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Personally I would be interested in a mormon interest group (much like the prospective one described above) that supports Palestinian Arabs than one that supports Israel. Israel already has the support of the US government and its financial and military power. Iran is not threatening Israel except in defense to Israel’s threats to bomb Iran! Iran has not been proven to be developing nuclear weapons but Israel already has them outside of the internationally recognized NPT. Israel regularly attacks it’s neighbors and it’s policy of zionism is a pseudonym for expansionism onto Arab lands.
No, I don’t think we need more support for Israel.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 10:09 am

Where do I send a check? Sign me up. “likeuntoammon”‘s comments are a good reason to lobby against this nonsense. Iran’s president is a Holocaust denier and has said that he wants to destroy Israel. Where’s the other side to this argument? Israel has had nuclear weapons for over four decades and has not used them in the Yom Kippur War or its wars in Lebanon and Gaza. The LDS Church was a supporter of the Zionist movement, and for good reason. I’d love to see Mormons start saying publicly what we all think.

Comment by jake y. on 12/13/10 at 10:36 am

It never ceases to amaze me how people pull these ideas out of thin air and state them as if they were fact. Where does Iran’s pres. say that he wants to destroy Israel? Complete fabrication. If you look at the translation of what he said, even translated by MEMRI, the more pro-Israel agency, he said that the zionist regime will vanish from the pages of time in the same way the soviet union did. He said nothing about wanting to destroy Israel. Holocaust denial is another issue. He can deny all he wants, but he can’t change the fact that it occurred. However, he does bring up a good point that the holocaust has become a reason to support anything Israel does against another nation, no matter how wrong that action may be.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 10:54 am

This is a great start. Unless politics involves old white men like Mitt Romney and Glenn Beck, it’s hard to get Mormons excited about it. As far as I know, no Mormon groups condemned any major human rights violator of the last century, including Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Together they killed close to 100 million people, and not a word from LDS groups. In North Korea right now there are concentration camps and mass graves. Why aren’t Mormons condemning Kim Jong Il? I know that the church might not want to upset China, but come on. Don’t Latter-day Saints care about the torture and slaughter of our fellow brothers and sisters? Israel isn’t really my issue, but I always love to see Mormons get excited about the world beyond the Wasatch Front. Thanks for this post.

Comment by Leslie loves justice on 12/13/10 at 10:54 am

Here’s CNN quoting Iran’s official agency quoting Ahmadinejad quoting Khomeini: http://articles.cnn.com/2005-10-26/world/ahmadinejad_1_israel-jerusalem-day-islamic-world?_s=PM:WORLD

Ahmadinejad has made similar statements numerous times, as have his predecessors.

Comment by jake y. on 12/13/10 at 11:00 am

The CNN article is a good example of how fiction, if repeated enough, becomes fact for a blind world. Here is what Ahmadinejad really said:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025

Ahmadinejad’s similar statements all have to do with the non-viability of a government that exists on the principles that Israel’s government exists upon. He has stated numerous times that the government of Israel, not the people of Israel, will vanish with time IN A MANNER SIMILAR TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION, not by military attack, but by dissolution from within.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 11:29 am

If we’re talking about a government dissolving from within due to illegitimacy, I’d say that Ahmadinejad & Co. are exhibit #1. BTW, here’s what Palestinian leader Saeb Erakat had to say about Mahmoud’s comments: “Palestinians recognize the right of the state of Israel to exist and I reject his comments. What we need to be talking about is adding the state of Palestine to the map, and not wiping Israel from the map.” If you want to keep defending an anti-US, anti-Semitic Holocaust denier, be my guest.

Comment by jake y. on 12/13/10 at 12:00 pm

What I like to defend is the truth no matter where it is coming from, and I like to see all attempts at manufacturing the consent of the American people into the murder of people in foreign countries squashed in it’s infancy. Quoting Saeb Erekat is ok, but he only speaks for half of the Palestinian people these days as he is PLO. And, the PLO has lost the support of the Palestinian people due to the gutlessness of Abbas. The PLO is not the legitimate government of Palestine as seen by the democratic voice of the people of Palestine back in 2006. If you like to continue defending the war criminals and murderers of children in Jerusalem you are also free to do so. The Lord had something to say about Israel 3000 years ago through Isaiah. He said:

2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. 

3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.   

5They hatch cockatrice’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper. 

6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.   

7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. 

8The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Isaiah 59

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 12:21 pm

I wouldn’t put the Evangelicals on a pedestal if I were you; they only support Israel because they just want to convert you and your people and speed up the time when the “rapture” will come.

Comment by Cody on 12/13/10 at 2:25 pm

Leslie loves justice, the LDS church has already condemned such horrible atrocities before in various talks and press releases- Do your research.

You should even read Ezra Taft Benson’s talks on just how evil communism is.

