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Thank you for writing these three followups.  I tried to give responses in the comments section where his article was originally posted but the comments never showed up. You’ve done a very nice job of explaining these issues in detail.

Comment by wurzel on 12/09/11 at 11:51 am

Call it Baptism or immersion that act of doing this in the context of a Christian or Mormon ritual is hurtful and speaks to a kind of cultural genocide. So many of those Haulocaust victims perished instead of surrendering their religion or converting. Some were given the opportunity to say they were not Jewish and they could have lived. They chose not to. Now Mormons want to convert them anyway.

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/09/11 at 1:51 pm

Phillip, I appreciate your thoughts on this sensitive topic. But you’re missing the point of what Mark was writing. There are no forced conversions. Look at it like this. If I were baptized for you right now, would you consider yourself a member of the LDS Church? No, you wouldn’t. Because you didn’t choose to join. The same goes for deceased persons, just as Mark wrote. It’s still there choice on whether the proxy baptism has any efficacy.

Comment by Kelly on 12/09/11 at 3:01 pm

Another fine example of Mormons refusing to understand their offenses. Calling it “immersion” instead of baptism is just wordplay and changes nothing. Your religious “obligations” end, or become offensive when they involve people who have not consented to them—people who have their own beliefs that do not involve Mormonism. Your sense of religious duty does not exempt you.

And Kelly, it doesn’t matter that it’s not “forced conversion”.  It is still offensive that Mormons foist their religious rites upon the legacies of those who are unable to consent, especially those who have died because of their own religious beliefs and culture.

Comment by Angsty on 12/09/11 at 4:09 pm

I have Jewish ancestors who lived in 17th Century Sweden. I am justified in performing religious ordinances that I believe will bless them.  If my religion has NO authority from God, this will surely not affect my ancestors in any way.  If you share the same ancestors, you can seek their spiritual welfare through your own prayers, if any. If you don’t think they can exercise their own choice in this matter, then the ordinances I believe in will have no effect at all.  My ordinances coerce no one. They are meant to honor, not denigrate, my Jewish ancestors.  If you are irritated about what you think goes on in my head, you need to find something more realistic to worry about.

Comment by Raymond Takashi Swenson on 12/09/11 at 4:49 pm

Let me offer something for Jews to consider. Mormon belief in ordinances for dead ancestors has motivated the greatest work of finding, preserving, and making available to all the records of our common ancestors.  The Jewish Genealogical Society directly benefits from this. And those Christians who discover their Jewish roots are going to recognize the Jews as distant cousins who deserve respect. The long term impact of these records on attitudes towards the Jews will be very positive, and that will benefit the long term survival and prosperity of living Jews in America far more than any supposed insult to the dead.

Comment by Raymond Takashi Swenson on 12/09/11 at 5:01 pm

I am tired of Jews telling others how to practice their faith. As a Catholic I was outraged when Jewish leaders met with Vatican officials to demand that our reinstated Good Friday prayer be eliminated because it offends them. The Vatican diplomatically told them to pound sand, and I’m glad to see that Mormons are essentially telling Jews the same thing. IT’S NOT YOUR RELIGION, FOLKS!! I don’t attend Mormon temples, and have no interest in what goes on inside them. I agree that Mormons shouldn’t go around baptizing other people’s ancestors, but even if they do, so what? Only people who are insecure in their own faith have a need to go around bashing other belief systems. Get a life.

Comment by Jack F. on 12/09/11 at 5:41 pm

It is a Jewish Newspaper

Comment by Phillip Cohen on 12/09/11 at 5:47 pm

Hey Jack, the prayer you’re referring to has Catholics praying to G-d for Jews to recognize Jesus as Messiah and calls us faithless, treacherous, and blames us (once again) for his death.  So, perhaps when YOUR church, responsible for the murder of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Jews throughout the millennia, follows your suggestion to stop telling other people what to do and how to believe, we will do so in kind.  And we’re not insecure in our faith—we live in fear because of the rampant anti-Semitism in this world that is perpetuated by your Church.

Comment by Natalie on 12/10/11 at 2:31 am

Anyone who believes that a Mormon baptism for the dead takes away the deceased’s consent and makes the deceased a Mormon, takes the rather ironic position of 1) misunderstanding the Mormon doctrine while 2) believing in the efficacy of the misunderstood doctrine.

Besides being offended by a doctrine that says that eventually all people should be Mormon, if you really believe that Mormon baptism for the dead is a bunch of hooey, why care that we do it?

