thanks Heller for your comment.

Again, you choose to focus on all the negativity in the world and the bad thoughts, moods, feelings, etc. And again this is a BIG part of the problem. You give life and energy to all of the negativity in the world. It is a law of nature (God) that whatever you focus on will become reality. You focus on hate and seperation of people and that is what your reality is…it really is very sad.

I have decided to focus on the beauty of the world…my daughter’s eyes, my wife, lakes, rivers, trees, good people who do good things, feelings of love, etc. And guess what? Those are exactly the things I have in my life! Every single day I wake up I consider myself the luckiest guy in the world because I am.

I don’t care if I lost all of my money, my home, my cars, my family, etc.  I still would be the luckiest guy in the world because I know that God loves me so much that he gave me life and gave me a guide to come back to Him. How awesome is that? Yes, I am one lucky son-of-gun!

Life is SO BEAUTIFUL it is so unfortunate that you don’t see it. Beauty is all around you but you don’t see it or you have decided to ignore it and focus on the evil of the world. Or maybe you see it sometimes but the majority of the time you ignore it.

Please read the book “Man’s Search for Meaning” it is written by Victor Frankl and describes his experience as a concentration camp inmate during WWII. He found positive meanings for life in a concentration camp!! How pathetic are we (free people) to be focusing on the ugliness of the world when Victor Frankl found a positive meaning to life when he was in a concentration camp?

To think that God made a mistake and wants to start over is ridiculous in my opinion. It is also a little arrogant to think you know that God made a mistake. Again, all I have to do is look at my daughter and know that God did not make a mistake. The only mistake is the mistake human’s make by being fooled to focus on the evil in the world. Have a little faith in God and be happy.

One last word…if you don’t beleive thoughts can change the world please study the life of Mohandas Gandhi.

Take care I sincerely pray that you see all of the good and beauty in the world. When you do you will NEVER want to go back to focusing on the evil of the world and you will actually be spreading more good and making a real difference.

Comment by Bob on 12/29/08 at 1:35 pm

I have never really read the history of Palestine but decided to do so. I found the below info from a web-site.

If the below information is correct it makes me sick to now know there really was no difference between being a Palestinian and a Jew. Being Palestinian was just an area and there were many religious groups within Palestine living in peace. Again, I am asking if the information below is correct, because if it is I would have to believe that the whole conflict was caused by a very small group of people (the Zionists) who wanted to seperate themselves and divide people into groups. Why do we continue to do this? It happened in Rwanda in the 90’s as well. If the info below is true why did the Zionists feel they had to seperate people or seperate themselves from a peaceful group? Why couldn’t they just live in peace the way they had been? Well, here is the info I copied from the website…if it is wrong please let me know:

For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population – approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish – LIVING IN PEACE.

Zionism
In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.

At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler’s rise to power and Nazi atrocities, combined with Zionist activities to sabotage efforts to place Jewish refugees in western countries, led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

UN Partition Plan
Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of “self-determination of peoples,” in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power divides up other people’s land.

Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

1947-1949 War
While it is widely and correctly reported that the resulting war eventually included five Arab armies, less well known is the fact that throughout this war Zionist forces outnumbered all Arab and Palestinian combatants combined – often by a factor of two to three. Also contrary to popular belief, Arab armies did not invade Israel – virtually all battles were fought on land that was to have been the Palestinian state.

Finally, it is significant to note that Arab armies entered the conflict only after Zionist forces had committed 16 massacres, including the grisly massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, head of one of the Jewish terrorist groups, called this a “splendid act of conquest,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.” Zionist/Israeli forces committed 33 massacres altogether.

By the end of the war, Israel had conquered 78 percent of Palestine; three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees; over 500 towns and villages had been destroyed; and a new map was drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock received a new, Hebrew name, as all vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. For many decades Israel denied the existence of this population, former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once saying: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”
1967 War & USS Liberty
In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 – the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since, according to international law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, these are occupied territories and do not belong to Israel. It also occupied parts of Egypt (since returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation).

Also during the Six-Day War, Israel attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty, killing and injuring over 200 American servicemen. President Lyndon Johnson recalled rescue flights, saying that he did not want to “embarrass an ally.” (In 2004 a high-level commission chaired by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, found this attack to be “an act of war against the United States,” a fact few news media have reported.)

Current Conflict
There are two primary issues at the core of this continuing conflict. First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when it is largely of foreign origin – the original population of what is now Israel was 96 percent Muslim and Christian. Yet, Muslim and Christian refugees are prohibited from returning to their homes in the self-described Jewish state. (And those within Israel are subjected to systematic discrimination.)

Second, Israel’s continued military occupation and confiscation of privately owned land in the West Bank, and control over Gaza, are being resisted by Palestinian inhabitants. It is these occupied territories that, according to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, were going to become a Palestinian state. However, when Israel continued to confiscate land in these areas and to move its citizens onto it, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the “Intifada” (Arabic for “shaking off”) began in the fall of 2000.

U.S. Involvement
Largely due to one-sided special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using our tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure.

Comment by Jason on 12/29/08 at 1:54 pm

If what Jason wrote is true (I too did not know the history of Palestine) how are the Zionists any different than the Nazi’s? They both seem like horrible groups of people who tried to elimintate another group of people and take over land through war. I would really like to know if this is the true history and if it is how can present day Jewish people believe that what their ancestor’s did was right?

I don’t believe in Palestinian terrorst groups like Hamas but now I at least understand where all of their anger comes from if this is a true history of how the conflict started. I also feel that America should not support either group (Jewish or Palestinian). But really when you think about it Jewish and Palestinian are the same people if what Jason wrote is correct. How ridiculous that they are killing each other just because some fraction of group of Jews decided to try and take over. Sounds like how the Nazi’s started out.

Would love to know why we all can’t just live in peace all together with all of our differences. I agree with Bob and wish more people would.

Comment by Stacy on 12/29/08 at 2:21 pm

What happened to Jason’s comments? We all work together in the same office (Bob, Jason, and me…Stacy) and have been discussing this issue all day at work. Bob brought it to our attention this morning and we all (including Jason) have posted comments to this site but for some reason Jason’s comments were taken off. I witnessed him writing and posting his comments and would love to know why they were taken off the site.

