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Ilana:  well written.  I think Miss Gottlieb likes controversy and uses it as a marketing tool to get herself in the public eye, hence her sharp rebuttal to The Atlantic.  Her biggest supporter does seem to be her business partner camouflaged as a fan.  I think that tells you everything.  He’s the shill at her medicine show.  I think if Miss Gottlieb told the truth and admited that this is simply another one of her novelty books (like all of her prior publications) then the level of offense would go down…but so would all the glorious negative attention she’s drawing.  You know how children are.

Comment by Susan.susan on 2/08/10 at 3:35 pm

Susan,

I couldn’t agree with you more. 
She is a piece of work.
It will be interesting to see if she agrees to meet me.
I’m guessing it will be a no.
Thanks for taking the time to write.

Best,

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/08/10 at 3:40 pm

“I want to marry a Jew, and other than that, I am open.  I have written several times that I am smart enough to know that the man of my dreams may come in a package that I am not expecting… As for women holding out for a certain height, weight, or eye color, that implies that we would not give a man a chance because his eyes were brown, not blue. That is offensive to me.  Ms. Gottlieb’s book is written with the assumption that women are stupid.”

Uh, no.  This book, rather than being “written with the assumption that women are stupid,” is written with the assumption that the women who are in fact being “stupid” (as you call it) are being stupid.  There is a difference and that difference is profound.  *You* and your more-reasoned dating perspective are not the target audience for this book.  *They* are.

Clearly you are not one of the persons you describe as “stupid,” but those who in fact lack your more-reasoned perspective have got some issues.  Is that truly so difficult to fathom?  Or do you genuinely believe that such women do not exist in sufficient quantity to warrant speaking to or about?  Or maybe that they do not exist at all, and that the author has invented some kind of attitudinal apparition?

I run into such women all the time.  Send me a ticket out of this universe and into yours, where all women are sensible and never roundly superficial, and you will make my day.  I’ll even bring some of my sensible single Jewish guy friends along for the ride and introduce you to them as a thank you.

“Ms. Gottlieb sounds a little angry and bitter.”

Maybe.  But so what if she is?  One could counter that you sound offended.  In fact, you *said* you were offended.  Since she is purportedly angry, and you state that you are offended, should we dismiss both of you as irrational and wipe both her and your writings off the face of the planet as a consequence?

Eh, ok.

I don’t think the validity (or lack thereof) of Ms. Gottlieb’s research, perspective, etc., is what’s at issue in your post.  What seems to be at issue is simply that you disagree with applying her thoughts to you and those who you presume (incorrectly) are just like you.  Since she arguably advocates dating frameworks much like the one you describe (stick with the criteria that matter the most, and be open to variation in “the package”), though, you aren’t really debunking her primary point.  What you are doing, however, is feeding the notion that nobody need take a step back and reexamine their stuff.  You will have lots of fans in that regard - the “I deserve to get whatever I want and it doesn’t matter how unreasonable I sound” crowd loves such rah-rah - but that hardly makes it thoughtful, reasoned commentary.

Comment by A Random Reader on 2/08/10 at 4:10 pm

I’ve got $20.00 that says “A Random Reader” is Evan, or someone else in the Gottlieb camp.  Why use an alias?  You certainly do have a lot of time on your hands to be able to dedicate so much time to my blog and opinion.

I stick by my words and again invite Ms. Gottlieb to meet with me.  Perhaps you can set that up Evan?

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/08/10 at 4:28 pm

Ms. Angel:  No, I am not “Evan”. I stumbled into your article by way of a Google News link.  First-time reader.  I found your writing of interest, and commented.  And as it happens, I do have a bit of time on my hands at the moment, but since I type at 70WPM, it probably doesn’t have to be as much as you think.

As to the alias, I suppose I could have chosen a realistic-sounding pseudonym that would not have raised your ire, but why purport to be someone I’m not?  There is no shame in a private citizen opting to remain anonymous by name on the public Internet, particularly if the commentary is reasoned, and the anonymity is obvious to any reader.

Similarly, I have no interest in commentary from “Evan” for exactly the reasons you mentioned, which were well-stated.  A vested interest in book sales would make one a questionable source of objective comment, no matter what they otherwise had to say.

Regardless, if your only response to those who question your position is to paint them with ad hominems and conspiracy theory… well… that is certainly up to you.  But if that’s all you have to offer, it speaks for itself.

