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Of course they did: what would you expect from a people who lash to death rape victims who they consider “adulterers”; treat women as little better than animals (emphasis on little); stone gays to death for being gay; and burn and rape Christians who have been in those countries prior to Islam; and of course consider Mohammed a role model for being a pediaphile, having intercourse with the 9 year old Aisha.

Comment by george on 2/17/11 at 12:28 pm

This is absolutely false. I am a Jewish female and I was in Midan Tahrir that evening and there were no problems. Everyone was celebrating and the xenophobic tones of the past few days were completely absent. I actually was surprised how safe I had felt because I had bad encounters in other massive crowds.

Comment by MLE on 2/17/11 at 12:44 pm

I wasn’t there, but unless you were with Logan as she was attacked, there is no way you can know that this detail of the attack is “absolutely false.”

Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 2/17/11 at 12:47 pm

Typical liberal response - can’t say anything negative because it’s so not nice; can’t believe it’s really true even if there are eye witnesses.  And MLE, you were lucky once, I wouldn’t try it again.

Comment by george on 2/17/11 at 12:58 pm

Basically MLE is saying that Lara Logan wasn’t gang raped by crowd of moslems chanting Jew, Jew.  She is lying.  But even if she was, she really had it coming anyway.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 2/17/11 at 5:14 pm

apparently, there were egyptian women coming to her rescue.  the one thing i am not clear about in all of this, is whether these were the typical protestors, or baltagiya.

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/17/11 at 5:19 pm

They were baltagiya all right, but not necessarily the ones you mean. There is an effort around the Internet right now planting the notion on no evidence at all that the perpetrators were government thugs as opposed to the principled anti-government protesters. Well, the government didn’t tear the heads off mummies and loot the museums. But if you want to play it that way, the far more numerous ‘protesters’ did not rescue Logan from the ‘thugs’ (hmmm, I’m getting an idea for a video game right now; must run it by Soros… never mind, he says its already part of Phase II…). And the larger answer is that it makes no difference who they were. As soon as Logan became a ‘Jew’, Arab rules say she is prey for brutalization and degradation.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/17/11 at 9:24 pm

A. Lara Logan has not made a statement saying she was gang raped by Muslims chanting Jew Jew. The only official statement was from CBS saying she sustained a sexual assault, which is also used to describe non-penetrative acts. I was sexually assaulted in 2006 at the African Cup celebrations under similar circumstances. I got separated from my friends surrounded by a group of men and was touched inappropriately. My friend came back to rescue me and ended up getting punched in the face. You know what thought never crossed my mind since then? I deserve what happened to me.

b. I have lived in Cairo for five years and I stayed because Cairo is my home and I feel safe here. I went to Tahrir with my Egyptian friends and Israel wasn’t brought up except when Egyptians complained that Mubarak sells Israel natural gas under market value but makes a profit of Egyptian sales. I met Egyptians from all walks of life. I wasn’t groped or harassed once. I experienced none of the xenophobic rhetoric that was being flung on state TV. In fact the protesters were happy I stayed and wanted to know what my friends and family in America thought about what was happening. When the prisoners escaped and the baltigayah were roaming the streets my Muslim neighbors demanded I stay in their apartment so I would be safe. My grocer sent his brother to drive me home from the store in case there were sketchy people driving stolen taxis.  I stood outside one night for a neighborhood watch with my pepper spray and helped defend my block (nothing happened but we heard gunshots and were frightened by the news on TV)

The only anti-semitic thing I heard was on Mehwar channel where they had “callers” claiming they were trained by the US, Israel, Iran, and Hamas to overthrow the government. When I was confronted by pro-Mubarak friends, I asked them since I was a Jewish American, was I the one behind the protests? I actually got more insults about being American than Jewish.

I am very sad about what happened to Lara, but at the same time its a wake up call for Egyptian activists that all of Egypt’s problems don’t begin and end with Mubarak and they need to devote just as much energy to solving these issues as well. I will continue to stay here because I will not let a bunch of hooligans scare me off.

But trying to insert anti-semitism where there was none is dirty and low and makes you no better than Mubarak’s three ring TV circus trying to blame the protests on any enemy, real or imagined.

Comment by MLE on 2/18/11 at 1:27 am

MLE, assuming you who you say you are, you obviously live in a bubble or are in serious denial.  Google Egypt and antisemitism and you get 1,500,000 entries.  Over a million articles, many the mainstream press, categoring widespread Egyptian official and societal hatred of Jews (not Israelis, not Israel but Jews).  Again, you were lucky the other night - I wouldn’t try it again.

Comment by george on 2/18/11 at 7:12 am

And the Jewish community isn’t filled with anti-Arab and Muslim hatred? I don’t deny who I am and where I came from and because I don’t fear them and I show interest in learning about them, they show interest in learning about me. The more you scare people about the world around them, the more suspicious and prejudiced they become.

Lara Logan was rescued by Egyptian women. Egyptians are disgusted by what happened to her and have apologized on behalf of their people. When is the last time you apologized on behalf of your people?

No- you want to play the victim card instead of standing up for yourself and challenging their stereotypes.

Comment by MLE on 2/18/11 at 9:39 am

MLE, now I know you’re not a Jew:
“When is the last time you apologized on behalf of your people?”  Not “our people”?  Obviously you’re not one of us.

And further evidence you’re not a Jew: if you were you’d know there is no hatred of Arabs or Muslims; just a well founded fear they are trying to murder us.  No one befriends Arabs faster than Jews when they don’t bear an animus to Jews.

Comment by george on 2/18/11 at 9:44 am

George, nice catch. It wouldn’t surprise if MLE ws one og the Egyptians that thought gang raping a woman that they thought was Jewish was well, the thing to do.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 2/18/11 at 10:00 am

Because people like you have driven me out of my own community. Keep it up- lose the rest of “our” young people.

Comment by MLE on 2/18/11 at 10:48 am

MLE, do you have any study, other than your rich anecdotal experience, to support your assertions? Are you arguing that the Zogby poll of Egyptians which determined the vast majority of them are hopelessly bigoted against Jews and women – is wrong? And if you were there, did you miss the famous effigy of Mubarak at the center of Tahrir Square with the word Zionist on its chest? And the many Mubarak’s pics carried by the mob with a Jewish star splashed across its face?

Comment by Harvey on 2/18/11 at 11:24 am

MLE, you may have missed it: According to a 1999 report from the World Health Organization, 97 percent of Egyptian women and girls have undergone the barbaric practice of genital mutilation. A 2005 report by the Cairo-based Association for Legal Rights of Women submitted to the UN explained that Egyptian women are constitutionally deprived of their basic rights including their rights to control their bodies and property. Males who murder their female relatives are often unpunished. When they are tried and convicted for premeditated murder, their sentences average from 2 to 4 years in prison.

Comment by Harvey on 2/18/11 at 11:27 am

So MLE, you are welcome to live in the place where you are happy. I heard many nice stories about Egypt and Egyptians that are sincere. But PLEASE, stop lecturing us when in fact you are the one who lives in a bubble.

Comment by Harvey on 2/18/11 at 11:30 am

Wait minute. This smells funny. Egyptians, who speak Arabic, shouting “Jew, Jew..” in English… at a blond-haired, Gentile reporter? Huh? Does this sound right to you?

Comment by Abe on 2/18/11 at 1:29 pm

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that in these lands full of backward, illiterate people,any western journalist is considered a Zionist agent.  Female journalists covering Palestinian territories are OFTEN raped and otherwise sexually assaulted—check it out yourself.

Comment by leslie on 2/18/11 at 1:35 pm

No Abe,it doesn’t sound funny (in either sense): in much of the Arab world, “Jew” means “disgusting sub-human” (in the same way that some high school kids use “fag” not to designate a sexual preference but as a term of opprobrium).  So if used by a mob in Egypt (where many speak a few words of English)it’s not necessarily meant literally.  And btw, why can’t a Jew be a blonde woman?

Comment by george on 2/18/11 at 1:38 pm

Yes Abe, most Egyptians are known to speak Arabic, though they know what the word “Jew” means in English. Most think of Jewish women as dark, but some are actually blonde. And many people think Jews are smart, whereas you are the living proof they are wrong.

Comment by Mini on 2/18/11 at 1:55 pm

For the record I am a blond, blue-eyed Jewish woman.  Anybody who has been to Israel knows that Jews come in every flavor.  And as far as calling Logan “Jew,” maybe they did say it in Arabic.  It doesn’t sound that different in Arabic.

Comment by leslie on 2/18/11 at 2:17 pm

MLE, I agree we should use caution in accepting a report that has been sourced to the NY Post with, so far, no corroboration from anyone else.  I am waiting to hear from Ms. Logan herself before accepting or dismissing this story.

