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Los Angeles

August 2, 2011

Little-known non-cutting ritual appeals to some who oppose circumcision

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In the same week in which a San Francisco judge struck from the city’s November 2011 ballot a controversial measure aiming to ban circumcision of any male under 18, two reputable media sources reported on a relatively new, little-known ceremony that serves as a Jewish alternative to circumcision. The New York Times and NPR both reported on brit shalom — Hebrew for “covenant of peace” — and presented it as a small but growing phenomenon.

Brit shalom is frequently promoted by opponents of circumcision as a way to welcome baby boys into the Jewish covenant without the traditional ritual cutting that Jews have practiced for millennia and trace back to a biblical commandment from God to Abraham. But if you’ve never been to — or even heard of — this ceremony, you’re not alone.

“I have never had the pleasure of attending a brit shalom,” said filmmaker Eli Ungar-Sargon, whose 2007 documentary “Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision” presents a critical look at the common surgical procedure.

Ungar-Sargon, who has called circumcision “physically harmful, medically irresponsible and morally wrong,” said that an alternative to Jewish ritual circumcision, or brit milah, was “a great idea” — albeit one whose time has clearly not yet come.

“Calling it a marginal phenomenon would be generous,” he said.

A survey of Jewish ritual circumcisers and brit shalom “celebrants” working in and around Los Angeles confirms Ungar-Sargon’s impression.

Interviews with 12 of the 22 Jewish ritual circumcisers currently practicing in the greater Los Angeles area found they had collectively performed approximately 1,400 traditional Jewish circumcisions in 2010.

By contrast, there are just five known brit shalom celebrants in Southern California. Of the four who could be reached for this article, two had never performed the ceremony.

The third, Rosalie Gottfried, a secular humanist madricha (Hebrew for leader), estimated she had done six in the past decade, and always for parents opposed to circumcision.

“The only time I’m called upon is when a couple chooses to use ‘naming and welcoming’ instead of cutting,” Gottfried, who lives in Laguna Woods, wrote in an e-mail.

The fourth, Hershl Hartman, is the secular Jewish vegvayzer (Yiddish for leader) of the Sholem Community in Los Angeles. He has been naming — without circumcising — Jewish baby boys since the mid-1980s, “several dozen” in all, at a rate of about five every year.

That annual number, however, includes both girls and boys — which is appropriate because secular Jewish leaders like Hartman, who were among the earliest proponents of non-cutting naming ceremonies for Jewish baby boys, were motivated not by opposition to circumcision but by a commitment to egalitarianism.

According to Gottfried, the earliest known brit shalom ceremony was performed around 1970 by her mentor, Rabbi Sherwin Wine, the founder of the Society for Humanistic Judaism.

In 2002, the Leadership Conference of Secular and Humanistic Jews issued a statement about circumcision and Jewish identity that focused much of its attention on gender parity in religious practice.

“Our profound belief in the equality of men and women requires/ensures that Jewish welcoming ceremonies are not different for infant males than for infant females,” reads an excerpt from the statement’s preamble.

“We actually take a really open and welcoming perspective that you don’t have to be circumcised in order to be Jewish,” said Rabbi Adam Chalom, the dean of the North American branch of the International Institute for Secular Humanistic Judaism.

But don’t lump secular Jewish leaders along with anti-circumcision activists.

In June, Chalom contributed to a Chicago Tribune religion blog an entry titled “Circumcision Is Up to Parents,” in which he said that although “circumcision is non-consensual, irreversible, and painful,” there were valid medical, historical and cultural reasons for parents to choose circumcision for their sons.

“If anyone asks me, I say do it in an antiseptic setting,” Chalom said.

Chalom — the “ch” is pronounced in the French manner, as in chateau — leads the Kol Hadash Humanistic Congregation in Chicago. He said he gets “one or two” inquiries every year about brit shalom and has done “four or five” ceremonies in the last 10 years.

The most complete list of celebrants of brit shalom includes five prominent Jewish leaders in the anti-circumcision movement among the 50 people who perform the ceremony worldwide. Many of the others named on that list, which is hosted on a prominent anti-circumcision Web site, are secular Jewish leaders.

Mark Reiss, the 78-year-old retired Jewish doctor who is executive vice president of Doctors Opposing Circumcision, maintains the list — although he hadn’t performed a brit shalom until earlier this year. But since he had his “aha” moment and turned firmly against circumcision in 1999, Reiss has worked to gather the names of rabbis and other Jewish leaders willing to perform brit shalom ceremonies.