Stacy

Comment by Stacy on 12/29/08 at 2:32 pm

Stacy just brought it to my attention that my last blog was taken off the site. All I want to know is whether the below information about the history of the conflict in Israel is true. I found the information on the web and would like to know if the info is true. If it is true I feel that the way the Jews obtained the land was and is awful and don’t understand why they started a war when they were all living in peace. Here is the info I found, please let me know if it is a correct history:

For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population – approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish – living in peace.

Zionism
In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, this group consisted of an extremist minority of the Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.

At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler’s rise to power and Nazi atrocities, combined with Zionist activities to sabotage efforts to place Jewish refugees in western countries, led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

UN Partition Plan
Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of “self-determination of peoples,” in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power divides up other people’s land.

Under considerable Zionist pressure, the UN recommended giving away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state – despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

1947-1949 War
While it is widely and correctly reported that the resulting war eventually included five Arab armies, less well known is the fact that throughout this war Zionist forces outnumbered all Arab and Palestinian combatants combined – often by a factor of two to three. Also contrary to popular belief, Arab armies did not invade Israel – virtually all battles were fought on land that was to have been the Palestinian state.

Finally, it is significant to note that Arab armies entered the conflict only after Zionist forces had committed 16 massacres, including the grisly massacre of over 100 men, women, and children at Deir Yassin. Future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, head of one of the Jewish terrorist groups, called this a “splendid act of conquest,” and stated: “As in Deir Yassin, so everywhere, we will attack and smite the enemy. God, God, Thou has chosen us for conquest.” Zionist/Israeli forces committed 33 massacres altogether.

By the end of the war, Israel had conquered 78 percent of Palestine; three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees; over 500 towns and villages had been destroyed; and a new map was drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock received a new, Hebrew name, as all vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. For many decades Israel denied the existence of this population, former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once saying: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”

1967 Occupation
more maps
1967 War & USS Liberty
In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 – the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since, according to international law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war, these are occupied territories and do not belong to Israel. It also occupied parts of Egypt (since returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation).

Also during the Six-Day War, Israel attacked a US Navy ship, the USS Liberty, killing and injuring over 200 American servicemen. President Lyndon Johnson recalled rescue flights, saying that he did not want to “embarrass an ally.” (In 2004 a high-level commission chaired by Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, found this attack to be “an act of war against the United States,” a fact few news media have reported.)

Current Conflict
There are two primary issues at the core of this continuing conflict. First, there is the inevitably destabilizing effect of trying to maintain an ethnically preferential state, particularly when it is largely of foreign origin – the original population of what is now Israel was 96 percent Muslim and Christian. Yet, Muslim and Christian refugees are prohibited from returning to their homes in the self-described Jewish state. (And those within Israel are subjected to systematic discrimination.)

Second, Israel’s continued military occupation and confiscation of privately owned land in the West Bank, and control over Gaza, are being resisted by Palestinian inhabitants. It is these occupied territories that, according to the Oslo peace accords of 1993, were going to become a Palestinian state. However, when Israel continued to confiscate land in these areas and to move its citizens onto it, the Palestinian population rebelled. (The Barak offer, widely reputed to be generous, was anything but.) This uprising, called the “Intifada” (Arabic for “shaking off”) began in the fall of 2000.

U.S. Involvement
Largely due to one-sided special-interest lobbying, U.S. taxpayers give Israel an average of $7 million per day, and since its creation have given more U.S. funds to Israel than to any other nation. As Americans learn about how Israel is using our tax dollars, many are calling for an end to this expenditure.

Comment by Jason on 12/29/08 at 2:38 pm

No, Jason, it’s not true. Unfortunately the Jews have many enemies and there are a correspondingly large number of propaganda websites. Unless one pursues the truth in good faith and is willing to verify the facts one is likely to be misled as you are. The worst thing about that is that well-meaning people such as yourself and Bob and Stacy who are willing to spend hours and days researching the issue and navigating to Jewish-oriented websites and cutting and pasting and editing large amounts of text and following up on blog threads can be shanghaied by the Jew-haters to perpetuate evil, like the networks of spam-bots that account for so much of the toxic internet traffic these days. Do not feel bad at being used, if this has led you to having your awareness raised. Please help the Jews overcome this evil.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/29/08 at 5:56 pm

Moshe:  are you calling Roseblat a victim?  Madoff a victim?  don’t make me laugh!  the one providing welcome fodder to the holocaust deniers.  the other, grist on the mill of every antisemitic stereotype ... better than Julius Streicher (central to the Nazi propaganda machine) could have ever done.  admit it why don’t you ... these are two Jews we could have very well done without!

Bob:  I know you’re a good guy.  just how much you’ve seen & experienced or thought about, this I don’t know.  where you say ...

<< To think that God made a mistake and wants to start over is ridiculous in my opinion. It is also a little arrogant to think you know that God made a mistake. >>

... you are perfectly right.  but you are wrong to judge my own feelings & opinions, going on a few lines from a lengthy work of fiction.  you are welcome to read & download the entire book on the internet ... email me at < .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) > & I’ll tell you where to find it.

I still think that this is not the best time to be looking at the world thru rose-tinted glasses ... much as you & myself for that matter, may be in a situation of good fortune within it.  not trying to be negative or pessimistic, merely more than ever keeping my eyes wide open ... (posted on day three of the gaza offensive).

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/29/08 at 6:02 pm

To joplinmet67
I could not understand your response to me for a while. My comment which followed yours was actually in response to a Jew-hating comment that was deleted by the moderator before you saw mine. Trust me, it was actually quite witty in context.

To Mr. Heller,
I can’t imagine how a person has reached the age of 78 years and remained so terribly self-conscious as to be obsessed over the actions of another and the anticipated reactions of the world. I personally find myself to be less self-conscious with the passing years. If Jews had to depend on universal goodwill to survive there would be no Jews left long ago. Realize that there are no actions by anyone that will earn the Jews goodwill. Jews can never be clean and dignified and honest and ethical and accomplished enough to prevent Jew-haters from demaning the best of us.

