Opinion

September 6, 2011

Opinion: How did this happen to America?

By Marty Kaplan

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It was while I was explaining to an Australian student that Rupert Murdoch was the reason America had gone batty that I realized how inadequate my answer to his question was.

“How did this happen to America?”  I was in Australia just after the debt-ceiling debacle, and by “this” the student meant the highchair spoon-banging in Washington that had nearly caused a world financial tailspin. 

As we talked, I saw that “this” also meant other jaw-dropping news that had reached them down under – like the near-unanimity among Republican presidential candidates that global warming is a hoax; the Gallup finding that 40 percent of Americans believe “God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years”; the Tea Party signs saying “Keep Your Government Hands Off My Medicare”; the surging number of American children living in poverty; the gap between the rich and the rest growing so extreme that the U.S. is now the 42nd most unequal country in the world, below Cameroon and the Ivory Coast, and only just above Uganda and Jamaica. 

During the three weeks I traveled in Australia, I was often asked, with genuine bafflement and considerable sympathy, how the world’s greatest nation had become captive to a band of ideologues and fundamentalists, how the American dream – a beacon to people everywhere – had become so powerless to deliver on its promise of opportunity for all.  From kids in the classroom, from journalists and executives, from people on the boat to the reef and in the van to the rain forest: virtually everyone wanted to know what caused America to take such a sharp wrong turn.

So I gave them my usual answers.

Our political system has become the problem, not the solution.  Our Founders could not have known that campaigning and governing would turn out to be all about ads, and the money required to pay for them, and the special interests tapped for that cash, and the quid pro quos inherent in those transactions, not to mention the profits raked in by the TV stations that get free licenses to use the public’s broadcast spectrum because they promise to serve the public interest. 

The profit to be made from monetizing attention has transformed our republic from one where education was declared the bedrock of democracy, to one where entertainment has pretty much swallowed up every other domain, including news, which has abandoned its obligation to sort through competing claims (“we’ll have to leave it there”), replacing journalism with propaganda and civic discourse with food fights. 

But as I went on in this vein, I realized that my account was missing something, and it took a taxi driver to show me what it was.  Yes, I know that The Taxi Driver is straight out of Cliché Central – the character who conveniently supplies an apt quote making a point that a columnist would prefer to attribute to some salt-of-the-earth guy instead of himself.  So I don’t expect you to believe me when I tell you what happened.  But it’s true; you just can’t make up stuff like this.

I had just finished speaking in a class on media and politics at the United States Studies Centre on the University of Sidney campus.  I’d wrestled with the question of how America had reached this dispiriting moment.  And then I went out to City Road and hailed a cab. 

Usually I’m not much of a talker in taxis.  But the driver, an Australian who looked to be in his early thirties, asked me if I’d been doing something at the university, and I told him about the class – not in detail, but enough to indicate that America’s predicament in the time of the Tea Party and the climate-change deniers had been on the table.

For a bit, we rode in silence.  Then he said, “Do you happen to know of a fellow named Noam Chomsky?” 

“Yes, I do,” I said, trying to conceal my astonishment. 

“By any chance,” he asked, “are you familiar with his concept of ‘spectator democracy’?”

Once I got past the out-of-body experience of having this particular conversation with my taxi driver at this particular moment, we talked about “spectator democracy” as he drove across Sydney.  Now I suppose it’s hopeless to discuss anything Chomsky ever said without first taking a stand on whether he’s anti-Semitic, so I’ll stipulate that whatever you think about that, you’re right, and that (but that) it’s (still) very much worth engaging with his take on history.

Framed approvingly by Walter Lippmann in the early 20th century, “spectator democracy” is the idea that the U.S. public is a “bewildered herd” that needs to be benevolently directed, manipulated and controlled by elites with the tools of propaganda and disinformation.  As they consume content about politics, people gain the (false) impression that they’re actively participating in democracy – that they’re empowered, not bludgeoned, by the media.

What Chomsky adds is that spectator democracy is now on steroids not because of technology, or because the media industry has figured out how to make a tidy profit from political spectacle.  It’s because more than ever before, the functioning of the American economy requires distracting the herd from the immensity of corporate power.