Moshe Rothenberg, a New York City social worker and literacy teacher, is believed to have performed more of the non-cutting ceremonies than anyone else in the world.

A Reconstructionist Jew and an active member of the movement against circumcision, Rothenberg estimated that in the nearly 25 years since his son was born (but not circumcised), he has performed the ceremony between 150 and 200 times.

Ironically, some Jewish parents with concerns about brit milah have made inquiries with the person least likely to provide them with an alternative to traditional circumcision: a mohel, or Jewish ritual circumciser.

“They want the ceremony minus the circumcision,” said Fred Kogen, a Los Angeles-based physician who has gotten a few such requests in his 26 years of practicing as a mohel. “I say, ‘Look, I can’t do it for you.’ ”

Unlike brit milah, which has liturgical elements that remain largely consistent between one ceremony and another, the Jewish boys’ naming ceremonies that do not feature circumcision are often tailored by parents and leaders, and therefore vary widely.

Chalom, who sometimes calls the ceremony a brit ahava (covenant of love) or brit mishpachah (covenant of family), said he occasionally uses lines from the traditional brit milah ceremony.

Judith Seid, a secular humanistic rabbi and cantor who leads Tri-Valley Cultural Jews in Pleasanton, also doesn’t typically use the term brit shalom.

“We usually just call it a baby naming,” she said. “Same like with a girl.”

Seid presided over the naming of a baby boy in San Francisco on July 30. The script for the event included remarks about Jewish tradition, the child’s parents and grandparents, and the Jewish community. No mention was made of the circumcision that did not take place.

At other brit shalom ceremonies, however, officiants do talk about what’s not going on.

In a booklet circulated at a Los Angeles naming ceremony in June, brit milah is referred to as “the pre-historic custom of the hunting/gathering/herding Hebrew tribes.”

“This is a ceremony of brit shalom, the peaceful covenant,” the text continued.

Hartman of the Sholem Community presided over that ceremony. In accordance with the secular Jewish leadership’s 2002 statement, Hartman doesn’t take a position on whether parents should circumcise — although he said he will not preside over circumcision ceremonies, which are inherently “theistic.”

Hartman does criticize religious leaders who exclude uncircumcised Jews from practices at their houses of worship — particularly rabbis who will not allow an uncircumcised boy to become a bar mitzvah in their synagogues.

“That tragic situation underlined to me the need for the religious Jewish community to examine more intensely the prehistoric origins of the rite,” Hartman said.

All the major branches of religious Judaism require — or at least encourage — circumcision. But if, as recent stories in The New York Times and NPR have reported, the incidence of brit shalom is increasing, it could follow the path of another practice that many Jews once considered (and some still do) controversial: intermarriage.

“When I first started doing interfaith marriages, you can bet that I got a lot of flak from my colleagues in the Reform movement,” said Rabbi Yeshaia Charles Familant, who was one of the first Reform rabbis in the country to begin performing intermarriages, in 1967.

When the couples he helped marry later had children, they called him, which is why Familant started performing what he called brit chayim — covenant of life — ceremonies in the early 1970s. Before retiring this year, the Menlo Park-based rabbi said he probably performed about 15 or 20 non-cutting naming ceremonies annually.

Familant is not opposed to circumcision, but he has no problem performing brit shalom-type ceremonies.

“If it violated any of my principles I would not have done any of this,” he said.

But other liberal rabbis who perform brit shalom ceremonies are not sold on the new ritual.

“Let’s just say that I do the ceremony,” said Jerry Levy, a 69-year-old Reform rabbi based in Tiburon. “I may not favor it, but I do it.”

Levy said he believes that parents should be able to choose the content of their religious practice. But it was no coincidence, Levy said, that brit shalom appeals mostly to parents who have a weaker sense of Jewish identity and less interest in Jewish continuity.

“I think that this not wanting to circumcise your sons is part of this process of diluting Judaism and assimilating into a very bland culture,” Levy said.

A version of this article appeared in print.
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It would’ve been nice if this article included some links to relevant information.