Here is what I think you and others are missing:

Madoff’s actions are not political or religious. You are acting as if he represents something or somebody or some agenda or some values. Madoff did not consult me or you, and his gains and losses will not benefit me or you. Neither the rabbis nor the Zionists can or should comment meaningfully on this issue, without elevating suspicion of their right or need to do so. You are probably familiar with the stories of the Jews who lines up for the Nazis with the other jews, thinking that their World War I military medals and decorations awarded on behalf of the Fatherland would gain them Nazi respect and protection. It did not happen.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/29/08 at 6:27 pm

P.S. Moshe is not a Jew and he is not named Moshe and his comments are entirely cynical and go over the top just to incite reactions from both Jews and anti-semites. I am sorry you cannot see this as easily as I do; maybe it’s a language problem.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/29/08 at 6:30 pm

quoting:  << Herman Rosenblat is the latest victim of anti-semitism.  Sure he and Madoff lied, but they do not deserve the treatment they are getting.  It is important that we all pull together, especially in this time of need when our brothers are fighting to take our land back from the Palestinians.

Comment by Moshe on 12/29/08 at 10:33 am >>

Ben:  I have gone over Moshe’s comments with a fine tooth comb & cannot for the life of me find anything cynical or over the top in them.  but as you are saying ... maybe it’s a language problem.

P.S. I’m 84 not 78 ... wish I was.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/29/08 at 9:09 pm

yes Bob ... I think I see what you mean.  “fighting to take our land back ...” could have been worded more subtly.  protect maybe, preserve?  the main thing is its our land, on that I hope we do agree.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/30/08 at 12:16 am

Thanks Ben Plonie for your response. My only problem is you did not tell me where the history of Palestine/Israel that I pasted to this blog is false. I am not doubting you, but at the same time you can’t just say it is not true without explaining yourself. For example, is true or false that a small sect of Jewish people called Zionist’s decided to seek out a homeland and decided on present day Israel and started a war to gain a homeland? Again, I really don’t know if that is true or not. Was the area of Palestine really occupied by Muslims, Christains, and Jews living in peace before the Zionists decided to make the land their own? Is it true the U.S. gives Israel $7 million per day? I just would like to know the truth!!

Also, I don’t think the web-site was an anti-Jewish website…it was simply a website that was telling the history of the area known as Palestine. Again, I am completely open to the truth but it seems that is hard to come by…please tell me where that info I received is false and also where I can find the true history.

Thanks!

Thanks

Comment by Jason on 12/30/08 at 7:39 am

I have another question…can a non-Jewish person live in Israel? If so, can a non-Jewish person buy property in Israel? This may be a stupid question to those on this blog but I am slowly trying to learn more about this whole situation since it dominates our news many nights.

Comment by Jason on 12/30/08 at 7:51 am

Correction: “yes Bob I think I see what you mean.” should have been “yes BEN etc” (sorry, I got the names mixed up ... I don’t as a rule). 

you are right Ben, there are some people posting their comments tongue-in-cheek.  perhaps it might be worthwhile explaining to Jason that there is not a country in the world that wasn’t created amidst bloody conquest of one kind or another.  that & the length of time since their inception is not necessarily a criterion for their legitimacy.  most Arab countries for example, did not even exist prior to the 1920’s.  before that, they were part of the Ottoman empire.  would anyone want to argue that this is sufficient reason to restore them to the Turks?

this is not as irrelevant to the topic as it might appear.  much of today’s antisemitism is based on the alleged illegitimacy, our enemies questioning the right of the Jewish state to exist & vowing its destruction.  under such conditions, can one afford to lay down ones arms?

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/30/08 at 9:39 am

Thanks for the comment Heller. I do realize that almost all land today was faught over in a war. I understand your point about the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, if we accept that approach we are encouraging war. It seems like a lame excuse to say, “Well, throughout history their have been wars over land so why shouldn’t we start one.”

If the Zionists came in and threw people out of their homes and tried to rid a region of a specific race so they could have a pure Jewish Motherland please tell me how that is different from what the evil Nazi’s tried to do? Or is it the same?

Also, can anyone answer my question about being able to live in Israel if your a non-Jew. Also, can a non-Jew buy property in Israel?

Comment by Jason on 12/30/08 at 11:08 am

hi Jason.  well at least we agree on the first couple of points.  other than that, Ben Plonie is right ... some posters are commenting merely to stir up controversy.  I am encouraging nothing, not war & not lame excuses.  the comparison between the Jews & the Nazis has been trotted out many times.  if you hate the Jews it’ll work for you.  the Jews have learnt to fight & defend themselves & in the process, have built a nation.  love ‘em or hate them, you will have to come to terms with that.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/30/08 at 12:27 pm

Heller,

I am not in any way looking for a reason to hate the Jews! I am actually getting a little tired of having to say that…I am starting to believe that the Jewish people on thit site are paranoid and think everyone hates Jews. I love and respect ALL people.

However, what I am trying to do and no one on this site seems to be able to do is explain the true history of Israel. Again, did it start with a small group of Zionists who started a war and removed people who were not Jews? Why can’t anyone just answer the questions I have asked throughout this blog?? Please go back and read my previous questions and give me some honest answers. I am trying to learn about the history of the conflict and it seems no one wants to talk about it. Again, is the history that I got from that website and pasted to this blog correct? If not, where is it incorrect and what is the true history? Why is this so hard to answer? If you don’t know the true history then just say that.

Comment by Jason on 12/30/08 at 1:05 pm

Jason, I’m not paranoid, I stick to facts.  unfortunately, history was never my forte.  nor am I into real estate, so that’s another question I can’t answer.
I joined Habonim in Berlin when I was 11.  the leader of our group was 13.  at the important meetings (maybe a couple hundred of us) we sang the Hatikwah, did some horrah dancing, put coins into the blue box & stuck stamps on miniature water towers.  none of the leaders were over 17 or 18 years old.
we were told that if you don’t intend to go to Eretz you shouldn’t even be a member.  I felt guilty about that, because I was among the lucky ones who got away from Nazi Germany, but not to the promised land.  yes I do recall we called it Palestina at the time.  Eretz Israel was still a dream.
had it not been for Israel, many more Jews would have lost their lives.  on the other hand, many more Jews could have been saved had the other countries opened their doors to them.  not the best of alternatives.
so much for my historical expertise.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 12/30/08 at 1:48 pm

As I said, Jason, the sequence of events you have posted on this blog is false. A blog is not the best format to debate these issues, but the general problem with the portrayal you have is in their isolation from context and their assignment of intention to events. I probably have hundreds of online sources you could consult to learn the truth, but one of the very best is http://www.eretzyisroel.com which contains the missing context of the issue.