Good luck with your invitation to the author.  Perhaps she or someone in her “camp,” as you put it, will, in fact, find it and reply.

Comment by A Random Reader on 2/08/10 at 5:16 pm

Dear Random Reader,

You put me in my place and you are correct to have done so.  I apologize for the assumption that you were in the Gottlieb camp.  I’m glad you found the article, and happy that you took the time to comment. 

Whether or not you are part of her team is irrelevant, and won’t change my opinion of the book.

I am working hard to find you a ticket out of this universe and into mine, where women are sensible and never superficial.  It will be worth my laying out cash for the ticket just to meet your sensible single Jewish guy friends.

Thanks again for sharing.

Best,

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/08/10 at 5:27 pm

It is curious that so much of your complaints devolve into ad hominem attacks on Ms. Gottleib or on this guy “Evan.” Who really cares about either of them personally? Either Gottleib has a good point, or she doesn’t. Her point, which seems like a good one to me, is not directed at you, as the commenter above pointed out. It is directed at other, younger women who hold on to illusions that you have labeled “shallow.” Kudos to you for being so above them, but again, as the other commented noted, there are lots of people who are “shallow” like that. Maybe naive is a better word.

As for whether Gottleib said it’s better to get married to anyone than to not get married at all, I don’t think she said that at all. She said better to go for the “8” rather than hold out indefinitely for a hypothetical “10.” She’s talking about women who are walking away from long-term relationships that have already proved stable, to try for some fantasy perfect relationship. Your critiques would be much more persuasive and interesting if you actually responded to substance, instead of getting hung up on words that bother you, like “settle.”

By the way, I have never seen a blogger who attacks their readers for having too much time on their hands because they left a comment. If you don’t want reader comments, why don’t you just turn that feature off on your blog, instead of insulting your readership? Just a thought.

(Btw, I am not “Evan” either—I also found this on Google News yesterday).

Comment by Felix on 2/09/10 at 12:18 am

Felix,

Let me being by saying that I’m glad you found the blog, and took the time to write.

If you were a regular reader of my blog you would not take offense to my telling “Random” that he had too much time on his hands.  I suppose that sometime my sense of humor does not translate into the blog properly.  Random and I have been emailing offline, and having an interesting discussion about Ms. Gottlieb’s book and dating in general.

My comments are not intended to be ad hominem attacks on Ms. Gottlieb, and I’m not sure that they come across that way.  My issue is with the message. 
Have you read the book?  I am not suggesting that I am above anyone.  I have the same concerns and fears as every other woman.  What I have however, that it would be appear the women who Ms. Gottlieb wrote her book for, is self esteem and a desire to be with my Beshert, not just a guy that is good enough.

The blog is my opinion, and my take on her book.  I was accused of literally judging a book by it’s cover, so I read the book and my opinion is the same.  It is silly and detrimental to women.  That said, bravo to Ms. Gottlieb for stirring up controversy and interest.  I guess she did what she was paid to do.

I hope you will come back and read the blog again.  Welcome to the Jewish Journal.

Best,

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/09/10 at 12:39 am

Ilana,

Thank you for your reply.

I guess this is just a difference of philosophy. You say you have a desire for your beshert, but here’s a question: How is it that in the old days everyone just happened to find their “beshert” in their own little shtetl at the age of 19? Whereas today people wait longer and have so many, many more choices, but are unable to find a match that will satisfy them? To me, the answer is the paradox of choice—people have trouble making decisions when there are too many options to consider. My view is that when you are ready for marriage, you will find someone you are strongly attracted to and whose values and lifestyle are fundamentally compatible with yours, and then you should make a go of that. The rest has to develop from there.

Comment by Felix on 2/09/10 at 1:17 am

Haven’t read the book in question, but caught the article-length version in the Atlantic a few years back, and it certainly made an impression. I do admit to having taken what she said personally - even though the “settle” advice is really for women in their 20s, most of them are probably beyond open to such advice, and by the time women get to their thirties, it’s seen as “too late - you should have settled,” at which point we should all climb back into our respective Deloreans and head back to a simpler time and make different choices.

Can women be shallow or superficial? Yes, of course. Are all women shallow or superficial? The answer should be an obvious “of course not,” but somehow that’s not the current public opinion. Then if you add the “Jewish” filter, that’s when the anti-Jewish commentary really starts. Believe me - there are comments and comments worth on my blog.