Fox News doesn’t rile the Republican base because Karl Rove tells Roger Ailes what to do.  It does it because the investment banks and the war industry and Rupert Murdoch and the Koch brothers and the rest of the oligarchs need to divert the public’s attention away from their economic power, their ownership of the political system, their plunder of public resources. 

How did this happen to America? is the wrong question.  After decades of corporate triumphalism, which has put wealth in fewer hands than ever before, and after generations of government being so demonized and compromised that it is no longer capable of checking that power, the better question may be: How could it not have happened?

Marty Kaplan is the Norman Lear chair in entertainment, media and society at the USC Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism.  Reach him at martyk@jewishjournal.com.

A version of this article appeared in print.

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I challenge you remaining climate blame believers to at least ACT like this the comet hit of an emergency the “scientists” said it was. March, cry, yell, run, walk. Do something to show us you fear mongers really believe in this coming CO2 crisis. Until then, we don’t believe you or your thousands of scientists who refuse to march in the streets and ACT like the crisis is real.
Just what does have to happen to prove we former believers are correct?

Comment by mememine69 on 9/06/11 at 10:18 am

Marty my sweetheart liberal, the professor who ponders why, oh why government being so “demonized and compromised”. Please, Marty, google: “Investigators Probe White House Role in Massive Energy Loan”. This may give you a hint why Big Gov is a problem just like Big Biz

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 11:50 am

Congratulations to both previous commenters (mememine69 and Mini) for so gloriously missing Marty’s point and so brilliantly making & confirming it for him at the same time. Way to stay distracted, kids!

Comment by Yiftach on 9/06/11 at 2:53 pm

So Marty thinks that Chomsky’s desire for a Fuhrer worth discussing. Of course the Nazis been there, done that.

Yes some became wealthy like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Spielberg and others whose products all buy. So what? We’re all better off with their products.  Hoorah.

BTW did anyone notice the word ‘Jewish’ in the article? Why is it here in JJ and not in the Journal of the Democratic Party?

SUISSA ARE YOU THERE? YOUR JJ PROMOTES A PRODUCT FOR FREE… THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.  HOWZABOUT EQUAL FREE INK FOR THE RJC?  IN THE INTEREST OF JUSTICE.

Comment by Abbushuki on 9/06/11 at 2:56 pm

when we decided to let down our walls in favor of a global economy instead of safeguarding our own…that was the beginning of our slide. Union workers were paid wages global competition could not support. From a manufacturing super power, we became an ordinary nation among ordinary nations stressing service rather than pursuing new areas of endeavor. We never mobilized our country after 9/‘11 to fight the islamization of the world.

Comment by Shelseth on 9/06/11 at 3:00 pm

The Democrats and the Republicans share the responsibility for our predicament.  For every Koch, there is a Soros.  For every Fox News there is an MSNBC.  The Democrats have just as much responsibility as the Republicans.  Your weekly whining about Republicans is becoming very tiresome.  We need to clean up the entire government.  The problem with American is that everyoned has become a victim and no one wants to take responsibility for who they are and what they do.

Comment by Michael Waterman on 9/06/11 at 3:00 pm

The usual leftist rubbish from the JJ. How can anyone discuss the deterioration of America without once using the word Obama?

Comment by Davidka on 9/06/11 at 3:10 pm

To Michael Waterman,
we need to clean up big business.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 9/06/11 at 3:12 pm

Only private enterprise is capable of sustaining a society dedicated to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Comment by SpecialKinNJ on 9/06/11 at 3:13 pm

Marty’s Views Personify’s the view of a Leftist, Socialist Jew and I think he believes all other Jews believes as he does which they don’t! There are many Jews like myself believe in a capitalistic American and not a share the wealth society. Its so sad to know there are many people like Marty teaching poison to young students in our University’s and colleges.  Is it a wonder why our country is in such pathetic shape today.

Comment by Jerry Robinson on 9/06/11 at 3:22 pm

Is it true that this administration closed the GM and Chrysler dealerships that supported the RNC and kept the ones open that supported the DNC? True or false. I rest my case. David Suissa struck out and was unimpressive when he spoke at he YINBH recently.

Comment by William Brenner on 9/06/11 at 3:39 pm

Once again JJ and Kaplan:  Pour on cup hot water, instant bubkus.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/06/11 at 3:47 pm

Marty, you are part of the problem with your entertainment power. The TEA PARTY is the real America. The unions and far out liberals are destroying the grass-roots of the founders. I made my million before there were so many regulations. We have disenfranchised the entrepreneurs who made this country great with regulations. I could never start a small business today. The entertainers and sports stars are the new rich today, IMHO.