Comment by Cody on 12/13/10 at 2:30 pm

Cody is right. There are various Christian groups in the Jewish lobby, notably Christians United For Israel (CUFI) who are basically passionate for any legislation in the USA that will help to bring about Armageddon.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 2:47 pm

Leslie—“not a word from LDS groups”? I doubt that you could find many such groups—this Church is not so fractionated as most others—our high degree of unity arising from a different Source. Satan has but a little time left to reign with blood and horror on this earth, and our mission is to convert, not to condemn, which is far more productive. But be well assured that as individuals and as a whole we are acutely sensitive to the tragedies that shred our brothers and sisters throughout the world and throughout time.

Comment by dillet on 12/13/10 at 3:26 pm

Here’s one Mormon that absolutely will stand by my jewish friends in the defense of Israel. The Lords sacred covenant with the house of Israel through Abraham is as valid today as the day it was made. As sure as Isaiah and so many others prophesied of the gathering of the Lords covenant people. Jerusalem is indeed a gathering point and a land of promise. Wouldn’t it be great to see the great Temple in Jerusalem built again for my dear Jewish brothers!

Comment by Chad on 12/13/10 at 5:08 pm

Chad. Yes, it would be great to see temples all over the earth. Remember that Palestinians and Iranians are every bit as much our brothers as Jews are though. Their defense and security is also important.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 5:21 pm

Where do I state I don’t support Iranian and Palestinian defense and security? I fully believe that Israel will indeed reconstruct their ancient temple. In no way does this threaten the already fragile liberties of those being oppressed in Iran by it’s current political structure. Nor does it impede the safety of Palestine. You can sit on the fence all day long and say I support both sides equally. But when Mormons believe that Israel will once again worship in their holiest of places. I won’t apologizes for it.

Comment by Chad on 12/13/10 at 5:36 pm

Good then Chad. Most people who talk of being supportive of Israel’s defense defend their murders and atrocities against their neighbors and their warmongering actions against Iran as well. Glad to see you are not part of that crowd.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/13/10 at 5:42 pm

One virtue/fault of Mormons is that we try to see the good in everyone so we falsely impute the qualities of a good person to his/her government. There are nice North Korean exiles running around, but that has no bearing whatsoever on their evil government. That there are wonderful Iranians and Palestinians has nothing to do with the nature of their inept and anti-Semitic governments. Mormons need to get their heads out of the sand and realize that governments like Israel’s are in a different league than oppressive regimes like Iran’s or Hamas’s. If you don’t believe me, ask gays, Christians, women and Jews (in Iran) who are privileged to live in those hellholes. God loves all of us, but the scriptures plainly teach that He doesn’t love all governments or leaders.

Comment by jake y. on 12/13/10 at 5:58 pm

Mark - always find your writing interesting. As I believe is common amongst LDS I feel a particular affinity with Israel (both the country and the people).
While I am a strong supporter of Israel (again - both the country and the people) I cannot say I support everything that Israel does.
Where does that put me and those like me in terms of your support group?

Comment by bdc on 12/13/10 at 6:26 pm

bdc -
Thanks so much for your post. Two points: 1) the Jewish world is full of organizations that are vanity projects, but that is certainly not the idea here. Any LDS pro-Jewish organization should be run by a board of committed Mormons and Jews. I’d be happy to help organize it, but I wouldn’t view it (or want it to be viewed) as “my” support group; 2) if you read my last post on settlements, you’ll see that I disagree with the Israeli government’s settlements policy. It would be a bad idea to form a Mormon AIPAC organization that automatically supports Israel no matter what. The primary purpose of an LDS group should be to draw closer to the Jewish community and to express support for Israel’s survival and security, not to support every Israeli government policy. I hope that this response is helpful. Take care.

Comment by Mark Paredes on 12/13/10 at 6:49 pm

As a student who spent a summer at the Church owned BYU Center in Israel, the Church does have a connection with a segment of the Jewish community, one that is greatly respected there and, in a small way, contributes to outreach here in the US. Hopefully this outreach with the members of American Jewery will only continue to grow. However, the issue of their lending significant support for Israel, official or unofficial, is a complicated one. Among Church members in the Holy Land are many Arabs, including some unable to attend their church meetings because of the Israeli Security wall. These members see the existence of the State of Israel in a very different light. Any open support for Israel or any confusion about the churches neutral position on such a contentious issue risks alienating these members, as well as those in other regions of the Middle East where the church is growing and seeking to gain official recognition. For this reason, I believe the Church would not encourage such an official or unofficial political endeavor. In addition to this, there is the fact that, despite the presence of its center in Jerusalem, the Church is not officially recognized in Israel. When its center was originally proposed over 20 years ago, massive segments of the population, especially among the Haradi and the Settlers, protested, saying that it was being constructed with the sole purpose of converting the Jews to Mormonism. The church was condemned by leading members of the Jewish community, both in Israel and America. Ultimately, in order to build the center, the Church accepted an agreement that it would not proselytize to anybody, Arab or Jewish, in Israel and the West Bank, - An agreement which does not exist for any of the other Christian sects in the Holy City. Despite the popularity of the LDS Center in Jerusalem, that agreement is still in effect and, if broken, the State of Israel is free to confiscate the multi-million dollar center. With such an agreement,one that the Church has kept to the letter all this time (all of its native members in the region have been converted and baptized in other countries), it is easy to understand the Church’s reluctance to further support the Israeli government. Will the Church support cultural, humanitarian, and social outreach in the region, definitely. Organizations which encourage and build upon such endeavors would be welcomed and do great good. But institutions with a political emphasis, whether official or unofficial, due to these concerns are not not likely to be supported, or even encouraged, by the Church in the near future.