I suggest you do the same.  How can you state so surely that you know what happened in a crowd of over a million people?  And your comparison of Logan’s brutal attack to your own earlier experience in Africa is offensive.  She suffered internal injuries that put her in the hospital for four days.  This is more than being inappropriate touching.

Comment by Eric Estrin on 2/18/11 at 2:58 pm

I have not been in Egypt but I have spent time in Jordan and Lebanon as well as Israel over the past four decades and the only examples of group hatred that I saw expressed was in Israel against Arabs which is considered a dirty word and certain work, such as agriculture and construction, is disdained as “Arab work” and where groups of freedom loving Jews routinely shout “Death to Arabs” whenever there has been an attack against an Israeli by a Palestinian Arab and leave the same slogan, in Hebrew, as grafitti, on the country’s walls.

The attack on Lara Logan was disgusting but I, too, doubt very much that those assaulting her shouted “Jew, Jew!, etc.” Given that the source for the story was the NY Post makes the charge even less credible.

What was more likely was that something entirely different was involved. As anyone who has traveled in countries where the population is predominantly non-European should have noticed, the people have largely been culturally colonized by the West to believe that the epitome of beauty is to have blond hair and blue eyes, which is why so many women, even in the West, dye their hair so as to reach that standard. To be dark skinned, on the other hand, is to be considered ugly and there are terms in every language to express that. Under the circumstances, it is quite likely that Lara Logan was seen as a representative of the dominant Western culture that they see as being behind Mubarak, and not, like Mubarak, able to defend herself. This does not in any way excuse what they did but to put in a more logical context and one that has nothing to do with Jews.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/18/11 at 3:20 pm

HollywoodJeff, have you ever talked to Israeli Jews, or Druze, or Christian Arabs who live in adjacent to Muslim Arabs, and did they tell you what it’s like? Have you tried having an Israeli flag in your car when you enter an Arab village?  Have you spoken to farmers in the Galilee who are bearing the brunt of the Arab crime on crop and equipment? Have you spoken to residents of the Negev who are sick and tired of the lawlessness, the robberies, the carjacking, and other violent acts? Have you heard of Israeli police who will not dare investigating Arab crimes for fear of entering their villages? Have you seen Israeli forests being burnt by Arab arsonists? Have you seen Arabs passing candies and dancing on the roof after every incident of dead Jews? You may have been to places, but you still have a lot to learn in life.

Comment by Avi on 2/18/11 at 3:45 pm

HollywoodJeff explains it: “It is quite likely that Lara Logan was seen as a representative of the dominant Western culture…” Brilliant! Just Brilliant! Love your logic! Let me make a wild guess: HollywoodJeff must be another proud graduate of LAUSD.

Comment by Mini on 2/18/11 at 4:06 pm

So Mr. HollywoodJeff, would extend the same moral relativism to Jews in Israel, or is it a moral-discount reserved for off-white people only? Which in this case have you noticed the number of dark skinned Israelis? Do get get a break too?

Comment by Avi on 2/18/11 at 4:11 pm

There is bigotry here, I never said there wasn’t. However, most people don’t understand the words Jew as anything other than Israel anymore, since nearly all the Jews are gone. Mubarak supported Israel in almost everything, without listening to his people. When people complained, he had them tortured and killed. But it was Mubarak’s people who controlled the media and filled the air with claims the protesters were Israelis and Zionist spies.

I live here because its tough, because I have to face ignorance and prejudice sometimes. But the more we mix and interact with each other, the less awkward it gets. A friend from Saudi Arabia was upset when he learned I didn’t speak Hebrew because he wanted me to teach him.

As for what happened to Lara, no I don’t know exactly what happened to her. However, as a foreign female I have been in similar situation, all my previous roommates, my colleagues, and other female ex-pats. It’s a sick sad rite of passage we all deal with at some point and being caught in a crowd makes it even worse. If she were still here, I would have offered her our ‘expat support group ice cream social treatment’

There is really disgusting rhetoric coming from both sides. People have been playing “Who behaves worst?” for 60 years and it hasn’t gone anywhere. Can’t we be happy that there are people seeking freedom who aren’t chanting “Death to America” and “Death to Israel” but “The People Want the the regime to fall”? That Arabs are using non-violent rhetoric? Haven’t we always complained there was no Arab Ghandi or Arab Dr. King or Arab Mendela? This is going to be the chance to find them.

Comment by MLE on 2/18/11 at 4:34 pm

I have talked to Israeli Arabs who are treated as second class citizens by their Israeli Jewish neighbors. I would not think of displaying an Israeli flag under any conditions. That the state of Israel has made the state’s political symbol out of what for centuries was a religious symbol and put it on its flag has made it a legitimate target.  Any fool who waves an Israeli flag while entering an Arab village should expect to receive less than a warm greeting since it is but another reminder whose land it was before 1948. I happen to be an think of myself as an American and while I have served in our armed forces, I am not one who waves any flag.

As for the notion of Israeli police being afraid to enter Arab villages, that seems to be so much nonsense when the IDF seems have no compunction about entering West Bank villages and refugee camps in the middle of the night and dragging out Palestinians while blowing up their apartments, and yes, I have seen that. I have also seen the olive trees of Palestinians, hundreds of years old, that have been bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlements or just out of the plain old sadism that has become routine under Israel’s occupation. And I have seen more than enough of that sadism, in the West Bank, Gaza, in Lebanon under Israeli occupation, and in Israel itself to know what I am talking about. I have not spoken, I admit, with any of the Israelis who sat in lawn chairs and watched the fireworks created by Israel’s dropping of white phosphorous on the people of Gaza two years ago, but I can imagine they are your lanzsmann (and I don’t mean Claude) in more ways than one.

And no, Avi, I would not extend what you call “moral relativism” to the Jews of Israel to justify their treatment of the Palestinians because they happen to be in the dominant position in Israel/Palestine although it would be likely that the mizrahim, the Arab Jews, are also victims of the same cultural imperialism of the West, particularly when they see the images presented of Israel to the West (for non-political, propaganda purposes). Taking the lead from the blue-eyed blond Paul Newman in Exodus to Israel’s top models today, please tell me one who is not ashkenazi.

And yes, indeed, I am partially a product of the LAUSD as well as one of the area’s distinguished universities.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/18/11 at 4:47 pm

HollywoodJeff, (1) You purposely ignored the fact that I was referring to Israeli Arabs citizens within the green lines, not to those in the disputed territories. Though they are both share the same herritage and hate for Israel, there is a big difference in their status.  (2) You may wish to learn that the Israeli police are not the IDF. (3) I did not say “wave a flag”, though there is nothing wrong with it. I suppose you will accept not being able to carry an American flag anyplace in America as well. As for the rest of what you wrote, I will let your words speak for themselves. Now it’s an opportunity for you to add that Israel is an apartheid state. Go ahead. Show your true colors

Comment by Avi on 2/18/11 at 5:05 pm

If you haven’t detected my “true colors” by now, you’re pretty dense but that’s not a rarity in the world’s largest Jewish ghetto. But’s let’s face it, Avi. The “peace process” has been a charade from the get-go, with Israel using it as a prop to expand its settlements and the number of Jews in the West Bank while buying off the PA, which probably made paying $8 million a month into Arafat’s personal account for the first five years after Oslo a bargain.

Israel/Palestine or whatever you want to call it—and I do know what you would like to call it, Ersatz Israel (sic)—it is one state, from the Med to the Jordan with two states existing only in the dreams of peaceniks, and yes, that one state is an apartheid state and has been so labeled by a number of Israelis, journalists and historians,all of whom were born there (were you?)not to mention some distinguished South Africans who had some experience with their country’s version. That the two countries were closely allied was not a coincidence. It was in 1948 that apartheid became the official policy of South Africa which did not hesitate to tell the truth about it.

Until 1966, the Palestinian Arabs who remained in Israel were under military law, a form of apartheid, n’est-ce-pas?, and until quite recently, 93% of the land controlled by the Jewish National Fund, Keren Kayemet, was restricted to Jews only. That was, in fact, most of Israel proper. Restricted covenants was something that Jews had considerable experience with in the US and elsewhere but I guess it is kosher when the shoe is on the other foot.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/18/11 at 5:46 pm

Mr. HollywoodJeff, I am getting a headache: What does all this have to do with off-white Egyptians assaulting a white woman whom they thought was a Jewish oppressor? Have the Zionists oppressed Egyptians too? What the hell are you taking about? I am flabbergasted by your breathtaking logical acrobatics. And have a great life

Comment by Avi on 2/18/11 at 6:48 pm

HollyJeff, what gives you the right to live in the American occupied land of Southern California and preach to others? What is your claim? Are your roots here go back 4000 years? You have no business here, unless of course you are off-white. And now you have to forgive me, but I have an important meeting to attend with the board of the Elders of Zion

Comment by Avi on 2/18/11 at 7:51 pm

Are you sure it’s not also a stomach ache having bit off more than you can swallow? You asked the questions, right? I only answered them in a way that made you wish you hadn’t asked them. As for the allegation that Lara Logan’s attackers did so claiming she was Jewish has only been mentioned by Glenn Beck, excuse me, the NY Post which enjoys a similar reputation though not quite the same popularity.