Comment by Rich Mann on 9/06/11 at 4:30 pm

Yiftach—-

All of these posters will miss the point because they want to.

It gives them comfort.

We don’t have to mention Obama when we need to find out what went wrong with Reagan and George W Bush and their cronies in big business and big oil.

The puerile conversation here is a testament that people don’t think any more…the react to the nonsense fed to them.  I am not a fan of CHomsky, but they prove his pint.

Marty—

Thanks you for the nutshell.  Your voice is needed.

Comment by The Logician on 9/06/11 at 4:54 pm

Even though I consider myself as a centrist, the article is right on!  If someone claims it is democratically-slanted, so be it! At least democrats generally do not resort to expressing their view on Rush Limbaugh -like yelling radio stations, that whip their listeners into emotional frenzy about the opposing party.  They simply prefer a reasoned discussion and scientific proof.  And yes, the present day America is one of the least informed, and most polarized countries, both economically and ideologically (thanks, mainly, to the adherents of “pure” capitalism).  The concept of Scandinavian democracies is much more appealing to me.

Comment by Michael Feygin on 9/06/11 at 4:55 pm

Feygin, you are a centrist. No doubt about it. Logician… ah never mind. You’re hopeless

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 5:33 pm

In an earlier email response to David Suissa’s last article I raised the issue of the JJ being no more than a Trojan horse for thefar left. Here is another example.

Comment by Avi on 9/06/11 at 5:38 pm

Dear Michael Feygin: Go live is Sweden or Finland, try to start a company, and report back to me. Or just live there if you are a Jew and see how you like it.

Comment by Rich Mann on 9/06/11 at 6:26 pm

For your information, I founded a successful high- technology company and took it public in 1997.  At its peak my company employed 120 people.  So, I live capitalism and not simply talk about it.  I believe in smart government and not the BIG one and am confident that it is possible to create.  Otherwise, I would not have emigrated to the US from Russia.  I think that lack of education and a wide gap between rich and poor is a dangerous condition that we must confront as a country. This is what the article in question has addressed.

Comment by Michael Feygin on 9/06/11 at 6:41 pm

A lefty is a lefty and clothing yourself in “professorial” robes doesn’t change your slanted illogical unbalanced approach . Bias is bias and Obama ” let’s blame everything bad on Bush”  is still what it is , amateurish approach to an adult responsibility at beast . Grow up Marty the lefty wagon has left the station . I used to be on it until I realised that instead of blaming others always , I best start looking for ways to startup correct matters . It’s not always the dreaded “tea part” or whatever other boogyman you attempt to stur up . Next thing you know who it will be if not already blamed . Them Joos . Ops , there it is again .

Comment by Bernhardt on 9/06/11 at 7:02 pm

“I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion
as in America.”

Alexis de Tocqueville

Comment by wm. goldstein on 9/06/11 at 9:20 pm

Mr. Feygin, with all due respect, given your background I expect more of you. You say “small government”—you and Marty are on the opposite sides. “Smart government”? Can an organization which is facing competition, where screw ups do not end in failures,where offices are being awarded for political connection can be “smart”? Is this your business model? This model is a recipe for retardation, though don’t get me wrong: I recognize the need for a limited government.

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 9:33 pm

Of course I meant to say “an organization which DOES NOT face competition… [such as government]...

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 9:35 pm

One more thing for Mr. Feygin,show me how many other places in the world can pride themselves with so many immigrants founding successful businesses and take them public? You think there is something unique about America, and if yes, what in your opinion is the reason for it?

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 9:39 pm

Feygin, regarding education, the fact is that poor, 1’st generation, Asian kids grow up in this country and fill up our universities. Same for Russian kids in Israel. (Israeli joke: How do you find Vlad? Answer: You wait until lunch time, the one who is working is Vlad.) This has little to do with government, but everything to do with hard work and motivation.

Comment by Mini on 9/06/11 at 9:45 pm

The problem is that a republic, which is a representative democracy, is vulnerable to total corruption, as seen with the US governments. The only real democracy that works adn is almost uncorruptable is a direct democracy.