Brit Shalom Celebrants by Mark D. Reiss, M.D.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Jewish-shalom.html

Brit B’lee Milah (Covenant Without Cutting) Ceremony
http://www.nocirc.org/religion/Naming_ceremony.php

One Rabbis’ Thoughts on Circumcision by Rabbi Nathan Segal
http://www.rabbinathan.com/writings/circum.shtml

A Case for Bris without Milah.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Jewish.html

Jewish Voices: The Current Judaic Movement to End Circumcision: Part 1
http://intactnews.org/node/104/1311886091/jewish-voices-current-judaic-movement-end-circumcision-part-1

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/02/11 at 6:08 pm

The Judaic Movement to End Circumcision: Part 2
http://intactnews.org/node/105/1311886372/jewish-voices-current-judaic-movement-end-circumcision-part-2

Israeli Association Against Genital Mutilation (in Hebrew)
http://www.britmila.org.il

Kahal: Giving Up Brit Milah (in Hebrew and English)
http://www.kahal.org

Interview with Jewish Intactivist Miriam Pollack
http://www.beyondthebris.com/2011/07/defying-convention-interview-with_27.html

Jews who believe that circumcision should be against the law.
http://intactnews.org/node/103/1311885181/jews-speak-out-favor-banning-circumcision-minors

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/02/11 at 6:38 pm

Enough of this “it should be up to the parents.” How about “it should be up to the owner of the penis.”

Comment by Moe on 8/03/11 at 1:39 am

So glad more fellow Jews are starting to do the more humane practice of not circumcising their children.

Comment by Zisel R. on 8/03/11 at 8:49 am

Ah yes, the “J"J continues its efforts to deJudaize the Jews of LA.  Don’t worry, in about two more generations your work will have succeeded and the remaining faithful Jews won’t be readers of this rag - the “J"J won’t be around, nor will the descendents of the Bagel Jews (they’ll all be Christians or long forgetful of their Jewish origins).

Comment by george on 8/03/11 at 10:28 am

Cut: Slicing Through the Myths of Circumcision – A Film by Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon
http://www.cutthefilm.com

Jews for the Rights of the Child
http://www.jewsfortherightsofthechild.org/

Circumcision and the Brain
http://circumcision.org/brain.htm

Alternative Jewish Rituals
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/ritual.htm

Israeli Linguist Vadim Cherny: How Judaic is the Circumcision?
http://vadimcherny.org/judaism/how_judaic_circumcision.htm

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/03/11 at 10:38 am

Being rational about circumcision
and Jewish observance by Moshe Rothenberg - Brooklyn, NY
http://www.noharmm.org/rationaljew.htm

Eli Ungar-Sargon Debates Rabbi Shmuley Boteach on the Ethics of Circumcision
http://www.beyondthebris.com/2011/07/eli-ungar-sargon-debates-kosher-sex.html
My Son: The Little Jew with a Foreskin by Stacey Greenberg
http://mothering.com/health/my-son-the-little-jew-with-a-foreskin
The Jewish Roots of Anti-Circumcision Arguments by Lisa Braver Moss
http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/second/moss.html
Brit Shalom: An Alternative Naming Ceremony
By Mark Reiss, M.D.
http://www.beyondthebris.com/2011/07/brit-shalom-alternative-naming-ceremony.html

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/03/11 at 11:03 am

Part I

I am amazed at this silliness. if Jews want to be Protestants, go to it. I was circumcised 66 years as was my son and all the males in my family. I was raised as a Reform Jew, my parents were married by Stephen Wise and I spent 25 years in a Reconstruction Synagogue, Bet Am Shalom. I am not very religious, but a dues paying supporter of synagogues for 35+ years and my children attended the Solomon Schechter School of White Plains, NY.

Richard J. Garfunkel
Host of The Advocates
WVOX 1460 am radio
New Rochelle, NY
http://advocates-wvox.com

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 1:24 pm

The foreskin is richly innervated erogenous tissue and should not be amputated without medical urgency or unless the benefit SIGNIFICANTLY outweighs the potential for harm. Virtually all medical associations in the world agree there is no benefit to non-therapeutic circumcision. Bronze age religious blood rituals should never trump rational scientific judgment and contemporary medical ethics. Physicians need to put down the scalpels and respect the autonomy of the child. His body, his choice.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/03/11 at 3:56 pm

Most of my friends do not keep Kashrut or even Shabbot, but some do. It seems to me that of all the commandments from G-d to Abraham, the one that is the most critical was the one of circumcision. It identified one as a Jew. Maybe many Jews that are anti-circumcision at heart want to be Marranos, go to it. I am sure one can be a good Jew by praying in their own fashion, and integrating into the secular world by eating what they wish and doing what they want on whatever day they wish. But without circumcision, the High Holy Days and Pesach, what else is left. The apologists for this movement say it is barbaric, unnecessary, and not an important affect on one’s health.