You will be shocked at the manipulation of the truth that passes for political discussion among the many enemies of Israel. I only the wish the Jews were paranoid on this; unfortunately Jew-hatred is a very real phenomenon.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/30/08 at 9:31 pm

Sorry, make that http://www.eretzyisroel.org/

Comment by Ben Plonie on 12/30/08 at 9:40 pm

My opinion of jews as a group but of course differ individually is that they see conflict as a normal state rather than something you try to avoid.

Comment by carl wooleyhan on 1/08/09 at 5:49 am

In defense of “Jews” in general. (Tehe, any broad term for any group of people is kinda silly to me) They live right next to people who are very hostile to them. Many of them are probably somewhat hostile to the other people.

If that was your dynamic, I’d say you’d know nothing but conflict. Missle here, IED there, etc etc.

Comment by Kyle on 1/08/09 at 7:57 am

I think it is better to wait until Bernie Madoff’s trial is over, he is innocent as far as I’m concerned. Financial markets are full of these kind of players that sometimes bend the rules more or less.

Comment by Rick on 1/09/09 at 10:35 am

You really don’t have to have gone to an Ivy league school to start and wonder about the amazing power the Jews have in America. They account for only 1.5 % of the population and yet pretty much control Hollywood and most of the banks. And I love how anybody and I do mean anybody who’s not Jewish and raises the slightest eye brow about this is branded a throw-back Nazi. Madoff should be in goddamn jail right now.. not some cozy townhouse. I’ve got to tell you; people in this country have had it with this bs.

Comment by Link on 1/15/09 at 5:24 pm

IS VERY PITIFUL AND FUNNY HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT JEWS AND THEIR IQ, LOL IS NOT THEIR IQ I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT JEWS THAT HAVE HIGHER IQ THE PROBLEM WITH KIKES IS THAT THEY DONT HAVE MORALS AND THEY DO ANYTHING FOR THE MONEY,ANYTHING, NO FEELINGS AT ALL CRIMINAL AT SPIRIT AND ALSO THE MONEY IS WHAT JEWS KEEPS TOGETHER KIKES I MEAN KIKES AND I AM GONNA CALL THEM KIKES BECAUSE THEY CALL US GENTILES AND TALMUD SAY EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD BELONGS TO JEWS AND UPON ANY GENTILE BLOOD THEY HAVE TO GET THE GLORY HOW JEWS CAN ACCUSE US ABOUT RACISM WHEN THEIR RELIGIOUS TALMUD BOOK IS ALL RACIST AND CRIMINAL SADIST BASED?JEWS STICK TOGETHER,THEY HIRE ONLY JEWS IN ADMINISTRATIVE POSITIONS OF THEIR COMPANIES YET THEY SCREAM ABOUT MULTICUKLTURALISM BUT THEY SEGREGATE THEMSELF, THEY KNOW THAT STICKING WITH YOUR KIND IS BENEFICIAL SAME AS KOREANS OR JAPANESE DO THEY KNOW THAT WELL BUT THEY WANT OTHERS TO MIX AND DISTRACT, OUR UNION OF THE SAME KIND IS THEIR WEAKNESS, TIME TO TEACH THESE KIKES SOME GOOD LESSON MAYBE THEY WILL START MIXING AND MARRY COLOR PEOPLE WHICH I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY

Comment by striker on 1/27/09 at 7:30 pm

Bernie, Do the world a favor and jump out a window, but make sure It’s a high enough one to get the job done and look to see that no one is in the way.

Comment by Bamboo Harvester on 2/12/09 at 3:58 am

I really wish I hadn’t read any of these comments.
I’m not sure about anyone else, but the hostility here depressed me immensely. It’s no wonder that our world is in the state it is. I’m not pointing fingers at any particular individuals (and in fact, I didn’t even read nearly all the way to the bottom), but I’m of the opinion that people should take a step back and examine a situation rationally before jumping in and attempting to smite everyone in their path.

Comment by Emily on 2/26/09 at 9:08 am

If there’s a surge in antisemitism, it’s about to fade.  Madoff is the first and most sensational in a long line of fraudsters about to face justice.  We already have another guy in Texas, Stanford, who’s being called “mini-Madoff” and I’ve read reports about smaller criminals.  If we’re facing a financial collapse, Madoff, and the antisemitism that came with him, is going to be washed away in the other news.  By and large, the “swindlers on Wall Street” story is not one with a Jewish twist.  Those who insist on seeing this as an anti-Jewish story were antisemitic in the first place.
—-
Mike J.
San Francisco lawyer

Comment by Mike J. on 2/27/09 at 9:49 am

Emily - welcome to our world - you did know you were reading the Jewish Journal, didn’t you?

Mike - you are right on the facts and wrong on the antisemitism. Reasoning about antisemitism is like finding Snoopy in the clouds. Madoff the Jew is iconic, while the Long Island guy (not a Jew) who rooked cops and schoolteachers out of their savings and the Texas guys (not Jews) who stole eight billion rate smaller sensationalism. By the way, that’s a real eight billion, not Madoff’s fake fifty billion which mostly consists of imaginary compounded or pyramided returns. Just using Yeshiva University as an example, they supposedly lost 110 million of their endowment, but their principal ‘investment’ figure was only about 14 million. If that number was extended, Madoff’s total original principal shrinks to six or seven billion. I believe that the fifty billion number was just the total number on the phony books, or even a form of perverse bragging.