Until the internet, a direct democracy was not feasable with such a large population, but now, using software similar to Yahoo Groups, all goverenments, local, state and federal, can be governed directly by the people.

Problems can be discussed and solved and voted on, online, by every citizen. All documents can be made available online and the online government sites of these direct democracies can be very secure.

Anyone interested?

Comment by minuteman on 9/06/11 at 10:11 pm

MinMan, how profound! Now I will be able to vote myself more money. I can even hire people to vote for my proposal. And how exactly we are going to ensure one vote to one person? And…? MiMan, please tell us where did you see such a model at work?

Comment by Truth Teller on 9/06/11 at 10:29 pm

The essence of Marty’s article is DIVERSION. politics in America has become a diversion for people to forget about the special interests and lobbyists who control them day to day. /// mainstream media must fight lobbyists, like cnn has been fighting the human traffic issue lately. a true and sustained campaign is the answer.// conservatives on tv generally mistake cunning for intelligence. mercenary argutainment should be speared with concise analysis.

Comment by justin king on 9/06/11 at 10:38 pm

Books pertaining to Marty’s article:  WINNER TAKE ALL POLITICS - jacob hacker,  ECHO CHAMBER -kathleen jamieson, THE TRUE BELIEVER -eric hoffer, BLOWING SMOKE -michael wolraich, FAIR AND BALANCED,MY ASS -joseph amann, IDIOT AMERICA -charles pierce, WHY WE HATE US -dick meyer.

Comment by justin king on 9/06/11 at 10:47 pm

Marty Kaplan again lives down to his reputation. Quoting his hero Chomsky bewailing “the immensity of corporate power” Kaplan adds “corporate triumphalism”  the villian poisoning America. Missing fact that small business the greatest employer in the U.S. while Walmart employs 2.1 million-worldwide. Our federal government hosts 2.65 mil paper-pushers and growing. Never a peep from the reliable Kaplan about a government and its shadow elite stealing our American heritage. Kaplan’s conversation with his “Sidney” (sic) cabby says it all, a metaphor for his Whiz-dumb on all counts, including the proper spelling his host’s city. Kudo’s Marty!
Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 9/07/11 at 5:59 am

The observation about spectator democracy is a very astute one, and Dr. Kaplan is right to raise it again here. I appreciate very much the reference to Tocqueville, and I’d like to add Christopher Lasch’s last book “The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy.” Yes, the mindless character of American culture is the general background, but there is also a deliberate campaign, underway since the 80s, to distort public discourse toward the inane.

Comment by DrMarkMI on 9/07/11 at 8:52 am

As Jews we can recall Moses who received his 10 commandments from god.  If the god’s idea was that human society must live in “free for all” unregulated competition this would not happen.  I believe that government’s main job is to establish rules or the game (commandments) and to enforce them.  If the government is just a problem, we must be ready to give up on a civilized society, defining and refining its laws and regulations through a discourse that we are having now.  For example, I want to be protected by the government from Madoff and other “white” criminals.  Getting the government out of the way is like deciding for a body to live without a brain.

Comment by Michael Feygin on 9/07/11 at 10:26 am

The govt can no more protect one from a Madoff then the govt can protect investors from their own greed. When someone appeals to thar greed,its best to walk away no matter the inticement.
HAVE SOME COMMON SENSE.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/07/11 at 10:48 am

truthteller or is it bank teller?

Pessemism is failure without any effort.

the identification of citizens are the same as during elections. both use computer systems and both are successful.

This form of government can begin as a parallel government where discussions and votes on issues can effect the actions of the present government. If every person taking part in this government was to donate $1 a month, there wouyld be enough operating capital to hire an attorney to represent the people. Do the math!

The big problem is not pessemists like you, but the lazy people who really do not want to get involved and rather keep with a government they know and not something they do not know.

Comment by minuteman on 9/07/11 at 11:25 am

continued

I gave a talk to a group, back in 92. I told them it didn’t matter who was elected as the mass consciousness (including the unconsciousness) would control the government leaders.
The majority of people throughout the world were raised by tyrants and lived under a fascist government home where they had little say over their lives and their parents lied to them, just like our government does, with the same excuse, that it was for their own good.

People create the same environment they were raised in, both individually and in mass. Hence a fascist democracy/USA.