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 4:16 pm

As I was saying before I was cut off by the 700 character limit! I say they are wrong and I believe that with this type of Jewish leadership, the identity and the future of Judaism is in doubt. By disappearing into the greater society of the world, the meaning of being a Jew is lost. Jews are “chosen” to be the witness to society, to answer to a higher law, to learn the differences between right and wrong and to teach by example. What example are these Marranos teaching? Judaism has to be more than Ethical Culture. But if it isn’t one can flock to the Ethical Culturists on W.64th Street in NY. Maybe that’s where Christopher Guest prays! Who said it was easy to be a Jew?

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 4:19 pm

I do practice circumcision but @george and others prophesizing the end of the Jewish people.  We are amazingly resilient and the struggle and search by all for an inclusive solution only give reason for optimism and hope. 

Case in point: Orthodox fertility in Israel is going down only to be offset by increases in Jewish Secular fertility.  Who would have thought?

http://www.jewishjournal.com/demographic_duo/item/israeli_babies_almost_a_wash_-_seculars_making_up_for_ultra-orthodox_fertil/

Comment by Pini Herman on 8/03/11 at 4:32 pm

The asinine bill that was promoted in SF, methinks smacks of anti-Semitism, and if it was supported by some ultra, left-leaning self-hating Jews, what else is new? I have been a card-carrying progressive Democrat for decades and I smell an ulterior motive in all this medical mumbo-jumbo. Jews have been surviving for eons and they have survived in mostly good health. Recent studies at Albert Einstein by Dr.Nir Barzilai show that Ashkenazi Jews live longer and they are all circumcised!


Richard J. Garfunkel
Host of The Advocates
WVOX 1460 am radio
New Rochelle, NY
http://advocates-wvox.com

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 4:33 pm

Today’s article proof Againster is on the right-track! . Having read the lengthy opposition list seeking finis to the ceremonial bris, oft- furnished by contributor “A Jewish Male….”  have decided that research will indeed prove that there are organized “groups” against virtually everything; including Kobi, Moms and apple pie. Need a nap. Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 8/03/11 at 5:33 pm

Richard,
I agree with you, the SF bill was misguided. Please tell me that you are not suggesting that circumcision increases life expectancy. The two countries with the longest life expectancy are Japan (circumcision rate <1%) and Sweden (circumcision rate 1.2%) There is no medical indication for non-therapeutic circumcision. There is no medical benefit to non-therapeutic circumcision.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/03/11 at 6:40 pm

I am enjoying the Yankees who are beating up on the helpless White Sox, but to answer your question, I am sure that if Jews lived in Japan and Sweden and were obviously circumcised they would also live a long time. Basically Jews have lived long lives with circumcision and have had a lower incidence of cancer and infection. This whole issue is flummery and strange. I read some of the Rabbi Segal’s comments on the issue and I also find them weird. One thing is for sure put two Jews in a room and they’ll find a way to disagree.

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 6:56 pm

The incidence of penile cancer is 1 in 200,000. Intact men are more likely to die from breast cancer than penile cancer. The incidence of urinary tract infections in male infants is 1 in 186, and even if circumcision prevented UTIs (which it doesn’t), you would have to perform 186 circumcisions to prevent one urinary tract infection that could be cured with $15 of ciprofloxacin.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/03/11 at 7:05 pm

I just read the Miriam Pollack interview and I now know that we as a people, like the famous Pogo cartoon written by Walt Kelly fit his famous quote. “We have met the enemy and it is us.” With all the problems in the world and many which involve Jews with money,(people like Eric Cantor) threats against Israel, anti-Semitism, stupid issues on the ballot, and threats to the Western World, these clowns need an issue! Next they’ll be worrying about inoculations and campaigning against the sting of a needle! Please get a life. I am so sorry I came across this site and the accompanying tripe fulminated by zealots.