We could talk about opportunity costs etc., but the rest of the investment world stinks right now anyway.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/03/09 at 5:00 am

thank you mike j. i made that same point months ago (though i think it was on the FT comments page). take a good look at what has been going on in ireland, and that’s just for tasters - the uk, france etc… there are massive scandals everywhere. jews are greedy. chrstians are greedy. even hindus can be greedy in a bad incarnation and who are those middle eastern islamic horse and oil barons - i am sure they would admit to a little greed. my own family are a bit greedy, watch yourself if you ever meet my little brother - he will buy and sell you. don’t worry you the jews. the few in power that co-relgion with the rest of us lot are just as bad. and i’m a wee bit greedy myself from time to time. people are beginning to realise that it is NOT YOUR FAULT.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/03/09 at 11:45 am

Very convenient being frivolous about the whole mess.  innocent until proven guilty.  so what about being greedy.  no big deal.  you know what - a little bit of collective punishment (by way of getting ripped off, not the other kind) wouldn’t do you guys any harm at all.  you can joke about Reality all you want, it won’t go away in a hurry.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/03/09 at 12:19 pm

sorry alfons, i’m sorry for being frivolous. the reason i got into this site is that it bothers me what is happening here. my bofriend is part jewish, i know no major deal to you guys, but his family history makes me sad and i don’t know how to talk to him about it yet. i am afraid of what could happen again at some level but in my head i just really don’t believe it will and i am caught between thinkin people on this type of blog are right and people on this blog are parnoid. i do understand the differnce between the punishments you are talking about. and it does scare me. but. big but. the reality of my life and my ineractions with other people - apart from the occasional anti semmite- tell me that a pogrom won’t happen again. i believe that jews have to start pointing out all the other stuff going on in other countries, with non-jews in the us etc and DEFEND YOURSELVES. PUT IT IN PROPORTION FOR PEOPLE. so that hthey see when other people are dishonest - point in out EVERYTIME. and i am not joking about greed. that is what non-jewish people can not see in themselves. people simply do not understand the differnce between greed and thrift- so the ‘greed’ label has stuck - but thrift is a great thing to alot of people now if they could understand the connection between the environment and waste. anyway, whatever, you are a bit of a contrary fellow i think so i won’t expect a response.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/03/09 at 1:19 pm

and sorry! just realised have been spelling antsemite wrong!!

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/03/09 at 1:39 pm

alfons: “little bit of collective punishment (by way of getting ripped off, not the other kind) wouldn’t do you guys any harm at all.  you can joke about Reality all you want, it won’t go away in a hurry.”. alfons - you need to read a bit of the history of other countries and peoples. and saying things like “wouldn’t do you guys any harm at all” is just solipsistic. i totally believe that the holocaust was the greatest stain humanity has gotten in recent centuries but to say that other peoples need a taste of corruption and being ripped off and persecuted is ignorant and insensitive. people have their own lives and their own suffering. you can call me frivolous etc but my way of dealing with these things is sometimes to make a joke about it.
it will do lots of people harm what is happening now. there has been lots of very serious harm done in the past in many histories. your wish for more saying it “will do no harm” is no more than vindictiveness. i don’t understand where you are coming from. you have described what must have been terrible suffering in your own past but now you seem to be numb.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/03/09 at 3:29 pm

Whatever the source…Ecessive want i.e.greed is sinful to God.  AMEN

Comment by Jacqueline Kurz-Dunn on 3/03/09 at 3:50 pm

Joplin, dumb or numb who cares?  let the facts speak for themselves.  never has the image which the Jews have created of themselves, been worse.  crooked financiers, Gaza adventures, all grist to the mill.

yes I know:  the world is full of antisemites, why worry.

but it is not as simple as that.  in the foreseeable future, our homeland will have to make some tough decisions.  it will help a lot if we can get some support & world opion onside.

internal dissent & a shaky propaganda front will be counter-productive to say the least.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/03/09 at 11:41 pm

alfonsie. you missed my point. you made a vindictive comment about other people needing to get a taste of suffering - what planet are you on? can you not see the suffering in so many other places? some suffering everywhere? i fully support the right, I BELIEVE in the right to a jewish homeland. BUT you will LOSE massive support escpecially in europe if do not at least make israel be SEEN to be compassionate. and real compassion will sustain you longer. israel has much more good will than you realise but if they don’t find a compassionate solution, however hard that may be they will be ruined in terms of public support at least outside of the us. and europe does matter because it does want an israel but not at any cost and not many other areas of the world want any sort of israel at all. even though ultimatley this mess was our fault. just please tone it down.other people who have suffered just will not buy it if they perceive the palestinians not getting justice - and that is not to say that people don’t understand what you are up against it is about COMPASSION.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/04/09 at 11:51 am

Joplin, I did not miss your point at all.  but it is important to try & see ahead.  your capitals stand out & rightly so.  BELIEVE in the right ... good.  BUT will LOSE support ... absolutely!  make israel be SEEN to be compassionate ... it’s worth a try.  it is about COMPASSION ... you’ve got a real thing about that.  well for a start, the Jews don’t stone victims of packrape to death, do they now?  you want to bring the palestinian cause into it, forget it.  you’ll never prise politics & suffering apart.  not when you’ve got an endless war on your hands.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/04/09 at 2:07 pm

alfons. this does not have to be and endless war. i grew up in ireland in the 70’s and 80’s and as tenuous a comparison it is in some ways in others it is a valid one.the other side will always seem barbaric. even now to me the stoning by islamists is barbaric and i do not believe i will ever see it any other way. but you will never find peace as long as you try to apply your own codes of ethics and standards to meet the other side. you have to abandon all judgement on these things and meet as equals who are different. you have to be true to yourselves because if you say ‘well they stone so our ethics are out the window’ you lose a part of who you are and then you only have shards of yourself left to negotiate. you do not have to prise poilitics and suffering apart. you just have to find a ground of non-judgemental respect - respect at its most basic level. you cannot change a whole culture but you can dialogue with it if the language of judgement, hurt,accusation etc is left at the door because on those things we/the west/israel may never agree (at least not in the beginining).

Comment by jopinmet67 on 3/04/09 at 2:25 pm

Some says he’s innocent and some says not.. I think it’s better to wait until Bernie Madoff’s trial is over and see if he will be proven guilty or innocent.