Comment by minuteman on 9/07/11 at 11:32 am

Honey Bee darling, you summed it up in two sentences. Yours is the best in this page. Kol HaKavod!

Comment by Mini on 9/07/11 at 2:17 pm

MinuteMan, your “bank teller” humor matches your level of wisdom.

Comment by Mini on 9/07/11 at 2:20 pm

I agree with you minuteman althogh you blaze a convouted verbel trail. No could ever throw a rope on me.  I was even exprelled from Sat. school for advocation violence in responce to an Anti-simetic remark.  so Mini what does Kol Hakavod mean?

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/07/11 at 2:36 pm

Feygin,you are not doing yourself much favor by showing your lack of knowledge of Moses’ social order. Read Exodus 18. Moses gov model is far from yours. Also, read Judges, 1’st Samuel and Pirkei Avot 1 & 2.  A little more prudent before invoking the name of God is advisable, but I am already getting way out of my realm.

Comment by Mini on 9/07/11 at 2:38 pm

I nave listen to the Torah and no where does Moses mention the USA or the Democratic party.  I believe his precepts are an individual responsibility. Mini if you like beef fill your freezer now! prices may sky=rocket after this year shipping season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

de

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/07/11 at 2:53 pm

HonBee, I am not going to be easy on you sweetheart. Try Google…

Comment by Mini on 9/07/11 at 3:26 pm

mini, it was not meant to be funny. It was a comment about his (and most people’s) importance with money. It is understandable since there is one phrase that jsut about everyone hears, “you need money to live”. the subconscious sees this statement as, “If you don’t have money, you will die.” Anytime the subconscious sees a threat of death, like any money issues, it takes over control. More people have murdered and commited violent crimes due to this one statement than any other cause. More heart attacks have been caused by it also as it causes massive stress.

I know, I have studied the subconscious for 30 years and am an expert on it.

Comment by minuteman on 9/07/11 at 3:26 pm

Mina:  I foumd “Hebrew for Dummies”, and translated Kol-Hakavod in to Texan, thank-you kindly.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/08/11 at 8:13 am

How dumb that anyone would ask Kaplan a question.  It’s all America’s fault.  What else would Kaplan say or think.  Also, what did Kaplan ever say about that fellow leftist creep who said on 9/11/01 that 3,000 Eichmans died.  Marty’s good friend I presume.

Comment by Earl on 9/08/11 at 6:34 pm

I hope everyone reads the latest column from Dennis Prager at his website:  www.dennisprager.com (click on columns) about the FOOLS who are the Congressional Black Caucus ( who claim to be the “Conscience” of Congress.  B.S.

Comment by Daveed on 9/08/11 at 7:08 pm

Way to go Mr. Againster.  Your the Man!!!!Right on.

Comment by Bill on 9/08/11 at 7:10 pm

Hey Kaplan. Stop blaming conservatives unfairly for all the problems you Lib Dems have inflicted on US the past 2 years. For one thing, it’s US Postmaster Pat Donahoe(an Obama appointee and not a Tea-Partier) who is proposing to lay-off 120,000(20%)of all Postal employees because we can not afford the mega$$$ and benefits paid to them anymore. And we are soon to loose Sat. deliveries.  Who’s fault Marty?  Those evil conservatives or too generous benefits that Dems and Unions have given nearly bankrupting this Country.?

Comment by Rich on 9/10/11 at 3:36 pm

Hey Rich, stop blaming anyone but obstructionist Republicans for not fixing in two years what Georg W. Bush screwed up in eight years of favoring big business and the rich, providing tax cuts while himself running up huge deficits.

We will be recovering for generations what your Reagan cronies have brought to this country…economic and moral disaster.

Water-boarding anyone?  It’s fun and not torture?

Climate change a hoax like evolution?

Where does it end, Rich?

Comment by The Logician on 9/10/11 at 7:08 pm

The reason conservative media (FOX) has such high ratings is you can never go broke pandering to the lowest common denominator-i.e. jersey shore, american idol.// mercenary kneejerk ideologues like sean hannity and ann coulter are making big $$ now, but will eventually reap what they sow in one way or another.// the real way to combat all of this idiocy is to use organizations such as the DNC to make a SUSTAINED effort of common sense education during this election cycle.// read WINNER TAKE ALL POLITICS -jacob hacker,  to fully understand the strategies involved.