As for my right to live in California, let’s say because I was born here and that none of my relatives had anything to do with dispossessing the indigenous peoples of this land and have, in fact, spoken up against the crimes committed against them, like, let’s say, B’Tselem. As for roots, my dear departed grandfather who was born in Brooklyn used to say that we were directly linked to David which impressed me for a while until I realized what was going on over there and publicly relinquished by connection to it. He was a member of something called the Sons of Zion that predated Herzl but I only found that out later. He was something of a humanist and I don’t think he would like to see what his Zion has become.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/18/11 at 8:30 pm

Went to the AIPAC dinner two nights ago, what a joy, great, fun upbeat Jews (and a few non Jews), totally supportive of Israel, that’s the reality of life in the US, not the campuses of hatred and mass media of misinformation.  Israel and Jews live and will live!

Comment by sam on 2/19/11 at 2:23 pm

Enjoy it while you can. Today Americans saw another proof that thanks to the power of AIPAC and the bulging checkbooks of the major donors to the Democratic Party, President Obama put Israel’s interests over that of this country and had his UN ambassador veto a resolution that reinforced the illegality of Israeli settlements. The vote was 14 to 1 with the US being the lone opponent. At a time when the peoples of North Africa and the Middle East are throwing off their dictators, all of whom the US supported or tolerated, that vote sends a message that America is not on their side but on Israel’s. All of you Israel Firsters, of course, don’t give a damn about how the world views this country. It’s not even a case of dual loyalty. You only really care about Israel. One day, I suspect, you will be asked to account for that. Pleasant dreams.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/20/11 at 12:25 am

Sam, thanks to AIPAC the USA stands up to up to the Arab and oil lobbies. Thuogh most Americans understand the issues, some liberal Jews insist on being useful idiots. But you know, rotten apples have always been around, and yet we manage to survive.

Comment by Avi on 2/20/11 at 12:33 am

@MLE
Of course Logan has not made a statement. From a personal point of view, this is really nobody’s business, and her life is not public property. Furthermore, CBS is right to undertate this, but the more general term sexual assault is absolutely used for rape. It really makes no difference to anyone but you.

Same for being a Jew. The Egyptian Jews that I know never felt as safe as you and today feel less so. Maybe you need to brush up on the reports that everybody else is getting.

Egypt has been marinating ion antiSemitism for a century in the media and the school system, and you cannot imagine how false you sound to scold the world for knowing that.  Egypt has been preparing its population for another war with Israel. Here is link to the Egyptian education curriculum http://impact-se.org/research/egypt/index.html

Dr. Andrew Bostom has written ‘The Legacy of Islamic AntiSemitism’ in which Egypt plays a large role. In it he recounts that light-skinned Egyptians are subject to being called Jews and harassed.

http://www.andrewbostom.org/

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/20/11 at 1:26 am

@HollywoodJeff
You say that you have had no part in against dispossession and crimes committed against indigenous peoples. But you have. Unfortunately your sainted grandfather never put across to you that Israel is a global reservation for the Jewish (Israelite) people who are indigenous to the land of Israel, and were dispossessed in illegal colonial actions by the Muslim conquest. Israel may conduct its administration along democratic lines, but just as a Cherokee reservation cannot be invaded by people like you and the Cherokees outvoted and the land sold for condos, so can Israel’s Jewish character not be diluted by any form of democracy and multiculturalism or whatnot. don’t get distracted by all the humanist bushwah. You have to distinguish between human rights, civil rights, and national rights. Nobody has national rights in the state of Israel but the nation of Israel. Nobody should have civil rights in Israel but supporters of the Jewish state. All humans of course should have human rights, which does not include a conflict with the first two.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/20/11 at 1:35 am

Ben Plonie, HlwJeff’s words are louder than him. He is well aware of the issues, but as you correctly noted, his interpretation of historical facts is as warped as his moral application. For example, with all the mayhem and violence that has been going on in the Middle East, the place where Arabs are treated with most respect; the only place where they enjoy economic freedom and freedom of speech – Israel — is also the only subject of his criticism. In short, you are wasting your time. He is a lost cause.

Comment by Avi on 2/20/11 at 2:29 am

Just want to say that while such sentiments are unfortunately not rare, how painful it always is to read the self-hatred and Jewish anti-Semitism expressed by some people here.  And anti-Americanism.  We don’t live in Gan Eden, there may be real reasons to criticize ourselves, America and Israel, but the bottom line is Israel is a shining light in a region full of hateful violent primitives, and America has done incalculable good for the entire world.  So much good will in fact, that some of those blessed to be raised here cannot fathom that there are actually societies on this earth where there is no concept of “do not do unto others.”  Time to wake up and smell the stink of what really is rotten!  And anyone with brains knows when a woman cannot be safe in public in the daytime, America and Israel are not the problem.

Comment by leslie on 2/20/11 at 10:20 am

i think one thing you have to consider here is how much of this is our own damn fault.  our own tax dollars have bought the egyptian government.  the egyptians then turned around and bought the baltagiya to rape and sexually torture people.  and then we turn around and rendered our own prisoners to egypt.  our tax dollars buy rape and torture, often at our own request.

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/516/why-mubarak-is-out-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States

Comment by Proton Soup on 2/20/11 at 6:26 pm

I guess that’s what they call ‘realpolitik’. Anyone who thought it was over with Kissinger has had to witness our fearless leader Obama sucking up to every dictator and blowing off true popular sentiment. But enough about George Soros and the Health Reform Act.

Obama threw the Iranian protesters under the bus in the last election fraud. If the USA had any principles, it would be supporting Israeli settlements and offering one way bus tickets to the Arab squatters to their ancestral homelands; hint, not in Palestine.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/20/11 at 9:44 pm

If the USA was not subjected to the dictates of the Israel Lobby, the US would have responded in kind for Israel’s unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty in 1967. As it is, the American people hardly know about it as they don’t know about the five Mossad agents who were arrested on the morning of 9-11 after a woman reported five Middle Eastern looking men laughing and giving high fives while taking videos of the first burning WTC tower. They and the name of their employer, a Mossad front called the “Urban Moving Company,” were named in an article in the Forward, March 15,2002. For some reason this significant arrest was not seen fit to print by the mainstream media. The five were held in jail for two months and then allowed to leave for Israel without a formal investigation of what a group of Israeli spies were doing in the US. One might also ask why these Mossad agents were even needed here when it seems from just reading the comments in the Jewish Journal that there are so many sayanim in Los Angeles alone ready to betray the country of their birth for Israel, all fans—-no doubt—of the traitor Jonathan Pollard, that it shouldn’t be necessary to infiltrate them from Israel. You, Ben Phonie, seem like an ideal candidate.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/21/11 at 12:31 am

HJ
A little thought will reveal the weakness of your post. Without conceding the truth of what you say which I don’t, we will play it your way for arguments’ sake. But instead of just throwing out nonsense, make some sense out of what you say.

I am betting you can’t answer even one of the following questions in a non-idiotic way. Nothing tricky about them.

Why do you think Israel attacked the USS Liberty in 1967? Focus on the question.

Why do you think the US did not react strongly against Israel at the time or since? Because the USA is subjected to the dictates of the Israel Lobby of course.

But why is the mighty USA subjected to the dictates of the Israel lobby? Because Israel and the Jews and the Zionists are so terrible? But that doesn’t explain the US subjugation. Focus on the question.

Assuming that there were five Mossad agents giving high fives about 911, why would they do that? To get Afghanistan in trouble? To get the US to attack Iraq two years later? Israel already took out the Osirak reactor against the wishes of the US. Remember, a non-idiotic answer.

How did the Mossad recruit 19 Saudi Arabians named Muhammad to hijack the airplanes? Make some sense here. Because the Zionists secretly control Saudi Arabia? Uh huh.

You are correct that I am a fan of Jonathan Pollard. But in light of Pollard’s abandonment by Israel’s insufficiently Zionist political establishment, I would not do what he did.