Comment by CM on 12/13/10 at 8:05 pm

CM - thanks for your comments. As someone who spent two years in Israel as a U.S. diplomat, I am well aware of the BYU Jerusalem Center and the wonderful work it does. My proposal was primarily directed at Latter-day Saints in the U.S., not in Israel or the Middle East, though there are certainly some wonderful contacts to be developed in Israel that the BYU Center cannot develop precisely because of the role it plays. It has been my experience that BYU officials in Israel have been unable to establish meaningful relationships with many key Israeli leaders, and my proposed organization would help to expand LDS contacts in Israel, albeit informally and unofficially. There is so much more that Mormons could be doing to work with Israeli organizations, and by and large they are not doing it.
For example, we have had much success working with the Orthodox community in LA. This has not happened in Israel for many reasons. It helps, for example, to have LDS interlocutors who are fluent in Hebrew and who immerse themselves in the Orthodox community. 

With all due respect, your argument about the Israeli government doesn’t make sense. The Church signed an agreement not to proselytize so long as such activity is prohibited by the government of Israel, not in perpetuity. Since the government of Israel does not prohibit proselytizing (indeed, there has never been a law against it in Israel), the Church is free to proselytize all it wants. We don’t do so because our leaders have chosen not to, not because the Israeli government is preventing us from preaching. At any rate, if our goal is to obtain official recognition from said government, expanding our contact base there can only help.

There are always reasons not to reach out to other groups, and Mormons always seem to come up with a lot of them. There were a lot of naysayers when the Church established a Jewish Relations Committee in LA, when I became an executive director in the Jewish community, and even when I started this blog. The sky hasn’t fallen yet, and I think that anyone who understands the Jewish community in the U.S. knows that there is much to do in the way of outreach that the Church cannot do on its own. No one knows this more than Jewish leaders, and they’ve been pushing this idea for years. Thanks again for writing, CM, but I don’t see in your post any sound reason not to conduct more unofficial outreach to Jews in the U.S., Israel, and other countries. Instead of taking counsel of our fears, we need to continue an outreach process that has been very successful until now. Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it.

Comment by Mark Paredes on 12/13/10 at 9:10 pm

Jake,
Granted that many governments in the middle-east are oppressive to their own people but that doesn’t leave any excuse for Israel’s government. The racism of Israel’s government is inherent in its zionist structure. As such they are not really worthy of the title they often get in western media as the only democracy in the middle east. What other democracy in the world requires a loyalty oath from only the arab population in its borders? What other democracy in the world has upwards of 10,000 political prisoners? What other democracy in the world steals water on a regular basis from neighboring nations?
You are right that the Lord likely doesn’t approve of most governments in the world, but I’d think that the Israeli government, along with our own government, are likely on that list. In fact, I can’t think of too many governments that don’t make that list.
One other issue with your post is the term, “anti-semitic”. That term is likely not what you are looking for as semitic people include both Jews and Arabs.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/14/10 at 9:51 am

Boy, likeuntoammon is quite misinformed.  He likely thinks Russia, Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, etc. aren’t being run by dictators who all by the way are colluding together for the destruction of the west.  Very misinformed.  Iran political leaders have very clearly said they want Israel to be destroyed, and they will be the ones to do it.  They haven’t been simply/only saying they want it to “pass away” as the Soviet Union did.  That is false propaganda, and simply lying.  Irans spiritual leaders are also on record of saying the same things, and not only that but that THEY want and WILL be the ones to bring back their “god” their “Imam”.

As to the article….  Good article, but I don’t think it’s really necessary for some big mormon activism.  We do our part.  What we need most is to weed liberal perversion of the Gospel from our ranks.  The anti-conservatives and anti-jews such as likeuntoammon.  Those who use a little truth to tell great lies, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, who follow a perversion of what the Restored Gospel has always stood for, that is Democracy, Freedom, etc., all principles of conservatism, not socialism, communism, or the Fascism of Iran, etc.