Comment by Brian Malvizzi on 3/13/09 at 7:00 am

Brian, isn’t it a bit late in the day for that?  he did admit it, did he not?  unless he’s covering up for someone else of his tribe, which would make the crime no less despicable.  regardless it was him, or his wife or his grandmother ripped off all those people.  proving if proof is needed, that there is some truth in Streicher’s filthy allegations which I used to read in the ‘Stuermerkasten’ on my home from school.  that’s Berlin 1937 I’m talking about, none of you wishy-washy crybabies were even around, or witnessed the early years of ideological warfare.  to attempt a denial or look for some sort of mitigation, is akin to denying that other conflagration.  I ask you, have the Jews learnt nothing through all their suffering?  how can you ever hope for moral progress if you refuse to face the truth?

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/13/09 at 11:35 am

Alfons
The post by Brian Malvizzi is not a real post. It is spam, just an inane comment designed to make you click on his coded name that is a link to a website advertising something. Nothing requiring yet more hand-wringing over the status of the moral progress of the Jews.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/14/09 at 10:13 pm

I like how every forum on this website always veers from the original topic to vain bragging of how jews are genetically the best at this or that, and how all else are inferior beings/antisemites, blah blah, while completely overlooking that each and every member of the entire madoff family/organization/staff are/were knowing accessories to this heinous crime. no one man could pull this off entirely by himself, this was a financial 9-11, this took a cast of thousands and there should be hundreds of people going to jail. of course most of them would be jews of course, and the notion of hundreds of jews instantly jailed for widespread fraud would be too much for “the tribe” so the jewsmedia is spinning it for one man to fall so that the others can steal more billions down the road for the homeland.. seriously you “superior I.Q.” beings need to get your own planet. the rest of us will live in peace

Comment by madoff=fallguy=coverup on 3/22/09 at 5:09 am

In as much as the United States of America has been perhaps the most noble social experiment in human history, from the Biblical perspective shared by both Jewish and Christian communities America is neither Israel nor Co-Israel; she is one of the many nations in the world. To think that American exceptionalism can somehow trump the word of G-d is the sort of arrogance humanity has not seen since Nimrod and the Tower of Babel. Now couple this with what Zechariah said concerning “all the nations shall come against Jerusalem”. Would America be part of that horde? Would America sit out? Would America still exist in that day? There has been an ingathering from the East, North and South. When shall there be an ingathering from the West?

As long as it is less intolerable to live in North America than it is to live in Israel, the community shall stay put. However, why should that preclude what appears to be prudent steps for the reasonably swift and orderly voluntary departure should the need arise? I assume that many of the readers here are familiar with the IRS tax complications concerning expatriation with wealth sufficient for comfortable living overseas. Detachment from the USA via renunciation of US citizenship overseas is not as easy as firing pyrotechnic fasteners on spacecraft. If one made a certain amount of money over a set number of years and has a net worth above a certain dollar amount, the reason for expatriation will be presumed to avoid paying taxes. Such persons will continue to be taxed (and prosecuted if one fails to comply) as a citizen even though he/she no longer has that nexus. This is a difficult provision in the tax code to challenge since the plaintiff lost his/her standing as a citizen by reason of renunciation, but the nexus for taxing continues because wealth was ‘made from the United States’. I would be least surprised when IRS officials will begin dismissing claims that ‘expatriation by reason of persecution’ as a fig leaf for ‘leaving the country to avoid paying taxes’ because no reasonable government official wants to come off sounding like he/she endorses persecution. I can see this provision in USA law as a means of stripping Jews making aliyah of their wealth just like some other nations in recent history.

At the risk of sounding like a how-to manual on discreetly fleeing tyrannical regimes, here goes. I posit an approximately ten year end-to-end process from applying for citizenship in Israel wether via the Jewish Agency, Nefesh b’Nefesh or from within Israel on one’s own should one have only a Jewish father , moving family, career and and assets and ending with the formal act of renunciation receiving the CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) with no tax strings attached. The critical aspect is the expatriation tax. One must not be recorded as making more than X dollars in fewer than Y years and holding no more than Z dollars in net worth to avoid the presumption of expatriation to avoid paying taxes. One needs to order his/her life in a manner that would demonstrate to the IRS that one’s culture and worldview is no longer compatible with that found in America thus rebutting The Presumption. The most common reason is becoming baal-t’shuva and carrying out the mitzvah of aliyah (emigrating to Israel). For the one who wishes to remain secular, it becomes somewhat more difficult. For the one with enough money to be taxed beyond citizenship, just saying to the taxman “I don’t feel comfortable living among goyim” may not be sufficient to rebut The Presumption”. I know of one individual who shall go unnamed who made aliyah who was in no way wealthy enough to trigger The Presumption. He needed to flee creditors because his bankruptcy case was rejected. He also had the complications of being a Jesus believer and so had to recant Jesus and integrate himself in an Orthodox community so as to preclude any possibility of running afoul with the Interior Minstry upon emigration. This occured not too long before the Steckbeck Decision which made it legal for Jesus believing Jews to receive citizenship in Israel. Oh, the irony.

There are more and more suspicious eyes being cast toward George Soros and Bernie Madoff certainly will make matters worse. All I know is that there remains an ingathering from the West for the worldwide Jewish community. Whether or not these recent events make for the critical mass of fodder necessary in conjunction to a worsening economy to produce an expulsion event remains to be seen.  However, we cannot categorically deny that we in our day may be witnessing the groundwork for that part of prophecy to come to pass.