Comment by justin king on 9/10/11 at 10:39 pm

Logi and Justin King: Go on, go on. How sweet is the sound of desperate liberals who know their days in power are numbered. See you in November 2012.Your hero Obama will write another book on himself, will make speeches for $200k a pup, and you will remain the same losers.

Comment by King Kong on 9/10/11 at 11:14 pm

Logi Darling, your president spends money in a way which puts drunken sailors to shame. You worry about water boarding? You think Obama’s rendition program is a summer camp? With his drones is a killing machine. Go figure.

Comment by King Kong on 9/10/11 at 11:17 pm

PROBABILITY
Politics is the name of a club, made up of those wanting to rule the world and make the workers of the USA and the world, worker bees or slaves. Hence, it doesn’t matter who is elected or what party is in power. They all have the same agenda.

Money is power, so take the money from the populace and it takes away their power.

The vote is worthless. People need to get involved in government, but they are not interested. They will perk up their interest when the US enters the second american revolution, like Egypt and Libya.

Comment by PERM on 9/11/11 at 12:14 am

PERM—

But before you slash your wrists from despair or hatred, read Obama’s “Dream’s Of My Father.”  It is too sincere to be fake.  He has not shown enough courage to fight the regressive Right, to build an impossible consensus.

His desire for power was to serve, not to enrich big oil and big business like the Republicans of the recent past.

The vote is worthless as long as the people are uneducated and don’t know to demand more. 

New ideas, not old complaints are needed.

Look at King Kong above…a depserate hate slinging knitwit.  His lack of thoughtfulness and objectivity are your enemy, just as much as Rick Perry and Mitch McConnell.

Comment by The Logician on 9/11/11 at 9:16 am

Logi bless your soul. It is true Obama is going against American oil companies, thereby driving a massive transfer of wealth to our friends in the Middle East. But anyway, those of us who advocate a smaller government and empowering individuals welcome your skepticism of government.

Comment by Mini on 9/11/11 at 10:21 am

However, if at least you would be objective. Logi, sweetheart, ever heard of Solyndra, where your Dear Leader buried $535 mil of our money? Ever heard why the FBI is raiding their offices and the homes of their execs? Where is your outrage? And dear leader wrote 2 books about himself, did he contribute the proceeds to charity? Logi, where is your skepticism about O’s book? When I read your stuff I can see how ideology and hate of people with different views can blind a mob to the point they will follow even crazy men with little black moustache. And have a sweet week.

Comment by Mini on 9/11/11 at 10:22 am

BILL,

You are one smart guy!

Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 9/11/11 at 10:34 am

logician

Just because you have some belief in this country does not make it true. Just like the Judio-christian-moslem god tha is supposedly unconditionally loving, yet is a tyrant and a terrorist, threatening its subjects with punishments of torture for all eternity. A god that supposedly created everything (including the antichrist) yet cannot destroy the antichrist.

Don’t feel bad as you are in similar company. Lots of opportunistic morons like you prowl the pages of JJ, wanting to hurt those with a higher IQ.

Comment by PERM on 9/11/11 at 11:27 am

PERM, where have you been hiding all this time? Welcome aboard, friend. G0d bless.

Comment by King Kong on 9/11/11 at 12:00 pm

Evolution ended with Logi and Justin, or did it begin with them, I get so furblungent.  Just s stupid lil’ol cowgirl I guess.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/11/11 at 1:30 pm

Religious lunacy in the u.s. is certainly nothing new. pilgims and other nut cases escaping the u.k.started america and it is simply lingering on.// fortunately, quicker and better communications and time itself will eventually win out and sanity will grow as religious extremism goes the way of the DINOSAURS.// But it will be a hard slog because the idiots stick together as many of the comments above clearly show.  the comment section is for appraisal of marty’s essay, not a morons smarmalong. this section is for political discourse, not a chat room.

Comment by justin king on 9/11/11 at 10:34 pm

Dear Justin Your are so RIGHT! WE, the USA ,should be more like those godless contries, the Soviet Union,Nazi Germany,Pol Pot’s Cambodia.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/12/11 at 8:56 am

PERM, can you support/refrence your arguments?