Comment by leeuniverse on 12/14/10 at 1:28 pm

likeuntoammon, some other things.  You are clueless that you are spouting “propaganda” on this page.  Using words such as “Zionism” “racism” “stealing water”, etc. is all false propaganda put out by racist Muslims and ignorant Muslims and their followers.  If you were being bombed all the time, would you not put up a fence?  If you were being attacked all the time by a group of neighbors, wouldn’t you once in awhile attack them back?  I live in Nevada, is California “stealing” my water when they use Nevada water?  On an on….  The misrepresentations and lies you believe of Israel are EXACTLY why there is so much hate, wars, etc.  Israel is a state surrounded by a bunch of ignorant fanatics who are lead by people who love power and money, and use hate, fear, etc. to stock hate, fear and racism of a neighbor who is more powerful than they.  It’s the same kind of hate and ignorance toward the US, but simply worse.  Remember also, your buddy’s call America the “Great Satan”, and Israel the “little satan”.  You have no clue that you are believing lies told by wicked men of this world, and you call good evil, and evil good.  Shame shame.  Just because Israel and America is more powerful than most, and try’s to help the week of the world, doesn’t mean WE are the bad guys.  We are simply responding to the bad guys, and Israel does the same, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

Comment by leeuniverse on 12/14/10 at 1:43 pm

Lee,
Whenever the Iranian leaders have spoken of something being destroyed, it is either a warning of defensive retaliation to an offensive threat from Israel, or speaking of the government of zionist regime in Israel being “vanishing from the pages of time.” There have never been any offensive threats against Israel from Iran whereas on the other hand, Israel is constantly threatening to bomb Iran. You have drunk the cool-aid that the boys in power want you to drink. There is a huge human rights abuser in the middle-east right now and it is Israel. Israel stands in open rebellion to numerous UN Security Council Resolutions demanding immediate withdrawal from the occupied territories, a criterion that used to make the US go in and attack sovereign nations in the bad old days.
Here is what Ahmadinejad has said in 2007:
“The Soviet Union died peacefully but that does not have any affect on what will happen in there [Israel]. The Zionist regime will either go two ways. They will peacefully be disbanded and the Holy Land will become a democracy like our good friend Russia. Or the country will forcefully take on itself like Romania. He [Refering to Nicolae Ceauşescu]did not seem to know (or care) what was happening to the Romanians and the people got sick and tired of this to the point they got rid of the fake regime [Ahmadinejad Denounces Communisim] by force. We do not want this option. We want a peacfully let the people choose what they truely want and everything will go right.”

I am not anti-jew. Interesting that you should immediately spew that out of your mouth the moment you begin to speak of me. I never refer to your type as anti-arab or anti-persian. I am opposed to the policies of the zionist government of Israel. Any sane person should also be opposed. I don’t want any Jews killed. I want Jews to enjoy real democracy that includes all the people living in their nation. I want Israel to cease killing kids and others in it’s own lands and in the occupied territories. I want the lying and deception used by our government and other governments to cease as they are secret combinations bent on destroying the freedom of all nations so that the powers that be can get all the gain and glory they want through the elimination of life and freedom. This is what is at stake here. I am not a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I am one who follows the admonition of the Lord in D&C 98 in renouncing war and proclaiming peace. Our nation and the nation of Israel are not in the practice of doing that and thus I speak up.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/14/10 at 1:53 pm

Lee,
I see you’ve been reading all the wrong books, especially if you really believe that the US is the strong guy who is just trying to help all the little guys in the world. We are the nation described in 3 Nephi 16:10. I’d recommend a few books to you such as, “Deterring Democracy” by Chomsky or “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” by Perkins. Good luck with getting your world rocked and finding out that our government doesn’t have our or the rest of the world’s best interests at heart, as I found out and had my world rocked many years ago.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/14/10 at 2:00 pm

Ammon, I don’t know who’s crazier, you or Chomsky the self-hating Jew. “There have never been any offensive threats against Israel from Iran?” How about the bombing of the Israeli Embassy and Jewish center in Buenos Aires by Iranian agents? How about the missile salvos and kidnappings by Iranian-controlled Hizbollah? The thousands of rockets launched into Israel by Iranian-controlled and -armed Hamas? Even better, how about the American Embassy, Marine barracks, and French Embassy blown up in Beirut by Iranian agents in the early 1980s? The Americans kidnapped by Iranian puppets in Lebanon later that decade? You’re out of your mind if you think that Iran is a docile, peace-loving country. If it is eventually attacked, it will richly deserve it. In the future, try to discuss things you actually know something about.

Comment by jake y. on 12/14/10 at 4:41 pm

Jake,
Ok. #1) No one has proven Iran or Hezbollah to have done the Argentina bombing. Both have emphatically denied involvement. Usually, terrorist organizations like to brag about their feats of death. Not deny them.

Try to talk about something I know about? If there is something you know about the bombing in Argentina, you had better talk to the police down there, as they are a bit short on clues right now.

#2)Iran does not exercise any significant degree of control over Hamas and Hezbollah. You would be hard pressed to find any serious commentators who would assert that. No more than the US controls Israel. We give Israel 3 billion dollars a year for weapons, but they don’t march to our orders. Similar situation with Iran and the two H’s.