Comment by Gollem of Sprague on 3/22/09 at 9:41 am

to fallguy
Everybody thinks they are superior to others, and especially to Jews. You obviously think you are superior to Jews since you think you have the right to criticize us.  The only thing that bothers you is that we don’t give a crap what you think. We don’t say that any given Jew is superior, just our national qualities and God-given culture. You are free to emulate your ancestors, squat on your haunches and bark at the rising sun etc. if you think that makes you superior, and if we are feeling mellow we might even humor you. And while it is kind of you to offer us our own planet, we will be content with Greater Israel.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/22/09 at 7:34 pm

Ben:  not sure about the points you are trying so hard to drive home.  but belittling people & talking down at them is not the best way to get your opinions across.  whatever they might be.  your choice of words is not the best either.  Culture, Godgiven or otherwise - that one is greatly overrated.  far too many interpretations these days.  wife-bashing is acceptable in some cultures.  Superior is another one - superior in what way?  Bigger, better, richer, power of life & death?  chuck these phrases out the window & show some understanding.  learn to be a ‘mensch’ would be a good way to start.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/23/09 at 4:14 am

Alfons Heller
You are wasting your time and diverting the discussion. Chiding me with literalism while ignoring the poster I was replying to on a conceptual level shows a foolish and ineffectual lack of perspective. My post cannot be read without reference to that one, and in that context is the only possible response. This is not the first time you have displayed obtuseness to nuance. And if you don’t understand that civility can be overdone, then you cannot be who you represent yourself to be.

Why not deal with the substance of my comment, which was eminently clear?

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/23/09 at 8:10 pm

Ben, I am not chiding you with literalism, whatever that might be.  but by your response to fallguy you are lowering yourself to his level of provocation & arrogance & that is unconstructive, I am sorry to say.  if you go back to the heading of this blog, you will realize that there is much anger out there.  bluster & counter accusation is hardly the way to go.  wish I could contribute something more constructive, but at the risk of offending, mentally I am still in damage control & trying hard to keep it that way.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/24/09 at 4:25 am

Alfons
So sorry not to be supportive of your attempts to portray yourself as a transcendent spirit guide to the rest of us. To respond to crude and blatant verbal abuse with uncalled-for understanding, defensiveness and ‘damage control’ is not constructive. It falls into ‘the lady doth protest too much’ category. You have nothing to apologize for and neither do I, but by your obsequious and fearful contributions you are embarrassing all of us. We have established that God, Moses, the Torah, the prophets, the Talmud, the rabbis and Alfons Heller did not teach or authorize Madoff to defraud anyone. I never have, nor did my father or his going back to Adam. Get it now? Madoff is a Jew, but fraud is not Jewish. There is nothing you can say to placate nasty morons other than to hold them up as nasty morons. And that does not at all lower you to their level. I don’t know where you got that idea but it is not Jewish either.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/24/09 at 5:32 pm

ben - i object, and i am a non-jew- to what you have said about alfons. i have been following this thread, as the agnostic partner of a half jewish man. he had clearly read fall guys message before he responded to you. you responded to fall guy with a childish naa-naa-naa-naa-naa. god help us if you ever enter into diplomacy.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/25/09 at 11:27 am

and i have to say that alsfons contributions, to my mind, have apeared anything but obsequious. it seems to me, ben, that you think you can win over idiots by demeaning them. the problem with that is that it just makes idiots more angry and more idiotic, ya not a jewish idea, in this case, cos im not jewish (yet). and i think there is a big difference between “uncalled for understanding” and pure demeaning sarcasm. it is not being obsequious to refrain from the latter - it is being diplomatic - and acting like a grown up!

Comment by angelina1 on 3/25/09 at 12:04 pm

thanks Joplin, thanks Angie.  let us widen the scope of this discussion slightly.  in this day & age of political correctness, you are not allowed to say a bunch of drugpushers shot & killed a rival gang leader.  at best, the gunmen who drove off in a stolen car were of Asian appearance, or middle eastern if you like.  or better still, leave that out altogether & call them 3 or 4 youths, careful they might be armed.

what’s that got to do with Madoff?  nothing - except everyone knows he’s Jewish as are the Lehmans & quite a few others involved in shady & ultimately costly deals.  you think Obama doesn’t know it, you think the rest of the world doesn’t?  just not allowed to spell it out loud.  but it’s there & won’t go away in a hurry.
so how do I actually feel about it, myself a Jew, a modest unassuming scribbler of books & poetry?  Ben will say I’m expressing some kind of guilt, I’m crawling to the enemy.  I understand what Ben is saying.  today’s Jew does not bow & cringe under the whip the way he’s done for many centuries, when there was no defensive mechanism against pogroms,  persecution & extermination.  in the 19th century the Jews achieved much by way of emancipation, and how did they do it?  by thrift & wisdom & sometimes outstanding achievement, contribution to society (e.g. the Curies, Einstein, Freud, the Rothschilds) but never by direct confrontation. 

do I feel ashamed at what happened to bring on the crisis & focusing on one man who happens to be of my faith?  no, I wouldn’t say I do.  ashamed is not the word, because I had nothing to do with it, lucky not to be a victim.  I wish I could find the right word.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/25/09 at 4:05 pm

joplinmet67 and angelina1
Not much chance of my entering diplomacy. But for the record, my diplomatic hero is John Bolton, who brought moral and intellectual clarity to a field which is sorely lacking in it. Before him and for the same reasons was Daniel Patrick Moynihan as UN Ambassador.

Your error like alfons’ error is in believing that the deliberately offensive fallguy can be responded to or won over or some such with some mild suds, or is even worth the effort.

The reason I said that alfons is obsequious is just what I said, which you choose not to respond to either. If you care to, go back to my very first response to him, which I would just have to repeat here to make the same point. He is obsessed with the reaction and anger of non-Jews to people who fit the age old stereotype etc., and feels the solution is for the Jews to outdo the antisemites in order to provide a ‘good example’. I on the other hand do not allow myself and or Jews in general to be held hostage to any given evildoer, even bearing in mind that a case could be made for doing that if there was something to be gained. That cannot only not be proven, it can be disproven. According to alfons, he and 12 million other Jews cannot counteract one Madoff anyway.

On top of everything, Madoff is bad, but he is just a sideshow to the larger problems in the economy, with thousands of overwhelmingly non-Jewish evildoers looting their companies and the taxpayers to the tune of a hundred Madoffs. But who is going to look at twenty million or two billion or eight billion dollars stolen when they are not Madoff, after all?

OK, you grownups with your childish naa-naa-naa-naa-naa’s let’s hear a better answer.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/25/09 at 5:01 pm

And now to alfons. It appears our responses have crossed. The issue is not simply a matter of not cringing under the whip. It is of not taking responsibility for the misconceptions and accusations of others. A responsible study of those stereotypes have refuted them. Or to put it another way, if somebody calls you a dirty Jew, is the solution to scrub yourself and talk about it? And if you do happen to be dirty, should I as a Jew have to worry about myself? No, the solution is to confiscate the whip and show the oppressor the other end of it.