I predict that Obama will commute Pollard’s sentence before the next election, so that the liberal Jews will have a talking point about Obama’s great and brave friendship with Israel and the Jews. My advice to Sarah Palin is to pre-empt Obama and strongly call for his release immediately.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/21/11 at 1:08 am

MLE, yup you were perfectly safe in that Cairo crowd,what happened to the reporter will NEVER happen to you: 
And medical sources have revealed that marks on her body were consistent with being whipped and beaten with the makeshift poles that were used to fly flags during the demonstration.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358944/Lara-Logan-attack-Stripped-punched-whipped-flag-poles.html#ixzz1EbyIBKYa

Comment by george on 2/21/11 at 9:29 am

HollywoodJeff: Here is the story of the “Mossad Agents” from 9-11: A group of Israelis in their early 20’s who had been staying in the US illegally and worked in NYC as movers were on their day off on the morning of 9-11. While on a sight-seeing on the NJ side, they looked at the burning buildings and apparently poking some jokes as only youngsters could behave like such idiots. Someone saw that group of laughing foreign “Mossad” agents and reported them to the authorities. They were arrested and found themselves in big trouble with the FBI, but in the end they were all deported. How do I know that? Because my second cousin was in that group of friends, and only by sheer luck he could not join them that day. And you Jeff, since you are such a freaking idiot, and since these are your sources of information, I will not dignify you with any response again. But I suggest you get your head examined. You need some serious help.

Comment by Avi on 2/21/11 at 9:33 am

I am awaiting HollywoodJeff’s non-idiotic answer to my very simple and straight questions. Actually they arehis own unasked questions. btw HJ is no Jew in spite of a bit of lingo. He is a standard-issue jew-hater, and that lingo is in there too.

But while we are here with the Mossad agents or whatever, I was looking at a TV on 9-11 in the cafeteria of the office building I worked at in 2001, and CNN ran a stream of Palestinians dancing in the streets and on the car roofs and pumping their fists and shooting guns and throwing candy on 911. This video was on for about an hour or two and then disappeared, never to be seen again. Palestinians do not ordinarily cheer the accomplishments of the Mossad, nor do they ordinarily work for a common goal. Like I say, you can throw any mud you want but it has to make just a little sense. HollywoodJeff is finished here.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 2/21/11 at 10:32 am

Believe it or not, Phonie, I have other things to do in my life besides raising the blood pressure of American Zionists.  So here’s your questions and my answers:

Why do you think Israel attacked the USS Liberty in 1967? Focus on the question. THERE ARE TWO REASONS SUGGESTED BY INFORMED SOURCES, BOTH PRO AND CRITICAL OF ISRAEL. ONE IS THAT ISRAEL DID NOT WANT THE U.S. TO KNOW THAT IT PLANNED TO TAKE OVER THE GOLAN HEIGHTS AND THE OTHER THAT IT DID NOT WANT THE U.S. TO KNOW ABOUT A MASSACRE OF 400 EGYPTIANS THAT ISRAEL HAD CARRIED OUT. FOR ME, THE REASON IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE FACTS OF THE MATTER WHICH HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED BY THE SURVIVORS, ALL MEMBERS OF THE UNITED STATES NAVY. 34 DEAD AND 171 WOUNDED WITH ISRAEL USING NAPALM AND STRAFING PEOPLE IN LIFE BOATS.

Why do you think the US did not react strongly against Israel at the time or since? Because the USA is subjected to the dictates of the Israel Lobby of course. EXACTLY, LBJ, UNLIKE JFK WAS DEEP IN THE EMBRACE OF THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND OCCASIONALLY, WHEN NO WAS LOOKING, THE BEAUTIFUL MATILDA KRIM, WIFE OF ARTHUR KRIM, ONE OF THE DEMOCRATS MAJOR FUNDERS. SINCE HE NEEDED THE MONEY FROM WEALTHY JEWS FOR HIS NEXT PRESIDENTIAL RUN AND HAD ENOUGH ON HIS PLATE WITH THE VIETNAM WAR, HE ORDERED ALL THE SURVIVORS OF THE LIBERTY TO KEEP THEIR SILENCE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED OR ELSE FACE A COURT-MARTIAL. THE COMMANDER WAS GIVEN A MEDAL OF HONOR BUT NOT BY LBJ AND NOT IN WASHINGTON, BUT THE BROOKLYN NAVY YARD.

IT IS DOUBTFUL IF JFK WOULD HAVE BEHAVED IN SUCH A CRAVEN MANNER. AFTER ALL, KENNEDY WAS THE LAST PRESIDENT TO SUPPORT THE PALESTINIAN RIGHT OF RETURN RES. 194, WAS ADAMANTLY OPPOSED TO ISRAEL GETTING NUKES AND HAD HIS BROTHER IN THE JUSTICE DEPT. ACTIVELY TRYING TO GET THE AMERICAN ZIONIST COUNCIL, THE PREDECESSOR TO AIPAC, TO REGISTER AS A FOREIGN AGENT, THREE RED LINES THAT ISRAEL COULD NOT ALLOW TO BE CROSSED.

But why is the mighty USA subjected to the dictates of the Israel lobby? Because Israel and the Jews and the Zionists are so terrible? But that doesn’t explain the US subjugation. Focus on the question.

FOLLOW THE MONEY. CONGRESS IS NOTHING MORE THAN A PACK OF LAWYERS WHO ARE FOR SALE TO A NUMBER OF CLIENTS, AND THE ZIONIST LOBBY IS ONE OF THE MAJOR BUYERS. WHO ELSE BUT YOUR BUDDY, HAIM SABAN, WOULD GIVE THE DEMOCRATS $12.3 MILLION IN 2002, SEVEN MILLION OF WHICH WAS USED TO BUILD THE PARTY’S DC HEADQUARTERS. ALSO, THE SECTOR OF THE COMMUNITY THAT IS DEDICATED TO ISRAEL ÜBER ALLES, IS VERY WELL ORGANIZED WHILE THOSE WHO OPPOSE ISRAEL AND ITS POLICIES ARE NOT ONLY UNORGANIZED BUT NOT VERY SMART SINCE MOST UNDERESTIMATE THE LOBBY’S INFLUENCE.

Assuming that there were five Mossad agents giving high fives about 911, why would they do that? To get Afghanistan in trouble? To get the US to attack Iraq two years later? Israel already took out the Osirak reactor against the wishes of the US. Remember, a non-idiotic answer.

WHEN THEY WERE RELEASED FROM PRISON AND INTERVIEWED ON ISRAELI TV AND ASKED THAT QUESTION THEY REPLIED THAT THEY WERE THERE “TO DOCUMENT THE EVENT.”

How did the Mossad recruit 19 Saudi Arabians named Muhammad to hijack the airplanes? Make some sense here. Because the Zionists secretly control Saudi Arabia? Uh huh.

I NEVER SAID AND DON’T BELIEVE THEY DID. I DO BELIEVE THAT THE HIJACKERS WERE INFILTRATED BUT DON’T BELIEVE FOR A MINUTE THAT THOSE TWO PLANES BROUGHT DOWN THE TOWERS OR BUILDING SEVEN, 47 STORIES, THAT WAS HIT BY NOTHING. I SUBSCRIBE TO THE THEORY, ATTESTED TO BY SOME 1400 ENGINEERS AND ARCHITECTS THAT THE BUILDINGS WERE BROUGHT DOWN BY PRE-PLANTED EXPLOSIVES SINCE THEY COLLAPSED IN A MANNER THAT HAS ONLY BEEN SEEN IN CONTROLLED DEMOLITIONS. THERE IS FURTHER EVIDENCE THAT SOME IN ISRAEL KNEW ABOUT IT SINCE TWO HOURS BEFORE THE FIRST PLANE HIT, THE ISRAELI ODIGO MESSAGING SERVICE RECEIVED A CALL WARNING OF THE ATTACK. THIS WAS REPORTED IN HA’ARETZ AND THE WASHINGTON POST AND NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN.

NOT THAT HE WAS INVOLVED, BUT YOUR PRIME MINISTER’S (BIBI) FIRST REACTION WAS THAT THE ATTACK WAS “GOOD FOR ISRAEL” BECAUSE NOW AMERICANS WOULD SEE WHAT THE ISRAELIS GO THROUGH ON A DAILY BASIS OR SOME SUCH NONSENSE LIKE THAT.

WHETHER I AM JEWISH OR NOT, DEPENDS ON HOW ONE DEFINES IT. IF IT IS SIMPLY BASED ON MY MOTHER BEING JEWISH, I INDUBITABLY QUALIFY. IF IT IS BASED ON BY BELIEF IN JUDAISM, BEING AN ATHEIST, I DON’T NOR DO I CELEBRATE THE HOLIDAYS AND HAVEN’T SINCE I WAS CHILD. IF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH SUPPORTING ISRAEL OR BEING A ZIONIST I MOST DEFINITELY DON’T BECAUSE I AM CONVINCED THAT THE ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL WILL PROVE TO BE THE GREATEST DISASTER THAT HAS EVER BEEN EXPERIENCED BY THE JEWISH PEOPLE. UNLIKE THE HOLOCAUST, HOWEVER, IT HAS BEEN A SELF-INFLICTED WOUND.