#3) The rockets launched into Israel are a shadow of the rockets launched the opposite direction. Want me to talk about something I know about? Did you happen to know that in November of 2008, Hamas was honoring a ceasefire with Israel with virtually no rocket fire into Israel since about June of that year? Then it was Israel who broke that cease fire by killing 6 Hamas in cold blood, unprovoked. The rockets started back up again, only after Israel broke the ceasefire.

What? you didn’t know about that? Come on man, we’re only supposed to be talking about stuff we know about here.

#4) As far as the Beirut bombing goes, that happened in the 80’s right? 1983. What was happening in Iran in 1983? We, the US, were giving assistance to Saddam Hussein in his vicious offensive war against Iran, in which hundreds of thousands of Iranians were killed. I guess they had some cause to be somewhat upset with the US at that time wouldn’t you say? If someone was giving weapons to a group that was attacking the US how long do you think that someone would be pain-free?

The fact remains that Iran has never gone on an offensive war against another country in it’s existence as a state. There is something I know a little about.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/14/10 at 5:18 pm

Ammon - this will be my last post, because I can’t argue with a Chomsky-like naif. I’m embarrassed that someone who calls himself a Mormon is an apologist for the world’s leading sponsor of terror. If the ayatollahs in Teheran aren’t Gadiantons, then the term has no meaning.

1) Argentine prosucutors identified the bombers and charged Iran in the bombings. The Iranian defense minister was implicated as well. Only former President Menem’s parliamentary immunity saved him from being charged with covering up the evidence. No one has evidence? Nonsense.

2) You’re as wrong as can be about Hamas and Hizbollah’s relationship to Iran. Every serious intelligence analyst (and I don’t mean Chomsky) believes that Iran calls the shots on their military and terror operations. Why do you think that Iran has remained on the US list of terror-sponsoring countries? Try to find a serious Western analyst who denies the Iran-HH connection.

3) “The rockets launched into Israel are a shadow of the rockets launched the opposite direction.” Really? When has Israel launched thousands of unprovoked rocket attacks into Gaza? The only way to support your nonsense is to lie.

I am aware of Hamas’s claim that Israel violated the ceasefire in 2008, and I believe that Israel explained that it did so in order to prevent imminent attacks from the terrorists who were killed.

4) “The fact remains that Iran has never gone on an offensive war against another country in it’s existence as a state. There is something I know a little about.” Along with the punctuation rules for possessive pronouns, it is apparently something you do not know anything about. Taking our diplomats hostage in 1979 and bombing the U.S. and French embassies and Marine barracks were acts of war, and should have led to retaliatory attacks against Iran. Bombing the Israeli embassy was also an act of war, and could have led to an Israeli attack as well. The fact that these countries have exercised forbearance doesn’t mean that no acts of war took place.

You can argue with yourself now, Ammon. I take comfort in the knowledge that there can’t be more than a handful of Mormons who agree with you on the peaceful nature of Iran. Adieu.

Comment by jake y. on 12/14/10 at 6:39 pm

I guess we’ll just have to disagree then. I hope you are not itching for a war with Iran. This is apparently the desired outcome for those who put forth the propaganda you so heartily embrace.
I wish you would try some of Chomsky’s very good stuff, not an unreferenced interview. It is impossible to not see where he is coming from because he is backed to the hilt by documented evidence that you can fact check yourself. 
You seem to be allowing yourself to be blinded by your personal beliefs above where you tacitly approve of Israel breaking the ceasefire with their explanation that they were trying to prevent a terrorist attack. The doctrine of preemption has gained a lot of ground in the last few decades. However, it is a doctrine not accepted under international law or by the precepts of self-defense acceptable to the Lord by D&C 98 for those who follow the Mormon faith. Besides, that was not the first time Israel broke the ceasefire. They had also broken it numerous times before, but Hamas had been patient. Israel wanted to attack Gaza, so they pushed until something broke.
Criticize my punctuation (usually a technique employed by those who cannot adequately answer their opponent’s arguements) all you like, but it appears you are drunk with the kool-aide of the secret combinations our religion teaches us to avoid.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/14/10 at 10:32 pm

1- I have to say this based on other comments made: When was the last time you heard a Jew say “we will not stop until palestine is wiped off the face of the Earth”? I cant think of a single time. Now when was the last time I heard someone from Palestine say that? TONS. The President of Iran, TONS! If my neighbors told me that they were going to kill me, I think I’d buy some guns and try to defend myself too. If my neighbors started throwing rocks through my windows, First I’d call the cops and if the cops wouldnt help, I’d use my right to defend myself. Same thing Israel is doing. Anyone who calls this propoganda obviously hasnt seen any clips of the UN meetings or news reports from when Pres of Iran went to Gaza Strip to have a rally with Hamas and totally threatened Israel. Its not like people are making this up. THEY SAY IT THEMSELVES!!!
2- The LDS church doesn’t get involved in political issues period. If you want to know why, look at our church history. Mormons are the only faith in America where a government official made a law where it was legal to kill them just for being Mormon. Our government turned its back on us while Mormons were getting raped, murdered and driven from their homes. Thats why they had to leave Illionois and go cross the plains to Utah. Why would we even want to try to get involved in a political system that has constantly turned its back on us. Also, we dont want to give any of our haters a reason to try to accuse us of mixing church with state. Look at Prop 8 in Cali. The church members were encouraged to take action on their own accord with their own money and next thing you know, Mormons are getting attacked. Other religions did the same thing but it was the Mormons who people were going after. Thats how the church opperates. The church teaches its members right from wrong and its up to the dictates of our own concious as to what we do with it. If a member wants to start a pro Israel group than good for them.
3- During Prop 8 when all of the people were going after the Mormons, where was this Rabbi defending us? Did he start a pro Mormon group to help us out? That would have been awesome if he did!