I really try to avoid assigning blame to one sex over the other, because I don’t think it’s productive. The more people I talk to, the more I realize how destructive these stereotypes are. I do think that certain behaviors are more prevalent in men (dating younger, for instance) than in women. And perhaps women generally speaking want their men to have jobs (with maybe even a few judging the man by his Benjamins). But ad hominem attacks - on the author, on women, and yes, even on men - don’t really get us where we need to be dating-ethicswise.

Settle for the “8” instead of waiting for the “10”? Good advice, but what about not ranking people with numbers? There’s an idea.

Comment by EstherK on 2/09/10 at 1:59 am

Felix,

I will always respond to a comment.  I appreciate that people take the time to not only read the blog, but comment on it.

I worked for many years at the Shoah Foundation and watched countless Holocaust Survivor testimonies, where they spoke of meeting their spouses when they were young, it was Beshert,  they got married, and that was it.  Sadly, the time of which you speak is long gone. 

It used to be enough to come from a good family and shared a faith.  if only it were so simple now.

I agree that when you are ready it will happen.  When you set up roadblocks for yourself, based on age, money, or the name Sheldon, then clearly you are not ready to get married.

I’ve enjoyed our chat.

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/09/10 at 2:10 am

Esther,

Interesting comment.  Especially about the Jewish piece being factored in.  I totally agree.  Personally, I refuse to settle.  For me, a man is not judged by a number.  He is judged be his character.  I am simply fascinated that there are women in their 40’s, who are still willing to play games. At some point, it is time to grow up.  That is when love will find you.  Thanks for writing.

Best,

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/09/10 at 2:16 am

Excellent blog, Ilana.  And while I don’t always agree with columnist Maureen Dowd, I do on this one: “The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for.”  Words to live by.

And remembering our time working at the Foundation, you made me think of Henry and Janet Rosmarin, one of my favorite “Beshert” stories. 

Comment by Jen on 2/09/10 at 4:18 am

Thanks Jen.
Great quote Jen.
Henry and Janet are my favorite Beshert story too!
Thanks for sharing.

Ilana xo

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/09/10 at 4:27 am

When I was younger—okay, much younger—I too made decisions about dating partners based on reasons that objective observers might label “shallow,” and they would have been right. However, one day I signed up for a relationship seminar series, and in the course of one of the exercises, I had an epiphany that blew me away.

Yes, the reasons I had been giving for rejecting some great guys were superficial and shallow, but what I discovered was really behind that behavior was a terrifying, subconscious belief that being married was synonymous with being trapped for life. Apparently, witnessing the dynamics of my own parents’ marriage had a lot to do with that subconscious decision. On a conscious level, though, until that moment, I had no clue I had been acting out on this belief.

My point is, I think it might be a little flip to just lecture people to revise their thinking and their professed expectations and standards. I believe that, often, the only way to change a particular behavior is by identifying and shifting the driving force behind said negative behavior.

And, yes, most shtetl marriages endured, but they were not all healthy, happy, ones. In those days and in those communities, to be divorced was to bring shame upon yourself and your family; and, so, unhappy spouses tended to suffer through a miserable marriage until their death or widowhood.

Comment by Faigy on 2/09/10 at 8:43 am

in all fairness, I have to say i got the booktoday and i will read it. and this Ilana Angel is wrong WRONG WRONG. lori IS dating someone now. someone, who at age 20 or 30s, she NEVER would have dated. he’s short and bald! what she’s trying to say is taht SO MANY women hang onto physcial REQUIREMENTS of WHO/WHAT their “mr right? should be. I ... See MorePERSONALLY know so many of these women. so, Lori isn’t too far off with that type of female personality. they , unfortunately, DO EXIST. and she’s addressing THOSE women. YES, lori is single, 40 somehtng and never been married. WHY take advise from THIS woman on WHO /HOW to get married? as she says, “who better”. she’s appealing to women to NOT make the same mistakes she made. YES, there probably WAS a man named Sheldon she rejected solely becasue of his name. she’s tellinlg her readers NOT to make the same, shallow mistakes she made. and regarding her dating coach not revealing that he’s vested in this book as he wrote her review? admittedly, unethical, dishonest and untrustworthy. I look forward to reading the book soon. but right now, I’mreading a biography on CoCo Chanel, when I’m done with that, I move onto Lor’s book. Lori and I avhe become sorta like “friends”. althogh only via email. she and I are the same, we’re in our 40s, have a child via donor sperm, and many times I’ve been introspective, “how did this happen to me? I always envisiond that I would be married to a wonderful man, and have a housefull of children.” and I must admit, I MUST have played a role as to why I am single. was I also being TOO “picky”. did I disqualify men for stupid reasons? I think Lori’s book is all about that. she also bein instrospective as to how did she end up in her situatuion, 40s, single and having had to resort to a sperm bank to have her child. I DID tell Lori that I’ve rejected men for REAL reasons, ie anger issues, has no patience, narrow minded. those are REAL issues on which I would never compromise and mabye THAT is the real reason many women are single. NOT becuase of superficial reasons like eye color. but , like I’ve said before, I PERSONAlLY KNOW women who reject/disqualify men becuase they have no fashion sense, too short, receding hairline. yes, there are LOTS of women like that. and THEY are the ones who need to get rid of that “checklist” .