ALREADY IT HAS PRODUCED JEWS LIKE YOURSELF AND AVI WHO, UNFORTUNATELY, NOT IN A MINORITY. I LIKE TO THINK THAT BEFORE ISRAEL WAS ESTABLISHED THE LIKES OF YOU DID NOT EXIST AND I DID NOT THINK TWICE OF NOT PROUDLY IDENTIFYING AS JEW. I WAS PROBABLY WRONG BECAUSE IT MUST HAVE BEEN JEWS LIKE YOU WHO ETHNICALLY CLEANSED PALESTINE AND CREATED THE WORLD’S LARGEST GHETTO.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/21/11 at 6:12 pm

Avi, sorry to disappoint you, but your 2nd cousin wasn’t telling you the truth. First of all, the moving company was based in New Jersey and not New York so your cousin’s “friends” were not on a sight-seeing trip, particularly on a work day. When they were arrested by the police, they reportedly said, ‘We’re not the ones you want. You want the Palestinians’ or something close to that. You make think it’s okay for Mossad to run operations in this country but as a loyal American, I don’t, and neither would most Americans if they were aware of it. And they were not the only ones.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 2/21/11 at 6:19 pm

Correct. I just spoke to him today to refresh my fading memory. It was him on a day off, the group was at work. But it doesn’t really matter. You win. Those were undoubtedly Mossad agents.

Comment by Avi on 2/21/11 at 6:35 pm

Hollywood Jeff, ( must have taken an asshole like you hours to come up with that one ) While your spewing information tell me who was on the grassy knoll in Dallas. A scumbag like you should know.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 2/21/11 at 8:23 pm

Some liberal Jews from West LA will find it hard to comprehend.  Indeed Most sexual assaults in the Arab world do not get to this level of brutality. But the problem is not limited to Egypt only. This time it is not the NY Post: The liberal media is slowly waking up. Today’s LA Times article “Egypt’s women face growing sexual harassment” is long overdue. “Catcalls, fondling, indecent exposure and other forms of sexual harassment by strangers are an everyday occurrence for women on the streets of Cairo, according to human rights groups, social scientists, diplomats and interviews with Egyptians. Moreover, predatory packs have brutalized women at several public places, including a soccer stadium, in recent years, according to witnesses and local news accounts.”

This article gives you a glimpse into what it’s like for Israeli women who live in close proximity to Arab neighborhoods.

Comment by Avi on 2/23/11 at 3:06 pm

AYE AYE, CAP’N CAPSLOCK!!! (or HollywoodJeff)

I know what you mean about being too busy to deal with nonsense, but this saved tab came up on a tab on my wife’s laptop and I would like to dispose of it.

Your post is as idiotic as expected. We all know the attack on the Liberty took place and the US accepted that it was an accident and did not react. ‘Accident’ is one explanation, not too bad. If you want to question that you need a better alternative explanation. However, neither of the reasons you provided explains anything, and in fact requires corresponding far-fetched adjustments such as President Johnson being a traitor to the United States to protect a reputation which was pretty much known to Washington and media insiders. Good enough for LaRouchies, but not for your average sane person.

Onward. You say Israel wanted to keep their takover of the Golan secret. Considering they were under artillary attack I don’t know why they would do that, but let’s say they did. Well, if Israel wanted to keep a low profile, what better way than to knowingly attack a ship belonging to your best ally in the world? Sort of like gouging your wife’s eyes out to prevent her from seeing lipstick on your collar. She wouldn’t see the lipstick but she would probably suspect you were up to something.

Ok, it was to prevent the US from knowing about a massacre of Egyptians. That doesn’t work either because there was no massacre of Egyptians, but for argument’s sake, how about massacring some Americans to distract them from the Egyptian massacre? ]Doh!

And while we’re at it, don’t pull a rookie move and just sink the damn ship and say ‘Oops’. I know, attack the ship slowly and sadistically over several hours and leave plenty of witnesses. Maybe even play some Engelbert Humperdink music over loudspeakers to torture the poor devils. We’ll just have the President command them not to talk. That’s a lot more likely than positing some Jew haters who will later command them to talk. Jew haters are pretty rare, maybe even mythical. Right?

Or maybe Israel of the Six Day War era just couldn’t get it done. Dang that Liberty was a tough old tub!

But none of this explains the attack. Usually at this point the antisemite in question realizes that the accusation is senseless, and falls back on that the Jews are just so hateful that they had to kill some Americans too get it out of their system.

Ok, it’s getting stupid already. I happen to know of an alternative explanation that does explain the attack, but unfortunately for you and your it puts not President Johnson personally but the US security establishment (and possibly including the President) in a bad light, and Israel in a good light for not exposing it. Now that would explain it. Since I am not trying to convince you but show you up I won’t go into it, except to say it was put out by John Loftus, an real ‘informed source’, a US government security insider who knows the players and locations of the bodies.

OK, we are up to the money trail. Haim Saban was 23 years old in 1967 and no millionaire. But you are nuts if you think that the entire political establishment sold its soul for seven or 12 million dollars. In Washington terms, ten million dollars is less than ten million pennies, even in 1967. It doesn’t explain Nixon’s support in 1973 either. The sob story about the poor, bewildered, clueless , disorganized antisemites helpless against the scheming Jews doesn’t wash either. Although the Jews do relatively well due to their superior culture and values, they do not by any means hold controlling political and economic interests; certainly not as a group. Check out ‘The Millionaire Next door’ on Amazon to see the real statistics about who has the wealth in this country.

I reiterate that you are no Jew. No Jew ever brings up the Liberty, and I don’t believe that you are the exception. As a Jew and Israel hater, your opinions about Zionism and Israel make no difference, but it is important to expose the lie about your sainted humanist Zionist grandfather.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/01/11 at 2:50 pm

Let’s start at the end, Phonie, with that very interesting comment that, “No Jew ever brings up the Liberty.” What you are saying is that American Jews (because that’s where and who we are)don’t give a damn about the lives of US sailors or soldiers when it Israel was responsible for their deaths and their injuries. Well, this is one Jew who has and will continue to do so because I think Israel is a blight unto the nations and that whatever was good and decent about Judaism has been poisoned by an orthodoxy and ultra-orthodoxy that is now dedicated to continuing the blood-letting that disfigures the Torah. Like an extended Manson Family if you get my meaning. You and others of your ilk, if you were born in the US, are nothing but traitors and should be treated accordingly Be assured, your sentence about no Jew speaking about the Liberty is one I will be sure to quote and remember.

As for the reasons for the attack on the Liberty, they come from books on Israeli spying, written in cooperation with Mossad, from recollections of Liberty survivors, and from James Bamford’s book on the NSA, as well as from two excellent films including one, Dead in the Water, made by the BBC.
And, yes, the Liberty was one tough old tub and given how badly it was shot up, it could have been expected to sink with the blame falling on the Egyptians. As it was, the survivors were forbidden to talk about under fear of court-martial and that came down from the president who like some others had sold his soul to the Zionist moneybags who financed the Democratic Party then and finance it now.

If you read my post you would have noticed that in speaking of Haim Saban, I wrote that he gave the money to the Democrats in 2002, 1967, all $12.3 million of it. If you think that’s nothing, please let me know who has given more to the party. By every estimation, from Israel’s critics and supporters, 60% of the Democrats money comes from wealthy Jews. That’s to insure that whoever is in the White House knows how far he can go before his Israeli counterpart tells him what he can and can not do, as Bibi did when he had poor old Obama veto the UN resolution leaving the US standing alone next to what that wonderful French minister aptly referred to as “that shitty little state.”

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/01/11 at 11:53 pm

I couldn’t resist this, Benny Boy, but it seems you are not too well thought of in the blogosphere. Here’s a wonderful comment about you posted as a comment after yours following an article in the Forward, a newspaper that I suspect you must hate. It’s from a fellow lanzmann,name of Livovich who on 12/20/09 wrote:

“Ben Plonie, you are a blabbering idiot who couldn’t write a coherent paragraph if your life depended on it.”

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/02/11 at 12:10 am

I apologize. I should have said “No Jew in my experience ever brings up he Liberty”. The reason for that is not as you say because Jews are traitors and all that but because it is one of the dumbest, crassest accusations made of Jews. Nobody disputes that the attack took place, but your crappola is all in he realm of assigning false interpretations to it. I happen to be old enough to remember the event and it certainly was strange at the time,but no stranger than a lot of the events of the war. With all due respect, I can understand if not excuse when a non-Jew suspects and accuses Jews because those things are cultural memes. Mel Gobson for example grew up with a paranoid antisemitic father. But when a Jew of any description does it, they have to be truly insane or evil. Even Jewish antisemites normally stick to things that make some sense even if they have to lie about it.