Comment by MB on 12/15/10 at 2:57 pm

MB,
Regarding the last time you heard Jews talking about getting rid of Palestinians: This is something that is just not advertised a lot in the history books most people learn from, but there is a very well documented historical collection of quotes from numerous Israeli leaders about “transferring” Palestinian Arabs away from their current homes and sending them to neighboring Arab countries or killing them. For example, here is Ben Gurion:

“The compulsory transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples. . . We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty——this is national consolidation in a free homeland.”

You can find a hundred more such quotes from numerous Israeli leaders here:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html

It is important to note this, because to do so is to recognize that the entire zionist state was founded on pushing the Arab occupants out of their homes, as was accomplished during the Nakbah in 1948… essentially ethnic cleansing of the Arab population by Israelis. This is why the Arab population is threatened by even the existence of Israel under it’s current zionist/expansionist constitution. If we understand history a little more fully, mysterious things start to make sense. You can’t just accept our current dogma and believe that Israel is simply surrounded by crazed and suicidal maniacs, with no rational reason for their behavior.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/15/10 at 3:42 pm

How many of you have heard of this? Jundallah, a terrorist organization, just killed two of Iran’s nuclear scientists. The organization has had secret funding and encouragement from the CIA to destabilize the Iranian government via numerous terrorist activities through the years as reported by ABC, the Daily Telegraph and Seymour Hersh. Iran is now blaming the USA for this. They probably have good cause. Does anyone here know about the terrorism we promote against Iran? Sorry to sound arrogant here, but I would be happy if I at least gave you something to ponder. Read about US involvement with this terrorist group here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundallah#United_States

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/15/10 at 5:32 pm

Jake,
Here is some more information for you to consider. You decry Hezbollah above as a terrorist organization, but this article makes some assertions which seem to counter that. It turns out that an organization named Islamic Jihad bombed the American Embassy in 1983, and Hezbollah has denied any involvement. At the time, the USS New Jersey was bombing Lebanon and this Islamic Jihad claimed to have intelligence from Soviet sources which stated that those attacks were being planned and ordered from CIA operatives within the Embassy, thus compromising their diplomatic immunity and giving cause for the arguement that the Embassy was a legitimate target. It turns out that the CIA was indeed in the building when it was bombed. Check out the article here:

http://www.counterpunch.org/lamb04062007.html

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/16/10 at 5:29 pm

To likeuntoammon,

Wow are you misinformed. I am a Jewish guy who lives in Utah. I think overall the LDS Church supports Israel and all of the LDS people I have been in contact with share the same views.

Comment by Fred on 12/17/10 at 10:56 am

“Misinformed” is all I get here. And yet, I know I have been researching this issue more than most LDS people I know. Most LDS people I know rely on what they are spoon-fed by the media apparatus in the USA. This is the same media apparatus that is owned by multi-billionaires and was proven by the Frank Church Senate investigation in the 1970s to be heavily infiltrated by the CIA. You have to go outside of the box a bit in able to get truly informed on this sort of an issue. I am not anti-Israel. I like Jewish people and have friends who are Jewish. However, I will point out the works of darkness and murders of Israel’s government as well as those of my own government as frequently as someone else speaks in favor of those same government policies within my hearing distance.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/17/10 at 12:12 pm

With my misinformation and poor understanding of Israel and the middle east I see today that the Israeli military fired on a Gaza fishing boat and killed a 15 year old boy:

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=343039

Israel is constantly firing on Palestinian fishing boats without any return fire. Why would a fisherman try to fight a gunboat anyway? And this is the sort of thing you would expect your fellow mormons to support?

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/17/10 at 1:51 pm

Dear likeuntoammon,

As I said you are very uninformed. Israel is defending herself. First of all these so called Palestinians are Arabs who were thrown out of Jordan years ago. Here is the solution. The Arabian countries are so rich from producing and selling oil. They should take some of that money and buy or build land for their brothers. Or they could absorb the Palestinians into their own countries and there would finally be peace. But here is the problem. The Muslim countries do not want peace, they want Israel destroyed and are using the Palestinians as a tool to accomplish this.

Several years ago around Israel there was a very large sea turtle that was washed up on the sand. The Palestinians caught this turtle, then tortured it to get its blood hot and then drank its blood thinking it would make them potent. And these are the people who want to live “peacefully” with the Israelis? Give me a break.