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 7:11 pm

How redeeming to find a self-identified “progressive Democrat” to be a humorless, posturing twit, typifying the ultimate egomania those of his ilk are imbued with. Well,  we are very happy that you “came across this site”  as you serve ready-reference to us zealots the endemic nasty nature of your peer-group. Speaking for myself, I am really sad that you’ve decided to take ball and bat and run home. I’ll really miss you, least until engaged by the next pompous, self-satisfied noodnik attracted to this site. Vaya con Dios Senior Advocate. Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 8/03/11 at 8:11 pm

I won’t miss you clown! As I recall Patrick Dennis wrote about his kooky aunt and you fit the bill!

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/03/11 at 8:52 pm

Some of your correspondents have a gift for missing the point. smile It’s about human rights. Does anyone deny we have a human right to the undisturbed ownership of our own earlobes, little toes, and so on? How come the foreskin alone is fair game for someone else to cut off for their reasons, not ours?

Richard Garfunkel, how do women manage to be identified as Jews without having parts cut off them? And now that your robes no longer fly open in the desert wind to show your glory for everyone to see, who’s ever going to see anyone’s, to identify him as a Jew, anyway?

Comment by Hugh7 on 8/03/11 at 9:06 pm

Just when we expected the anti-bris crowd to fade back to their card table on the boardwalk, along comes more coverage of the bizarre fringe of Jews. Look at what’s happening: Mormon Glenn Beck said it….‘call me a Jew’, there are more Christians today who buy kippot and tallitot than do reform Jews; and Humanistic ‘Jews’ include an atheistic pseudo-Jewish ritual called a ‘bris’. The JJ is but a silly side-show, like the one with the two-headed turtle on the Venice boardwalk. ‘See the bloodless bris’. As if there are no serious Jewish issues, such as Jewish school budgets, disappearing temples and the awesome rate of Jewish illiteracy in matters Jewish. What a rag!

Comment by Abbushuki on 8/03/11 at 11:11 pm

San Francisco Judge brings back reason!

“Anti-circumcision advocates who had gathered more than 7,000 signatures to put the measure on the ballot expressed disappointment and said they would appeal.”

“To remove an initiative before it comes on ballot is an extraordinarily irregular thing to do,” said Lloyd Schofield, who is part of a Bay Area advocacy group that says the surgery violates human rights and likens it to “male genital mutilation.”

“To go to this length to have it struck from the ballot is undemocratic,” he said. “It’s very unfortunate.”

More idiocy from these nuts! Genital mutilation- why not worry about real genital mutilation in Africa?

Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 12:41 pm

The National Anti-Circumcision Movement: An Attack on Men and ...
biggovernment.com/.../the-national-anti-circumcision-movement-an…

Matthew Hess of MGMBill is one of the leaders behind the proposed circumcision bans.  Hess is also the writer and editor of “Foreskin Man,” a comic book published by MGMBill.  Two of the illustrations here from his comic book show blatant anti-Semitism.  Anti-Semitism of this nature is unheard of in the U.S. and should be an alarming red flag to all.

What else is new? Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 12:49 pm

Part I

In the above statement, Hess links to a Reuter’s article, titled “Circumcision does not affect HIV in U.S. Men: Study.” The title is misleading:  the study it reports on, a 2007 Center for Disease Control study, actually involved bisexual and homosexual men only, rather than all U.S. men. While the health of bisexual and homosexual U.S. men is important, they comprise only a small subset (3%) of the population.  The health and welfare of the other 97% of the U.S. population, is also important.

Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 12:52 pm

Part II
The greatly beneficial health effects of circumcision on heterosexual men were demonstrated by a key 2008 study conducted by Gregorio Millett, who is a Senior Behavioral Scientist at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Millett is currently serving as Senior Advisor on the Office of National AIDS Policy.  This 2008 study was of male heterosexuals in Africa and their risk for HIV transmission and its implications for the United States.  In the CDC report Millett stated that “substantial protective effect of male circumcision on risk for HIV infection was noted.”  Millett continued:

Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 12:55 pm

Part III
The risk for HIV infection was 44% lower in circumcised men. The strongest association was seen in men at high risk, such as patients at sexually transmitted disease clinics, for whom the adjusted relative risk was 71% lower for circumcised men. Circumcision among hetero males, greatly reduces the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Circumcision is advocated by USAID in Africa because of this effectiveness.USAID documents that African countries with a high incidence of circumcision have a far lower incidence of HIV. A joint report by the WHO and the United Nations estimates that only 30% of males worldwide aged 15 and up are circumcised.