Even more important than the purported facts of the incident is the context in which you introduced it. This is a thread about a sexual assault of an American reporter in Egypt with incidental antisemitic overtones. You bring in the Liberty and 911. The purpose as I already mentioned? In light of the idiocy of the whole smear, it is to paint the Jews as generally hateful and possibly to excuse antisemites of wrongdoing in being antisemitic. Well, this is not your father’s Jew.

I just demonstrated to you how nonsensical your purported theories are. Here http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html is an extended write up on the topic, in which you will find that far from a few people covering up Israeli treachery, there would have to be a very vast conspiracy. I know that you won’t read it, but you will find detail on numerous investigations and conferences and documentation including live Israeli and American contemporary tapes and transcripts of the events. Israel had requested the US to remove any ships from the combat zone and received US assurances that it had been done. The pilots saw no flag during the attack and it took 24 minutes and not hours before the mistake was discovered. If you think all of the valorous American sailors were silenced by fear of courts martial, then you are a fool. Not everone is Nathan Hale, but there has to be at least one guy tough enough to fight for justice when it counts, not years later after getting 13 million dollars in compensation. These people were co-opted, like you. Note that attacking Jews is never an act of bravery but of cowardice.

If you are going to talk about James Bamford’s book, then you have to talk about Miami Judge Jay Cristol’s book that shows it was an accident. But even giving you Bamford’s thesis that Israel silenced the Liberty because of surveillance, you still have no reason for the US to let it go, except the entire military and security apparatus of the the US protecting the President’s affair and political contributions to the Democratic party. I.e. you can come up with a plausible reason for Israel to knowingly attack an American vessel, but you can’t come up with a plausible reason for why they would do it. cf John Loftus.

Finally, since the Liberty incident, the US military has been horribly stealth attacked in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, on the USS Cole, Lebanon, the embassies in Afica by Islamic terrorists. Now, anyone can make a mistake, but just so we know you are not insane or evil, point me to evidence of your patriotic outrage at these treachorous acts on Islamic websites. No, I am not bothering to research it. I am satisfied that you are a non-Jew, insane or evil.

Which brings me to the first last, in which some dipshh!t moron on the Forward said “Ben Plonie, you are a blabbering idiot who couldn’t write a coherent paragraph if your life depended on it.” I obviously don’t know the note of mine that was responding to, but that is the general quality of response from people who can’t engage me on a rational level. There are a couple on this site as well. I guess I can take those as compliments.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/02/11 at 7:39 am

HollyJerk, thanks for sharing your breafast with us, but we would much rather look at it before you eat it. Your heartwarming love for Jews and Israel is showing and its inspiring. You have no idea how good this would sound in German. Hey, what about them Zionist sharks?

Comment by Avi on 3/02/11 at 9:46 am

Sorry, Palonie, but your apology doesn’t cut it. You simply made a statement that I suspect would repel most Jews who don’t give their primary allegiance to Israel or to The Tribe and I have saved it in my files. You happen to be a classic case of one who does. Next time you may be more careful about what you write but I doubt it. Your accusations that the crew of the Liberty were lying, who unlike those in the government who passed judgment on the incident and declared it to have been an unfortunate accident is no different, IMLTHO, than denying the testimony of Holocaust survivors as to the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz and elsewhere. Not one whit of difference. You and the deniers have one thing in common and that is you live to hate.

As for the Jewish Virtual Library, which in many instances, offers reliable and useful information, is run by a fellow named Mitchell Bard, who formerly worked for AIPAC in still runs a separate Israel propaganda site,  Anything he would have to say on this issue I would take with a tub of salt and a side of gefilte fish.

As to the real and unquestioned reason for Israel’s attack, we may never know that, except that according to the sailors who earlier had waved at the planes as they were sunning themselves on the deck, while their ship was identified by a huge US flag, and then related that the planes that attacked had their markings, the Magen David, covered over, I can only say Res Ipsa Loquitur, which for you deficient in Latin out there, means “the thing speaks for itself.” That’s something that your equally disgusting lanzmann, Jay Cristol, just doing his job as a sayan can’t cover up

Now, since you’re still hanging in there for more punishment, let’s take at a look at the Lavon Affair. I guess you will say that the Israeli agents, most of whom were Egyptian Jews, who set off fires in the British and US film libraries in Alexandria, hoping that the blame would be upon the Egyptians (hmmm, that sounds familiar) were just some nice Jewish boys playing a Halloween prank although it wasn’t Halloween. Not even Purim.

You must be getting pretty desperate when you bring up the attack on the USS Cole or the embassy and Marine barracks bombing in Lebanon. I don’t recall that there was any exchange of love letters between those who carried out those acts and Washington as there was in the case of The Liberty, nor was there an attempt by the White House or the media to bury the attack on the Cole and the ones in Beirut.

BTW,do you have the same hunch as I do, that the USS Liberty will come back to haunt Israel and its agents in the US? Or do you hope and pray that the story will stay buried?

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/02/11 at 4:42 pm

Don’t be so literal-minded about my apology. It was just an ice-breaker. I still say that no Jew brings up the Liberty (because of its stupidity as an accusation) but I am willing to concede that in theory there may be some outside of my experience. That doesn’t mean I think there really are or that you are one of them. Your files hahaha.

My sources don’t necessarily think the crew of the Liberty are lying so much as they are uninformed and bitter. Not to say that some at least weren’t corrupted, but they were not let in on the real mission of the ship. According to one credible theory that was the reason for the surgical torpedo strike on the communications center.

The Jewish Virtual Library is responsible and documented. The references in that article are not Israeli or Zionist It is meaningless for you to try to blow it off with an ad hominem on Bard. Don’t tell me all the US investigations and reports also work for AIPAC.

No big flag, OK? No covered markings, OK? I know how cheap it is to just type stuff but it’s BS. What makes Cristol less credible than Bamford? Cristol got his information straight from the government through Freedom of Information requests. OUR government. Who the hell is Bamford and what makes him credible?

Speaking of desperate, the Lavon affair was just a nonsanctioned rogue screwup for which Israel paid plenty. More than we can say about the Bay of Pigs Invasion, which came straight from the top. What did the BOPI say about the United States and Americans? Nothing, that’s what.

As a matter of fact, the US did squat for the Cole and Kobar Towers and the Marine Barracks and the African embassies and the first World Trade Center bombing. Nobody even talks about them anymore. Israel on the other hand didn’t cover up anything at all. They immediately manned up and offered helicopter evacuations, apologies, reparations and whatever they possibly could. Bear in mind that the Liberty had no business in those waters based on fair warning and communications by Israel in the preceding days and American acknowledgement. So whether the Liberty was misbehaving or it was a plain friendly fire accident, the fault was on the American side. And the government response makes it plain that the Americans knew it.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/02/11 at 10:41 pm

At last. I was able to draw this startling admission of both your knowledge and further proof that your primary loyalty is to Israel:

“Bear in mind that the Liberty had no business in those waters based on fair warning and communications by Israel in the preceding days and American acknowledgement. So whether the Liberty was misbehaving or it was a plain friendly fire accident, the fault was on the American side. And the government response makes it plain that the Americans knew it.”

I am aware that this explanation has been promulgated for obvious reasons and I first read it in a book, “Spymasters for Israel.”

So, now, you are justifying the Israeli attack and the murder of 34 US sailors and the wounding of 171 more, the use of napalm by the Israeli Luftwaffe and their strafing of the lifeboats, while complaining that the victims, the survivors, are “uniformed and bitter.” Holocaust deniers might say the same thing about concentration camp survivors. I’ll be happy to pass your words on to the former.

As for the Lavon Affair being “rogue” operation, I guess you would classify young Shimon Peres as a “rogue” for he was up to his tuchus in it. The Israelis first called Jonathan Pollard’s treachery a “rogue” operation and indeed he was and is a rogue and justly deserving of his life sentence. Obviously, when it comes to readiness to betray the US on Israel’s behalf, you’re no better.

Comment by Hollywood Jeff on 3/03/11 at 4:36 pm

I have been reading this discussion about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, an American ship that was in international waters at the time that it was viciously attacked for over two hours by unmarked Israeli warplanes.
Having read the testimonies of the US servicemen who survived this deliberate attack I, and many others, can come to no other conclusion but that Israel knew that the ship was American and for whatever their reasons, decided to sink the ship.

I suggest that anyone who doubts the real story should read Assault on the Liberty by James Ennes who was one of the survivors or go to the web site of the Liberty survivors:
http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/
There is plenty of information out there for the doubters who want to think that the vicious attack was just a “mistake” on Israeli’s part. It was no mistake and not one Israeli official paid any price for this act of treachery against an ally, a ally who continues to fork over billions of dollars a year to the country that killed its servicemen.