Israel is the only Democracy in that area. Every time Israel defends itself it gets criticized. Israel gives up land for peace and gets more missiles dropped on it. Israel is surrounded by enemies. What about the Muslims who are suicide bombers, hide behind children so they won’t get shot and cut throats of their enemies?

So Israel may make a mistake now and then so what! Israel is fighting for her life.

God bless Israel and we support her right to exist!

Comment by Fred on 12/18/10 at 12:41 am

Mr. Paredes,

Thank you for another wonderful column. Your insight, excellent writing skills and thoughtfulness, week in and week out, speak volumes. I have great respect for the Mormon church, mostly because of how you represent them. Please keep posting here. Thank you Jewish Journal for giving Mr. Paredes this voice. REFRESHING!
Restful Sabbath to you,

Comment by Karen on 12/18/10 at 4:17 pm

In recent years the Sunday School lessons in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints present the gathering of Israel as the missionary program of The Church with no mention of Jews, Israel, or Orson Hyde.  The teachers in our Ward seem to follow the manual although in a recent lesson in my parent’s ward there was some material on Orson Hyde.  Over time if the lesson material becomes the accepted way of looking at the gathering there will be less of a connection with Israel and less inclination to stand with Israel in a public way.

Comment by Jerome on 12/19/10 at 12:22 am

Fred,
You base your opinion of a nation on the actions of some who killed and ate a turtle? So that’s what makes a nation bad? I could tell you a story about some people in America who rape prisoners and drop bombs on wedding parties in Afghanistan. Does that make all of America bad?
Israel is fighting for her life because her actions have enraged her neighbors. The forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and the murders of many others don’t sit well with them. Her so called democracy is nothing of the sort but rather is a racist, haven for Jews, where everyone else is a second class citizen.
I would urge you to check out the history over there a little more and pay a little less attention to the US corporate propaganda machine.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/19/10 at 12:26 am

likeuntoammon, do you believe that the Jews are the ancient covenant people? do you believe that the Jews have a promised land? do you know what the biblical boundaries are? do you believe that when the Messiah comes during the battle of armageddon it will be to save his ancient covenant people from destruction? do you believe that same Messiah will re-establish them to their ancient covenant lands? will you then dispute with Him who has a right to be there? and just maybe those who’s land it isn’t might be removed, remember it was done anciently. so tell me ultimately who will inherit the land? these are just a few of the reasons I deem what you say as drivel

Comment by Allan on 12/21/10 at 11:01 pm

Well Allan, if you think it is drivel to say that Jews are killing their Arab neighbors and breaking cease-fire agreements with them… if you think it is drivel to notice that Jews are murdering 15 year old fishermen who are just doing their job in their own coastal waters… If you think it is drivel to notice that Israel steals Palestinian water (a very serious crime in that arid land)... if you think it is drivel to notice that Israel has around 10,000 political prisoners, many of them so called, “administrative detainees” who are held indefinitely without charge and are rarely seen again… then that is your prerogative.
We as Mormon’s have to realize that just by virtue of their being the anciently designated chosen people of the Lord, does not give them the right to murder at will today. Israel has been in trouble with the Lord off and on through history and it should be no surprise to the student of the scriptures that their current condition is also repugnant to the Lord. The Lord spoke against the people of Israel in Isaiah 59. He said:
2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

5They hatch cockatrice’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

6Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

7Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

8The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

I believe in the prophecies too. Israel will again return to the Lord some day. But, now they are about as far from His heart as they can get.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/22/10 at 1:28 pm

Mr. likeuntoammon,

Israel is defending herself as I already mentioned. All of the Mormons I come into contact with support Israel. Israel is surrounded by enemies and must take drastic action to survive. The Muslim countries do not want peace, they want Israel destroyed and are using the Palestinians as a tool to accomplish this. I have a better idea. Israel is a poor country. Why not condemn Saudi Arabia, Kuwait Iraq and Iran who do nothing but sponsor terror and oppress their people. Unlike Israel that is developed, their entire economy runs on oil. If they can’t sell oil what could they contribute to the world?
They are a bunch of trillionaire oil rich fat sheiks and kings that contribute oil to the west while they oppress the entire middle east, their people living in misery while they rake it in. They then take the money and sponsor terrorist organizations to target Israel and the west. that’s the Arab trademark. claim they’re your friend then stab you in the back.

Palestinians belong in Jordan. Why won’t their Arab brothers help them? You know why.

Comment by Fred on 12/22/10 at 1:49 pm

Fred. It’s a good thing we don’t decide what’s good and bad by majority rule then isn’t it. Why do you think all Palestinians belong in Jordan? Because that is one of the countries they were forced to flee to when the Israelites terrorized them out of the homes in 1948?