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 11:37 am

I did the research years ago, after an old man in town, a christian from Hungary, told me that the reason the christians were exterminating the Jews was because they were afraid they would take over control of Europe. Yes, it was christians that were nazis, the SS, gestapo and built and ran the death camps. AND SUPPORTED THE COLLECTION AND TRANSPORTATION OF THE JEWS. Yes, there were some christians that opposed it, but many of them died in the death camps.

ONLY CHRISTIANS WERE NAZIS!

NO, HITLER WAS NOT A JEW as christians would like us to beleive.

So, if you want to know it, do the research. google “adolf hitler the catholic”.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 11:48 am

PERM:  No, not only Christians were Nazis. Though Germany was Protestant and Catholic, Nazism was pot-Christian. There were Nazi sympathizers among Muslims, and Catholics, and atheists, and yes, even among a few Jews. Some argue Hitler had Jewish roots.  Some say the same about Stalin, and it is a known fact that many of Stalin’s worst henchmen were Jews. The issue is whether Nazism used Christian ideology or not. Your answer is disappointing and slanderous

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 1:07 pm

In fact Hitler had a general covert plan, even before the Nazis’ rise to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich which was to be accomplished through control and subversion of the churches and to be completed after the war

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 1:08 pm

(Source: Wiki)  Scholar of fascism, Stanley Payne notes that fundamental to fascism was the foundation of a purely materialistic “civic religion” that would “displace preceding structures of belief and relegate supernatural religion to a secondary role, or to none at all”, and that “though there were specific examples of religious or would-be ‘Christian fascists,’ fascism presupposed a post-Christian, post-religious, secular, and immanent frame of reference.”

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 1:08 pm

One theory is that religion and fascism could never have a lasting connection because both are a “holistic weltanschauung” claiming the whole of the person. Along these lines, Yale political scientist, Juan Linz and others have noted that secularization had created a void which could be filled by a total ideology, making totalitarianism possible and Roger Griffin has characterized fascism as a type of anti-religious political religion.

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 1:09 pm

Some historians see the Nazi movement and Adolf Hitler as fundamentally hostile to Christianity, though not irreligious. In the first chapter of The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, historian John S. Conway elaborates that Christian Churches in Germany had lost their appeal in the time of the Weimar Republic, and that Hitler offered “what appeared to be a vital secular faith in place of the discredited creeds of Christianity.”

Comment by Mini on 9/12/11 at 1:12 pm

MINI

Do the math!!! the majority of people in Germany were christian (mostly lutheran). Hence nazis. BFD that some christians wanting to make it sound like there were no christian nazis, say that jews were christians. Same christians that want people to beleive hitler was a jew.

Christians never ever apologized or even felt shame for creating nazism or that all nazis were christians or the murder of 6+ million innocent people. Since christians haven’t, it is obvious that modern day christians still support antisemitism and the extermination of all jews.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 1:17 pm

MINI

Nazis are terrorists, yet the US gov never outlawed nazis in the US because they are christians. peace loving moslems, in this country, on the other hand, have been the target of false imprisonment by the same christians in the US government.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 1:18 pm

CORRECTION

Do the math!!! the majority of people in Germany were christian (mostly lutheran). Hence nazis. BFD that some christians wanting to make it sound like there were no christian nazis, and say that jews were nazis. Same christians that want people to beleive hitler was a jew.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 1:20 pm

It is important to distinguish Christians and not put them all in one basket, just as not all who claim to be Jewish support Israel, so some Christians hate Jews and others love Jews. Evangelicals love Israel because of Gen. 12: they will receive bracha for loving Israel and curse for cursing Israel.  The Jew haters believe that G-d changed his mind and gave the Jewish inheritance to Christians. It is offensive to those who love Israel to be placed by the ignorant in the same bin with the others.