RJ Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 1:03 pm

Space limits world-wide statistics reflecting how circumcision has lower HIV rates all over the world. Check it out yourselves. Dr. Guest (who) seems to be wrong, the supporters of this idiocy stems from anti-Semites, and the Jews who are led by the nose are fools and should find another more sensible cause then stirring up hatred with worthless ballot initiatives Grow up!

RJ Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 1:07 pm

If circumcision reduces HIV transmission, please answer the following questions:
-Why does Sweden (circ rate 1.2%) have a six times lower HIV infection rate than the USA (circ rate 80%)?
-Why does Japan (circ rate <1%) have an eight times lower HIV infection rate than South Korea (circ rate 70%)?
-Why do the Xhosa Nation in South Africa (circ rate 100%) have the same HIV infection rate as the Zulu Nation (circ rate 0%)?
-

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:28 pm

The correct answer to these questions is that any protective effect is likely overshadowed by lifestyle choices and sexual behaviour. To suggest that removing normal genital tissue from infants, to possibly offer protection for future risky sexual behaviour, in regions of the world where HIV is not endemic, is immoral and does not meet the ethical test of proportionality.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:31 pm

Ask yourself how morally bankrupt it is for Western circumcision proponents to export this practice to the world’s poorest and least educated people who are dealing with a terrible HIV epidemic? All of the African RCTs are by Western circumcision proponents: Dr. Auvert (since 2003), Dr. Bailey (since 1998), Dr. Gray (since 1994) and are heavily biased and flawed.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:37 pm

Biggest flaws:
-RCTs did not control for concomitant malarial infection, which is the single most important predictor of HIV viral load
-no correction of lead time bias in surgical group, who could not have sex for 6 weeks while recovering from circumcision
-studies did not control for % of females working in the sex trade, which is the biggest predictor of female to male transmission in any African community

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:40 pm

Eventually, most medical associations will reject the notion that circumcision is relevant for combating HIV infection, and HIV/AIDS will join the list of many other ailments that were once thought to be magically cured by circumcision. Bronze-age blood rituals are seldom the cure for anything.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:44 pm

My guess is that most Western national medical associations will caution against circumcision for HIV/AIDS prophylaxis as we have already seen from Finland, and from Holland, and from Australia, and from South Africa (ironically). The potential for harm exceeds the potential for any health benefit.

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 2:50 pm

Can we agree on the following and stop this stupid arguing: A) from a Jewish perspective, the health benefits or no of circumcision are irrelevant, it’s a religious obligation and that’s all that counts; and B)it currently appears there is a small but not statistically insignificant benefit to the procedure.

And C) Guest, std rates in Sweden v US? Are you stupid or just dumb?  Homogeneous population v diverse; in US major 3rd world population, more poverty, etc. etc.  That give you a clue?  Are you really a doc?  Hope you’re not for the sake of your faux patients.

Comment by george on 8/04/11 at 2:52 pm

We can certainly agree that there are no significant health benefits to circumcision. I assume your second point is that social/environmental factors are much more important for STD transmission than circumcision status, which raises the question, “Why do the procedure?”. Soap and water for little girls, scalpels and Gomco clamps for little boys? How about teaching children to clean their genitals instead of amputating part of them?

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 4:12 pm

“Why working to end circumcision and not hunger or the marginization of women or the repression of gay people all of which I have also consistently spoken out against? I determined long ago that circumcision is one of those absurd practices that could be ended because truth, facts and pure human empathy would defeat it.  Stopping circumcision is doable because it is so repulsive that seemingly anyone with compassion would recognize it.Surely the headway made in ending smoking in the workplace, sexual harassment in the office or child labor give hope that something like circumcision can be ended through tactics like shame, ostracizing and grassroots outrage.” Another nut-Lawn Griffiths

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 4:18 pm

Fine Chris, you advise your patients (if you really are a doc) there are no benefits to the procedure - your Jewish patients (who care about being Jewish) will have them circumcised anyway, your non Jewish one may or may not believe you after googling the issue.

Now can we end this stupid discussion.  That will give you time Dr. Chris (sic) time to read some medical journals on issues that matter so you won’t commit malpractice, which given your obsessive posting here is a real risk to your clientele.