The Liberty was easily recognized not only by its shape but by the fact that it flew a large American flag that that was easily seen on the bright cloudless day on which the attack took place. Survivors of the attack testified that in the morning as they sunbathed on the deck clearly marked Israeli planes overflew them at an altitude so low that they could see the pilots. Mistakenly thinking that the pilots were friends they waved to them. It wasn’t long until they discovered that the pilots were anything but friends when an assault by unmarked fighter planes and and small boats took place against the lightly defended intelligence gathering ship. Missiles and napalm ripped the ship and the large flag waving over it, all but destroyed the communications system and left 34 dead Americans and many more badly injured.  This was no accident. This was a deliberate attack but since the attacker was Israel,  the US, under the thumb of the Israeli lobby, accepted the lame and obvious false excuse that the pilots mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship - a ship that bore absolutely no resemblance to the Liberty. Now I don’t believe that Israeli pilots are dumb so there was no way that they could have mistaken one ship for another.
To his eternal discredit President Lyndon Johnson refused to send help to the Liberty. He knew who the attackers were and didn’t want to have any problems with the US Jewish community if they were to shoot down Israeli planes - as they should have.
I find it truly disgusting that there are some in this country who still want to cling to the idea that the attack was an “accident.” I’ll bet if it had been Egyptian planes that attacked the Liberty and claimed the attack to be an accident that those who refuse to believe Israel guilty of this nefarious crime would have been very quick to point the finger at Egypt.
Shame on those Americans who denigrate the lives of American servicemen when their lives are taken by Israel.

Comment by Janice on 3/03/11 at 7:27 pm

Note to Janice. I see you showed up while I was composing this response to HollywoodJeff, but you are basically not adding anything so this repsonse is for you too. I recommend you read my earlier responses as well.

Hollywoodjeff
Not at all. What was drawn was the startling admission from you that you are both a non-Jew and a Jew hater. I have been around the block on these issues with every cracker on the internet, and you are not in the top tier by any means. One thing you have all have in common is how smart you think you when you are at your dumbest. It’s an unmistakable trait, maybe cultural. Not enough Talmud study or something.

The dual loyalty accusation is moldy oldie you guys never get tired of either. It doesn’t fly anymore. Israel’s legitimacy and conduct is not perfect of course, but it is the best there is. The USA has some of that in common with Israel, which is why they are natural friends and allies in spite of reactionary antisemitic and fundamentally anti-American forces such as people like you. Absent that, the two countries are pretty much on the same page.

Now I’m going to type very slowly, so you can follow the logic.
Step 1) Israel was under attack and urgent threat of annihilation and engaged in active defensive hostilities. Israel needed to clear the field for offensive military operations and requested the US in a friendly way to move its ships out of the area. Wasn’t that nice? Nicer than the US was when Israel needed codes to attack Iraq through the no-fly zone, but that’s Israel for you.

Step 2) The USA acknowledged, agreed, and Israel had a rock-solid presumption that any ships in the war zone not its own were enemy ships and certainly not American ships.

Step 3) Accident scenario - Therefore, in the heat of battle the Liberty could have been matched up with yesterday’s description of a particular Egyptian vessel or another one. After all, friends don’t screw around with their committments and communications. Right? Don’t strain your brain; that’s what you’re accusing Israel of.

Step 4) So that if America did screw around with their committment and communication with their friend and ally and partner Israel, they would implicitl;y be agreeing to eat any losses resulting from that deception, which cannot be characterized by the slanderous term ‘murder’, you jerk.

If you still feel that Israel should still be at fault in this, just substitute Israel for America in the story and vice-versa. I don’t see you cutting Israel any slack.

Unanswered question - what exactly the hell the Liberty was doing there? Accident? We don’t like accidents. It had to have some mission. A clandestine one, in light of the first two steps. You would like to paper over this problem by saluting the flag and saying “My country, right or wrong” and accusing Israel and its supporters of disloyalty. Act like grownups, you and he Liberty crew.

Step 3)  Alternate scenario - The Liberty was on loan to the NSA, advancing some dingbat spook scheme to throw Israel under the bus for some geopolitical bullsh!t.. The crew is not informed of the mission. Israel quickly decides not to die and conducts a diversion to keep the crew away and spare their lives while launching a quick surgical torpedo strike on the communications center of the ship. No napalm in the lifeboats, 24 minutes in and out. Navy is sacrificed for the spooks.

Mind you, nobody is admitting to this, but it’s consistent with Israel taking the heat to spare the US from embarrassment at their treachery and screwup. The only thing left is for the Jew-haters to play this in an endless loop and ignore all the other attacks on us by ‘friend’ and foe. Only Israel, America’s best and most reliable friend is a murderer. Oh yeah, why did Israel do that? And why did we accept it?

And I am no fan of Shimon Peres but even if I was he could have done something stupid. And Pollard was and is a fall guy for Aldrich Ames, but we both know that you would rather blame a real Jew than a real traitor anyday.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/03/11 at 10:54 pm

Ben, I am actually enjoying it, but I am not sure why waste precious time on this piece of drek.

Comment by Avi on 3/03/11 at 11:05 pm

I am glad you are enjoying it Avi, because the vision of Hollywood Jeff flailing around in confusion is kind of satisfying. From Israeli colonialism and racism and occupation and war crimes and bulldozers and imperialism and olive tree destruction, he went to the Liberty and the Lavon affair and controlling the American government. I guess I hate to allow these accusations to stand on a Jewish website, so it is not time spent on Hollywood Jeff who will never actually engage my responses but on those he would like to mislead like Janice and that is bad for Israel and America both.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/03/11 at 11:26 pm

First, I am not accusing you of dual loyalty since I have seen no evidence whatsoever that you have any loyalty to the US. Expressing the belief that Israel and the US see eye to eye on any issue is not the same thing since you obviously demand that we accede to farshtunken Israel’s equally farshtunken criteria.

As for your Goebbelesque retelling of the 1967 war, beginning with Step One, there is not a single shred of evidence or expert opinion from any Israeli general that “Israel was under attack and urgent threat of annihilation and engaged in active defensive hostilities.” There is a Big Lie out there that continues to be told and that is that Egypt started the war. I believe it was lanzmann Leslie Gelb who just repeated that lie the other day.

The same with your Step Two: Where is your evidence that “The USA acknowledged, agreed, and Israel had a rock-solid presumption that any ships in the war zone not its own were enemy ships and certainly not American ships?” Because it was mentioned in the Spymaster book? The Israeli wehrmacht is without a doubt a successor to the Nazi version; certainly when it comes to administering “collective punishment,” it is second to none, and sadism is it’s second nature, but it certainly could tell that the Liberty was not a serious military threat nor could it fail to see the large US flag that identified it. If you and your Zionist sources deny that the ship was flying the flag, I would hope that one of the sons of those whom your beloved Israelis murdered in cold blood might have a chance to converse with you in person about that after having a few beers.

Your Step Three is equally unsustainable. You write, “in the heat of battle the Liberty could have been matched up with yesterday’s description of a particular Egyptian vessel or another one. After all, friends don’t screw around with their committments and communications.” There was no “heat of battle,” Plonie. There was no battle. The survivors reported that before the attack Israeli planes flew over the ship and the sailors, sunning themselves on the deck, could see the pilots’ faces and waved to them. The Egyptian ship that your lying Israeli friend pretended they had confused for the Liberty looked nothing like it and by the time of the attack, Egypt had been thoroughly defeated. Israel evidently didn’t want witnesses to one or more of its nefarious plots.

You ask “what exactly the hell the Liberty was doing there? Accident? We don’t like accidents. It had to have some mission. A clandestine one, in light of the first two steps. You would like to paper over this problem by saluting the flag and saying “My country, right or wrong” and accusing Israel and its supporters of disloyalty. Act like grownups, you and he Liberty crew.”

Thanks for continuing to put your foot in your mouth, Plonie and exposing your true feelings about the US.  The ship was in international waters monitoring Israel radio transmissions during a war that Israel had initiated and the US was considered a close ally of the US. Perhaps, if it had been Kennedy and not LBJ, who was totally enveloped in The Lobby and Matilda Krim’s embrace, we might have seen an Israeli air force base reduced to smithereens (even now it’s not too late!) with the corresponding number of Israeli families wailing over the loss of their loved ones. Unfortunately, the lesson learned was that Israel can get away with murder and now the country is like a mad dog (the way that Dayan wanted it to be viewed) but we do know what eventually happens to a mad dog, don’t we?

Bringing it up to 9/11, Americans might ask, if they had been informed about it, “what the hell were Mossad agents doing running a phony moving company in New Jersey?” One answer might be, the better to transport explosives into the basement of the World Trade Center. But you tell me.