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/23/10 at 10:23 am

I am another Jew who will speak up.
Israel earned a very long laundry list of strikes against it. It is one of the few places where all Jews are not treated equally. Women, in many communities, are segregated from men on buses and in other public accommodations. It is a place where women are segregated and mistreated at the Wall. Where conservative and reform Jews are not given recognition. It is a place where a minority has political control over defining who is a Jew. This same minority does not serve in the IDF or pay the same taxes. This minority receives income, housing, schooling without ever working. Israel makes mistakes in its treatment of migrants. Israel can sometimes act poorly to its own citizens. Isreal sometimes forgets that ALL Israelis come first. This includes it’s Arab citizens and all the rest.

Having made this critique of Israel I want it to be clear. I love Israel. I am a Zionist. I want Israel to be strong. I want it to perservere. My views of Israel do not match that of present government. I am more in line with Labor, the old socialists and other left leaning parties in Israel that (re)established the nation. In addition, I want to see a strong Palestine. It will be good for Israel, Jordan, Egypt and the Palestinian people to finally have, for the first time in history, their own nation.

To Likeuntoammon, straight up, you are an anti-semitic bigot. The evidence is in on Iran’s foul play around the world and in the Middle East.

To the very very very little that I know of the Mormon community - I have expressed elsewhere in the past concerns that I have. I still see a divide on many issues. Most of them are political - how the LDS appears, and I use that word carefully, appears to allign itself with ultra conservative causes. Most Jews are left leaning or Left Liberal. Many of us look at our holidays from this perspective. Passover for many, among other things, was the first labor movement which expressed that everybody deserves a break from work. It was a desire to escape from slavery and take that Friday night/Saturday break. I can go on.
I don’t mean to offend anyone (okay, likeuntoammon can feel offended)as couple of people who posted in the past said I did and then emailed me some pretty nasty notes directly.
On this note I will say, Happy Holidays and Good early Shabbat Shalom!

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/23/10 at 11:26 am

Phil,
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I get that all the time. Because I criticize Israel and point out our inconsistencies in pursuit of a war with Iran I am an anti-semitic bigot (which is an interesting term since the semitic people include Jews and Arabs). Sigh…

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/23/10 at 11:31 am

likeuntoammon, the historical use of the expression and the reason why it was coined in the first place was to draw attention to the Jewish people through the most negative perspective possible. It was a label of poltical parties in and around Austria and Germany. It followed on the heals of the Dreyfus Affair in France from which the term was developed. Don’t play. You know this to. Anti-semitism is the irrational hatred of the Jewish people. It does not matter that Arabs and others are semitic or follow the semitic languages. The expression is specifically about the hatred of the Jewish people. Read, A Lethal Obsession by R. S. Wistrich.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/23/10 at 11:47 am

Then you don’t know me at all. I don’t have any hatred, irrational or rational for Jews. I just want their Zionist government to follow international laws, stop murdering Palestinians and pay attention to UN Security council resolutions that they stand in defiance of.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/23/10 at 12:11 pm

Mr. likeuntoammon

Are you really a Mormon? If so you are an exception as every Mormon I have been in contact with love the Jewish People and Israel. If you are a Mormon I am glad there is only one of you.

Comment by Fred on 12/24/10 at 3:33 am

Fred,
Yes I am a Mormon. A very devout one at that. I love the Gospel with every fiber of my soul. As part of my religion, I am taught the following:

13Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

(D&C 123)

Therefore, I bring the dark works of both Israel and my own country to light whenever I have opportunity as they are not heavily advertised otherwise. I repeat again though, that I love the Jewish people, just as I love other people on this rock. I have no hatred for them, I just can’t support their murders and secret combinations. Pretty simple.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/25/10 at 2:27 am

Mr. likeuntoammon,

Keep in mind that everything that Israel does is in response to their enemies bombing, and attacking her. Israel may make mistakes and of course in any war or attack innocents may get harmed, but if Israel would be left alone and not attacked peace would prevail.

It’s like you hit me in the face and I knock you down and then everyone gets on me for knocking you down.

Solution: Arabs and Muslims stop bombing, killing, attacking Israelis and finally accept Israel as a country.

Comment by Fred on 12/25/10 at 3:26 pm

Fred,
That’s a very common misconception. Israel is constantly acting offensively, as well as in defense or in reaction to attacks. For example, in 2008, there was a ceasefire in place from June to November and Israel unilaterally broke this ceasefire many times while Hamas was actually honoring it… until Israel killed 6 Hamas unprovoked in November and then Hamas retaliated.
The case of Gilad Shalit is a good example too. Everyone thinks that he was taken captive out of the blue by a radical Palestinian group, when in reality, Israel kidnapped two Hamas the day before, the Muamar brothers, one who was Hamas, and the other a respected physician in the Palestinian community. Immediately after Shalit was taken captive, Israel attacked Gaza mercilessly and most of the world thought it was a reaction to the Shalit capture. However, most of the world doesn’t know what Israel does to Gaza on a regular basis, that isn’t a reaction to any provocation.

Comment by likeuntoammon on 12/25/10 at 11:32 pm

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