Comment by george on 8/04/11 at 4:18 pm

Lawn Griffiths, Dr. Guest and Matthew Hess, three patriots have dedicated themselves to continuing where the racists, Nazis and anti-Semites left off. Now we indulge in barbaric practices! I can recall the Russian blood oath about the making of matzos from Christian children;s blood. This is their great issue. Must be a Zionist plot to maim their male off spring with the Mark of Cain.

Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 4:25 pm

You ought to Google this character Lawn Griffiths, (no kidding) so-called civic activist. We have these crazies here in Westchester County, NY who rave about zoning, shriek about budgets, tie up the time of municipalities with endless FOIL requests and are professional provocateurs. They have dedicated their lives to making most reasonable people nuts. But his issue would be tough to support in NY. Stay out there in Az and worry about the next rainfall.

Richard J. Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 4:30 pm

Agreed to end discussion. That will give you some time to read up on the universal human right to bodily integrity and to debate the following question: “How can a religion with such an exemplary record on human rights and scientific achievement, such as Judaism, continue to perform ritual genital mutilation on its most powerless and vulnerable members?”

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 4:31 pm

By the way the Yankee game is coming on soon and I have to continue reading my Alan Furst novel, but I cannot agree with Dr Kildare that their is no health benefit to circumcision and there seems to be ample medical science that disagrees with your claptrap.

RJ Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 4:33 pm

A typical Nazi tactic is to repeat a lie often and loudly. Notice how Dr. Kildare sympathizes with Jews as humanists on one hand, but excoriates them as mutilators on the other. Is he kidding or really serious. A Brith is mutilation? How about a nose job with its removal of tissue, how about tummy tucks, how about stomach stapling, how about nose, ear and belly rings? How about tattoos and tattoo removal? Where is your campaign against tattoos? Jews usually don’t request those, but many were given them before they were murdered. Your cavalier use of the term genital mutilation is offensive as you are.

RJ Garfunkel

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 4:46 pm

Richard,
It is currently illegal in your country and mine (Canada) to do all of those things you’ve listed to non-consenting children. Why not add cutting off the most heavily innervated part of the penis to that list?

Comment by Christopher Guest MD, FRCPC on 8/04/11 at 6:00 pm

Holy verbosity Garfunkel; you hung-up on yourself over 21 hours ago and still find you venting spleen a near full-day later. And you advising US to “get a life”?  Just what in blue-blazes do you “Advocate” for—-euthanasia. And doing it in Roman Numeral segments yet! Admit it you New York Minute,  you’re loving this having finally trotted-out the (ugh!) “Nazi tactic” argument. Bet you just loved “The Producers; right up your alley Garfunkel. Believe you just need to be Simonized. Yeah, thats the ticket!
Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 8/04/11 at 6:17 pm

I was present for a secular Jewish baby naming ceremony this year at The Sholem Community- http://www.sholem.org/- and I can say that it was a very moving experience.  Hershl Hartman presided over the ceremony and it was a beautiful ritual that bonded the community.  The Sholem Community plans on making this part of their ongoing recognition of life cycle events.

Comment by Amy Miller on 8/04/11 at 6:20 pm

Hey Garfunkel,
If you feel like giving the issue honest consideration, why not do a show with yourself and some serious Jewish opponents of circumcision such as those in this article?

Bris Shalom Ceremony by Norm Cohen
http://www.nocircofmi.org/BrisShalom.htm

To the Mohel Who Cut Me by Shea Levy
http://www.beyondthebris.com/2011/06/to-mohel-who-cut-me.html

Circumcision, Authority, and the Perpetuation of Abuse by Jonathan Friedman
http://www.beyondthebris.com/2011/06/on-circumcision-authority-and.html

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective by Miriam Pollack
http://www.noharmm.org/pollack.htm

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/04/11 at 6:28 pm

The Advocates focuses on public policy and it is not a forum for extremists and loonies. It is open to people who have legitimate views all perspectives. The Jewish community has been performing a Brith for thousands of years. If you folks; Jews and Gentiles, want to bang your heads against the wall, insult a long-established tenant of Judaism go to it. If you want be fellow travelers of anti-Semites and ridicule this ceremony as mutilation and barbarism go to it. If people choose not to circumcise their son that’s their choice, it is a free country. But don’t be duped by the folks who pose as humanists but have a hidden agenda.