Comment by Abbushuki on 9/12/11 at 1:37 pm

ABBUSHUKI

This is how it goes. ALL CHRISTIANS that protest the existance of nazis in the US and the lack of anti nazi laws will be exempted from the term “all christians”. All chistians that apologize for christians being nazis will be exempted from the term “all christians”. All christians that admit that christians were nazis and say they were wrong and should not be allowd to be christians will be exempted from the term “all christians”.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 1:49 pm

Perm:  Were there any Christians in the USA army that liberated Europe and the death camps.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/12/11 at 3:29 pm

THOSE CHRISTIANS DIDN’T GO THERE TO LIBERATE THE DEATH CAMPS. THEY JUST HAPPENED TO FIND THEM AS THEY WERE OCCUPYING ENEMY TERRITORY.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 3:35 pm

Those men went to WWII because they were drafted. Don’t blame them for Rosevelt’s silence!  Perm you are a discrase to all Jewish war veterans and war dead

 

 

 

 

1

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/12/11 at 6:21 pm

Is France, Belgium , Holland, Norway,Denmark, etc enemy territory, ” Perm you dunce!

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/12/11 at 6:27 pm

I am not blaming those vet for anything. Yes, they rescued the walking dead of the death camps. I was in the military. I enlisted and volunteered for Vietnam. I and my black buddies were severly discriminated against by the majority of the military christians in my outfit. So, don’t make out any bigots as heroes. Yes, they rescued them, but I bet many of them hated having to rescue Jews.

Call me what you want, I have been called worse by christians and jews. I am old and still put myself in harms way to protect those disinfranchised.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 6:31 pm

HONEY BEE

LET’S NOT START A WAR HERE, LIKE THEY ARE STARTING WITH ISRAEL.

I spent 2 years in Europe after the war and I know what countries were occupied by the Nazis. Occupied by the enemy means enemy territory.

Comment by PERM on 9/12/11 at 6:33 pm

When you disrespect our troops and behave like a relious bigot, you distrube the hive and there will be war.

Comment by Honey Bee on 9/13/11 at 9:06 am

It used to be that the police and armed forces were to protect this country and its people. Now it is to protect the corporations and billionaires and make them more money.

GIs go into the military for 3 main reasons. Because they can’t get a job anywhere else, because they want to learn a trade and get GI Bill benefits and the third is they like killing people, even innocent little children.

I don’t respect anyone that hurts innocent people, especially children as they fall into the definition of terrorists. Anyone that respects them are terrorists.

Comment by PERM on 9/13/11 at 1:09 pm

CONTINUED

When I was in the air force, I was a global terrorist. I maintianed the vehicles for the suicide bombers. I was in a terrorist cell in Turkey in 64-65 and a terrorist cell in germany in 65-67. These suicide vehicles carried nuclear bombs and terrorized the whole world.

The pilots knew that if they dropped one nuke, it would be the end of life on Earth, hence, they would be commiting suicide

THE US IS THE BIGGEST TERRORIST IN THE WORLD as they still have more nuclear bombs than all other countries combined.

Comment by PERM on 9/13/11 at 1:12 pm

I totally agree with Sammy Levine’s rebuttal in the letters section of the Journal.  Kaplan actually compares America as a Country on par with the Ivory Coast?  Last year he actually compared Sarah Palin with the Iranian dictator Ahmadijad.  Kaplan was born a fool and remains a SCHMUCK for the rest of his life.

Comment by Earl on 9/17/11 at 4:24 pm

I live in a city where the local cops operate a child prostitution ring for non profit, for their own pleasure and the pleasure of the sheriff deputies, CHP officers adn their friends. In payment for sex with these undeage girls, they give them bottles of liquor, drugs. Because the police are involved and the children are getting what they want, booze, drugs, and special priveleg4es from the police, they don’t see themselves as victims and so, per one officer, “no victims have come forward, so they cannot investigate”.

So, I don’t agree with Kaplan either. I think the US is on a par with Libya, Iran and all fascist terrorist countries.

Comment by PERM on 9/17/11 at 4:49 pm

So, I don’t agree with Kaplan either. I think the US is on a par with Libya, Iran and all fascist terrorist countries.

I also believe this could only happen in acountry where people secretly hate children and the US is a people mostly filled with hate.

Comment by PERM on 9/17/11 at 4:50 pm

PERM, you are truly a special dude. I understand you are not exactly a youngster, and out of respect for alta kuckers I will keep my face zipped. Have a great, long and happy life.

Comment by Mini on 9/17/11 at 7:33 pm

Yes, Mini, I am a special person. NOt many people would or do put themselves in harms way to protect children they don’t even know personally.

As far as being an Alta kucker, I am usually referrred to as “an old fuck”.

Comment by PERM on 9/17/11 at 8:44 pm

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