Your second Step Three (forgotten how to count? It should actually be Five) is a dingbat scenario that sounds right out of a Hollywood, no a settler scenario, and you have the friggin’ nerve to accuse the US of treachery?

BTW, did you ever imagine you would become a poster boy for the real “Anti-Semites?”

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/04/11 at 12:19 am

Hold on there, HJ, I still have something for Avi. I ‘ll read your a bit later.

One more thing, Avi. I gave you a general answer but this morning it occurred to me that I meant to express something in addition. You and I both asked HJ what his posts have to do with the the astisemitic overtones of Logan’s assualt in Egypt, and received no answer. He can’t give us one and keeps changing the subject because his purpose is otherwise and he may or may not even be aware. I am however a big picture kinda guy. The following may be a diversion but in honor of the upcoming Passover your question triggered the reflection in me.

For classically educated Jews these things are a no-brainer, but even if you don’t accept that you can follow and connect the dots. The underlying purpose of people like HJ is to demonstrate that the Hebrews, Israelites, Pharisees, Zealots, Rabbis, Jews, Israel, Zionists, Settlers etc. of all time and by every possible name are just as the antisemites portray them; wicked, crafty, treacherous, greedy; therefore all antisemitism is justified because they deserve it as a class for something one of them once did even if not today. Even imaginary offences. This has been going on since the beginning of history; just as Cain and Ishamael and Esau had their displacement hang-ups, so did this continue and greatly accelerate when the early Church and Muhammad had their self-images threatened by the resistance and even continued existence of the Jews.  and see a constant effort by non-Jews to destroy us and literally create a man-made chosen people or at least clone our strengths. From the Byzantines to the Islamic conquests to the Crusades to to the Inquisition to Martin Luther’s quest for original authenticity to the pogroms to the philosophes of the Enlightenment to the French Revolution to Napoleon to Czar Nicholas to the Nazis to the Palestinians experiment to Hamas and Hezbollah to the Iranians today, just to hit a few high spots, the background radiation behind them all is their stance toward the Jews - few and weak and unarmed and innocuous and productive and law abiding and eternal - and their presumption to usurp the Jewish place in history.

Every event I described produced a stream of strange and defective and deficient ideologies and cultures which inevitably lead to back to another campaign to destroy the Jews. I often ask antisemites, if they have such confidence in their positions, why can’t they just ignore us. Think of that great expression on Elchanan Even-Chen’s face on Latma TV as he repeatedly asks this question.

So it’s never about the reality of us. It’s about somebody’s idea of us. People like HJ have most often hardly ever met a Jew in their lives, but they are have a need to justify their own and their father’s evil legacy. That’s why. And this generation of Jews doesn’t have to accept it anymore.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/04/11 at 8:32 am

Ben, this is not a genuine debate. Holly Jerk is not looking for the truth. He uses this platform to spew his Anti-Semitic vomit with the help of some people like Jane.  Why waste any time? As you correctly noted, HollyJerk’s strategy is to take you on an endless chase over every bonnie trail he can possibly find. Every reference you bring, he immediately shoots as unauthentic, whereas his own he never questions. He lost me a long time ago with his 9-11 conspiracy, even when I tell him I personally know one of the youngsters in group (His association with this group cost him his ability to obtain a green card despite being married to an American, and he eventually had to return to Israel in 2009).

Comment by Avi on 3/04/11 at 9:44 am

Avi, I realize what you are gently telling Plonie is to chill out, that his continuing attacks on me in a futile attempt to counter my responses are doing neither him nor the Zionist cause any good. Since I consider Zionism to be a mental illness, it is questionable whether Plonie will accept your advice since your fellow Zionists viscerally hate to give anti-Zionists such as myself, the last word.

It should be quite obvious by now that a number of his comments are of the kind that Plonie’s moral kin, David Duke, uses to push his own racist agenda which, ironically, is the mirror reflection of the Zionist variety.

As for your acquaintance with “one of the youngsters in [the] group” that was arrested and imprisoned for its suspicious behavior at the time of the WTC attack, that is, laughing while filming the burning building, there may be no evidence that he was a member of Mossad but there is no argument that those who were arrested were not agents, nor has there been any denial that the phony moving company, Urban Movers, was also a Zionist front. So it goes. Now let’s see if Plonie, who has a far more advanced and dangerous case of Zionitis than you, takes your sage advice.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/04/11 at 8:26 pm

Hey Ben, read this: “In Egypt’s Tahrir Square, women attacked at rally on International Women’s Day” http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/0308/In-Egypt-s-Tahrir-Square-women-attacked-at-rally-on-International-Women-s-Day

HollyJerk will argue that these opressed off-white skinned people should be forgiven after the pain inflicted on them under the ruling of Joseph ben Jacob, another Zionist who lived in Goshen.

Comment by Avi on 3/08/11 at 6:04 pm

Yeah, it was pretty ugly. They showed it on Al Jazeera. Who knows, these may have been the same creeps went after poor Sarah. But if you know any secular Jewish woman who has tried to walk through Mea Shearim, head uncovered, in a t-shirt and shorts, you will a see a Jewish version of the same ugliness. Yeah, I know. Any woman who would try and do that would have to be nuts or asking for abuse? Right, all you machos, out there? A word from the wise HJ: clean up your own act. And you really don’t want to get me into quoting some of Israel’s rabid Hassidic rabbis, now do you?

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/08/11 at 10:50 pm

Dear Jeff, as one who is on the same political side as you are , at this point your Nazi-like propaganda embarrasses me and bothers me. The Haredim are a problem indeed and I am not their fan. But can you name any incident when a woman was physically or sexually assaulted in Mea Shearim?

Tamar Hasson, Ramat Hsharon, Israel

Comment by Tami Hasson on 3/09/11 at 8:28 am

Tamar, it might not be very comforting for you to see the nuts who are your bedfellow for what they really are. I think his drivel is more “nutsy” than Nazi, but anyway, one might expect to see more respect and affability coming out of him toward the Haredim, a group which matches his level of revulsion toward Israel and other Jews.

Comment by Avi on 3/09/11 at 9:52 am

Tamar, it doesn’t sound your accusation that I am spewing “Nazi-like propaganda” that we are on the same political side although I do have friends in Israel who do share my opinions of their country. That is a rather heavy charge and one that has eluded me to this point in my life and one which I consider an unwarranted insult. There is a term, “Judeo-Nazi” that was reportedly coined by the late religious scholar, Schau Leibowitz, to describe Israeli Jews of a certain mindset that he observed in the period after the 1967 war.

In any case, I would appreciate you finding in any of my posts here any comment that could most remotely be considered “Nazi propaganda.”

As for women being physically assaulted in Mea Shearim, it’s not exactly a place where I’ve hung out, but over the years there have been reports of assaults on what were considered “underdressed” women, but they were not sexual attacks. I only brought mention the Hassids or Haredim because of the implication in Avi’s post that all women are subject to attack in Arab countries.

And thanks for coming to my defense, Avi. From what I saw of the relations between the Haredim and the rest of the Israeli populations, the only thing that keeps them from going at each others throats are the Palestinians. Note: check out the origins of Channukah.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 3/09/11 at 6:46 pm

I think that there is a subtext in this debate that readers and writers here should be aware of: the idea of “the negation of the Diaspora”. This is a long-standing Zionist doctrine that still has credibility—the view that traditional Judaism is no longer viable, and it will be replaced gradually but steadily by the nationalist Judaism that prevails in the Jewish state.  We see this replacement in the shifting of Jewish attitudes in the Diaspora—from its formerly-prevailing anti-Zionism to the pro-Zionism that currently prevails among Diaspora Jews.
  Anti-Zionist Jews in the Diaspora have long been diminishing in numbers through intermarriage and subsequently not raising Jewish children; if they are among the minority of intermarried Diaspora Jews who raise their children as Jews, these children will also be mostly anti-Zionist and it is quite unlikely that such children will raise a next generation of Diaspora Jews. In other words, Diaspora Jewish anti-Zionism is facing extinction. 
  I do not say whether this is good or bad, but that it is an observable fact. One can also observe that the Jews of Latin American and South African origin are already preponderantly pro-Zionist, even those who live in the US.  Of course, the hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews living outside of Israel (in the U.S., for example) are also predominantly pro-Israel, even if they don’t think of themselves as “Zionist”.
  So the debate between the pro-Zionists and the anti-Zionists we see here will be settled not by the force of argument but by the inexorable processes of history and demographic evolution.

Comment by reflective observer on 3/28/11 at 4:56 pm

I fail to see how that analysis has the slightest applicability either to the topic of the thread nor to any of the intermediate discussions or digressions within it. That would be true even if it was corect.

Comment by Ben Plonie on 3/28/11 at 9:08 pm

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