RJ Garfunkel

http://advocates-wvox.com

Comment by Richard J. Garfunkel on 8/04/11 at 8:14 pm

Well, this is a public policy issue. It was in Massachusetts, San Francisco, San Diego, and will almost certainly be in the courts in the future.

Humanists (capital H) such as Jewish nobel prize winner and Harvard Professor George Wald were among the first to speak out against circumcision.

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/abraham.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAQdM2CxY5c&feature=watch_response
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfnqN3YgTd8&feature=related
http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/04/11 at 10:04 pm

Our Son’s Bris Shalom: Welcoming Covenant By Brenda Platt
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/08/our-sons-bris-shalom-welcoming-covenant.html

Gonnen (in Hebrew)
http://www.gonnen.org/

Jewish Women Against Circumcision
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3xBHgeAc3E&feature=related

A Jewish Mothers Change of Heart
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/12/ready-to-talk-jewish-mothers-change-of.html

Jewish Mother - Intact Son
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3ZHwpL-E0&feature=related

Comment by A Jewish Male Opposing Circumcision on 8/04/11 at 10:12 pm

Why do I love it when New York and San Francisco libera———oops progressives,  have it out; especially on an “issue”  so intrinsically vapid and obviously inspired by the lunatic fringe.

This the very essence of the “progressive” agenda, as with most quasi-intellectual cynics who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Wonderful watching both sides exposing themselves for the pompous, self-obsessed, nudniks they are. Excuse me while I stifle several yawns.  Aunty Mame

Comment by Mr. Againster on 8/05/11 at 1:52 am

I’m a leader in the Sholem Community (www.sholem.org) and I’ve officiated at secular Jewish baby namings.  Two comments.  First—Rabbi Levy is quoted as saying: ““I think that this not wanting to circumcise your sons is part of this process of diluting Judaism and assimilating into a very bland culture…” Jewish customs change, and I’m quite sure that Jews of millennia past would not recognize Rabbi Levy as the authentic Jew he would claim to be.  Second—no one is against circumcision—for males adult enough to make a decision for themselves.  For others—“what is hurtful to you, don’t do to others.”—Hillel

Comment by Jeffrey Kaye on 8/06/11 at 4:28 pm

What a pompous signature line: Jews Opposing Circumcision - no you bagel eating non caring Jew, you are a Jew, not Jews.  And if you are so concerned about the integrity of a tiny flap of skin that Jewish males haven’t missed for over 3,000 years (nor most American males for probably 50 - 100 years), just what position do you take on abortion (I hesitatingly believe you have to give the mother the choice, but it’s not an easy moral question), aborting an 8 month 29 day old fetus is ok, but removing a tiny bit of skin covering a penis is not?

Comment by george on 8/08/11 at 5:31 pm

And Jeffrey Kaye, I just went to you website - do you realize how foolish you look?  You are the very caricature of the granola eating extreme leftist kumbaya singing deJudaized bagel Jew.  Why in the world do you even care about maintaining any Jewish identity - there are other religions that have similar moral codes to Jews; and the cult of Liberalism would seem to more fit your belief system.  What, you don’t want to disappoint your grandmother - I’ve news Jeffrey, she’s long ago written you off.

Comment by george on 8/08/11 at 5:38 pm

Many Jews oppose circumcision. Can you countDr. Reiss’ list, described in this article contains over 50 Rabbi’s who perform a peaceful bris ceremony. And there there are new Rabbi’s joining all the time.

http://www.noharmm.org/letterjew.htm
http://www.officiant.org/brit-shalom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acc70D2ApFg
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/july232011/ending-jewish-circ.php

Comment by Jews Opposing Circumcision on 8/09/11 at 1:11 am

The Jewish Journal recently reported on a Jewish woman from the UK who thinks that circumcision should be made illegal, without a religious exception.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/politics/article/circumcision_critic_has_board_links_20110616/

Eli Ungar-Sargon supported MGM laws in an op-ed in the Forward.
http://www.forward.com/articles/137577/

http://intactnews.org/node/88/1310446571/other-side-circumcision-debate
http://www.sandfordborins.com/2011/06/09/the-circumcision-referendum-a-liberal-jewish-perspective/
http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/circumcision-identity-gender-and-power

Comment by Jews Opposing Circumcision on 8/09/11 at 1:15 am

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