The right word is your fear that the accuser may be correct, or that you will be threatened by the actions of another. And yet when the German Jews showed up in the village squares wearing their WW I German Army medals to protect them, they traveled in the same cattle cars as their bearded cousins from the east.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/25/09 at 5:24 pm

ok ben, could you please operationalize ‘showing the oppressor the other end of the whip’? what is the whip and who gets it? no one except madoff should apologise for madoff and he has done that himself. he should not be excommunicated, in my opinion, and as far as i know he has not been. what can you do about stereotypes other than ignore them? or take ownership of them? if they really bother you that much then you have a problem with your own identity. you can’t accuse other people of being obsessed with what non-jews think when you get so ired by it yourself.
all i remember about john bolton is his moustache and the fact that he annoyed alot of people in the u.n.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/26/09 at 11:37 am

Ben, your latest post for my benefit - I agree with it would you believe!  the village square, so true (my father fought in WWI & what a lot of good that did him).  the whip, yes indeed (& there’s no way I’d apologize for a bit of collateral damage) but then along comes that throwback, that nazi propaganda Jew personified & dozens of his ilk & stuffs it up for everyone.  that is the unforgivable side of it.  Streicher - the greatest jew-hater & one of Hitler’s best mates - if he knew what’s going on he’d be laughing so hard his bones would rattle in his grave.

Comment by Alfons Heller on 3/26/09 at 12:25 pm

straight question alfons - what/who exactly do you mean by collateral damage?

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/26/09 at 12:34 pm

joplinmet67
I would love to reply to you if I could figure out what you were talking about. The source of the confusion seems to arise from your total failure to comprehend my comments or position. One clue to your M.O. is in your non-reaction to John Bolton, the straightest and clearest speaker in the UN since D.P.M.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/26/09 at 6:56 pm

Oh yes, joplinmet67, the whip. It was not my analogy but alfons’, and it happens to be apt. A direct example happened in Jewish Palestine; when the British occupation army flogged Jewish boys, the Irgun caught and flogged a major and three sergeants. When the British hung Jewish boys, the Irgun caught and hung British officers. This was not a case of revenge or ‘tit-for-tat’, it was a way to operationalize the principle that treating Jews in that manner would be reciprocated. Flogging and hanging were discontinued by the British occupation, which attempted to exert an authority they did not possess in a land not their own.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/26/09 at 7:26 pm

Alfons
It is a losing battle to depend on every Jew in the world (and ‘part-Jew’, former Jew, of Jewish descent etc.) to rise above the blanket criticisms of Jew haters. Suppose I proved to you that the Jews are collectively the most honest and ethical professionals of the financial industry? I can’t do that even though I believe it is true, and Madoff’s success is actually an indirect proof of that. Should all of them be held hostage to Madoff? Streicher an Goebbels did not need a Madoff to do their work. It would be instructive to follow through the presentation at this link - ‘Why the Jews?’ http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/26/09 at 7:55 pm

ben - in asking about the whip i meant wrt the current discussion re madoff - there is no whip in this situation, no irgun, no british. and i do have some understanding of occupation by same, and of your position. but what you are talking about here is stereotyping - what is the tangible action that can be taken against it? you are using language implying a strike back but it isnt at all clear how, in this situation, you could do that. and viz j.b. - it is a little solipsistic for an american to expect everyone in the rest of the world to revere or have the interest in your heros that you do. i follow politics at a basic level, i would never pretend to be an expert, and of course am influenced by the tone of reporting in the country i live (u.k. mostly) and make no apology for that.

Comment by joplinmet67 on 3/26/09 at 11:35 pm

joplinmet67
You are spending more time quibbling then reading the discussion. The whip in the discussion came from Alfons Heller, ‘I understand what Ben is saying.  today’s Jew does not bow & cringe under the whip the way he’s done for many centuries’. This was not exactly what I was saying except in an indirect way. If I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt I would say that the whip is the attitude that conveys disapproval of Jews and a sense of entitlement to do so (as with the British colonial administration in Jewish Palestine, to connect the dots). A wielder of a whip implicitly defines the other as a victim deserving of that treatment, and the response of the undeserving whippee must be to operationalize the paradigm shift. Thanks for the opportunity to use the word operationalize for the first time in my life.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/27/09 at 4:56 am

Clearly, Jews aren’t the only ones involved in financial scandals. But even Jews have to admit that Jews have taken more than their fair share of notable criminals - Michael Milliken, Ivan Boesky, all the Russian Jews that stole millions/billions and left the country.

Comment by Dont Respect Your Elders on 9/09/09 at 4:41 am

“Suppose I proved to you that the Jews are collectively the most honest and ethical professionals of the financial industry? I can’t do that even though I believe it is true, and Madoff’s success is actually an indirect proof of that.”

I thought this thread of discussion had been buried long ago & I’m only just catching up with it.  Ben, when I stop laughing I might attempt to reply to you ... there may be something in what you are saying, but the perverted twisted logic of it defies belief.

Indirect proof ... that’s a new one!

Comment by Alfons Heller on 9/09/09 at 2:05 pm

I agree take ownership of sterotypes or ignore them.  Stop pissing and moaning. Rabbis should excommunicate Bernie Madoff.  That man is a disgrace to judaism as well as humanity. I have heard too many times that Jews do not consider themselves a race and yet they cling to a tribe mentality.

Comment by Jacqueline Kurz-Dunn on 9/09/09 at 2:44 pm

I disagree. I think you ought to set up a website where every Jew in the entire world can apologize to you personally for Bernie Madoff, on top of all the other discussion on this topic. This project should take you the rest of your natural life.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 9/09/09 at 6:35 pm

I was surfing when I passed by your website. I must admit that I really enjoyed the quality information you offer to your visitors… Will be back often to check up on new stuff you post here Thanks for taking the time to post nice article.

Comment by UK Composite Doors on 11/27/09 at 11:39 am

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