Comment by Rosie on 2/10/10 at 3:07 am

Faigy,

Thanks for the post.  You always write interesting comments that make me think about things in a different way.

Rosie:

Good for you for defending you “friend”.  I stand by my opinion of the book.  I feel sad for people who are buying into the rhetoric.  There will be a lot off sad ladies reading this book for Valentine’s Day and Ms. Gottlieb should be proud while she counts her money.  Maybe she can use some of profits to by a box of kleenex for everyone who buys the book.

Thanks for the comment.

ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/11/10 at 1:45 pm

Thanks for this, Ilana. Evan did the same thing in the comments section of my blog!

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/201002/should-you-marry-rude-stinky-creepy-person-you-re-not-perfect-either

And while he is dissing me for writing about this, Gottlieb meanwhile is emailing me about her book, touring, and media appearances. Ah, the ironies!

Bella DePaulo, author of “Singled Out” and the “Living Single” blog at Psychology Today

Comment by Bella DePaulo on 2/12/10 at 6:58 am

Bella,

I’m glad you saw my blog and took the time to write.
I read your blog and loved it.
I never post links, but made an exception here.
Everyone should read your review of the book and conversation with Ms. Gottlieb.
She is a fraud and I am over her and her book.
Bravo to you for calling her out.

Best,

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/12/10 at 11:30 am

Thanks, Ilana! It is good to have this opportunity to comment from a perspective different from Gottlieb’s. It is so disappointing that the media jump all over regressive messages such as Gottlieb’s.

Comment by Bella DePaulo on 2/12/10 at 4:55 pm

Wow, Ilana, you certainly seem to have opened a can of worms with this one.

Bella’s comments reminds me of a response my (now ex-) husband once gave me after I asked him why he thought I would to stay in a marriage that was making me miserable, when I was very happy with my life as a single woman. To quote, “You’re lying. Every woman would rather be in a bad marriage than remain single.”

Flash forward ten years, when I find myself in court in the witness box, testifying at the ongoing alimony trial of a longtime friend and her ex-husband who was representing himself. While cross-examining me, in an attempt to portray me as someone who had nothing better to do with my time than to come to court and make him look bad, he asked whether I ever remarried. When I said no, he replied, “So, basically, you have no life.” I couldn’t help it, I burst out laughing.

Perhaps it’s the expectation that all women are/should be desperate enough to agree to settle, just to have that precious ring on their finger, that leads some men to believe that they need make no effort to be more than someone to settle for. (And, yes, I know I just ended a sentence with a preposition.)

Here’s an idea: Let’s pass a law that requires all women who marry someone for whom they’ve settled, to march down the aisle to the tune of “Sadie, Sadie, Married Lady.”

Comment by Faigy on 2/12/10 at 8:03 pm

Bella,
It is my pleasure.  i would love to talk with you and write a piece about it.  I think it’s sad that this book is such a media sensation, especially at Valentine’s Day, when single women are vulnerable and willing to believe anything.

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/12/10 at 9:27 pm

Faigy,

It’s fascinating to me that people are so supportive of this book, and at the same time, people are so vocal about how much they hate it.  IS it clear what side I’m on?

Thanks for sharing your story.  It’s amazing hoe marriage is interpreted by people.  I love the wedding march to Sadie, Sadie!  I think you’ve started a new trend!

Shabbat Shalom.

Ilana

Comment by Ilana Angel on 2/12/10 at 9:30 pm

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