For a non-biased perspective on Mormon baptism for the dead, read this article from a renowned non-Mormon Irish journalist: http://www.byui.edu/onlinelearning/courses/hum/121/Baptism.htm

Comment by Derek White on 12/10/11 at 10:48 pm

It’s difficult for anyone but Jews to understand the extent of their aversion to anything that might change their culture, or worse, convert them to another religion. I am certain that this resistance is in the Lord’s plan, and has been the means by which the Lord has preserved them as a people. What a great loss had all the Jews blended in to the Christian religions, and been lost as a people – but the Lord would not have it.

Comment by John Zimmerman on 12/11/11 at 8:05 pm

I agree with Derek. I’ve always told people that in the afterlife, if it turns out that Mormons are right, then the people who had proxy ordinances performed for them will be very glad that those ordinances were done. If it turns out that Mormons are wrong, then we’re just wasting our time doing all those ordinances, and they wouldn’t have any effect on anyone anyway, because they were just made up silliness. If Mormons are wrong, God is not going to keep people out of heaven because they had Mormon ordinances performed in their name. Unless He’s a lot different from what I’ve always learned.

Comment by Margo Mead on 12/14/11 at 11:44 am

Now John Zimmerman has it. I am LDS, but I also believe that the Jewish people are God’s chosen as it states in the Holy Bible. There is a reason that the Jewish faith has endured and prevailed. Do I know it? No, but our Father in heaven does and when He is ready for us to understand what His plan is, He will tell us. Until then, you follow your faith, I’ll follow my faith, Baptists will follow their faith, Catholics, Buddhists, Atheists, and so on.

Comment by Selina on 12/14/11 at 11:46 am

The important issue here is accepting that other people have their own faith and beliefs and learning to live harmoniously with each other. No “God” I know, whether He be Allah, Buddha, The Great Spirit, or Heavenly Father wants His children to fight against each other. He or She would want us to live in peace and harmony. Learn to live with each other people and learn to respect one another’s beliefs. Accept apologies and learn to forgive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erqJF_ppqbk&feature=share

Comment by Selina on 12/14/11 at 11:47 am

Jonathan, if you read the entire article you would see the point where it is stated “The baptism for a dead soul only becomes a true baptism if he accepts it. ”  This would mean, you do still have free choice after you die. This is not a forced ordinance. The dead souls may never even know that an ordinance has been done for them until they CHOOSE to be baptized. I promise that these ordinances we are performing are only offending the living, but being offended is a personal choice. Remember “it is a thing of naught.” only an immersion on our part, not a baptism if these souls never choose to seek for it for themselves.

Comment by Brittany on 12/14/11 at 12:06 pm

Mormons simply want to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to accept our theology whether in life or death.  Most Jews who have lived on this earth and passed away never even heard of Mormons.  How can giving them an opportunity in death be disrespectful?  The geneological research and proxy ordinance work we do is time consuming and often done at great personal sacrifice for no earthly gain.  We honor those dead with our service and our only motivation is love.

Comment by Matt Champneys on 12/14/11 at 12:31 pm

As a life-long Mormon, I fail to see why this ever became an issue. We are taught to do our own family history research and do the work in the temple for our own ancestors. To me it sounds like someone got lazy and decided to just get the easiest list of names to submit.

As for the Jews, LDS teachings are clear that when Jesus comes again, He will personally oversee the teaching of His gospel to His people. I think at that time, Jews who choose to convert to Christ can do the temple work for their own ancestors, including Holocaust victims. That fits with the LDS teaching that temple work is a family matter.

Comment by Lee on 12/14/11 at 12:32 pm

Per Gamaliel, in Acts 5:34

34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named aGamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people… 
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Comment by Esteban Cafe on 12/14/11 at 1:31 pm

This is now a non-issue. Jewish leaders have met with Mormon leaders and settled the issue. Now if you try to submit any names other than your DIRECT ancestors, you ARE NOT allowed. Even submitting names of uncles, aunts and cousins is not permitted. The Jewish agreement forced changes in the whole system. I don’t agree with the decision as it has been pointed out that doing any ordinances for anyone has no effect unless they accept them, just as a Buddhist prayer on my behalf has no effect on me if I don’t believe in a Buddhist theology.
But what has happened has happened and Jews should be satisfied.

Comment by James on 12/14/11 at 1:33 pm

If I found out that some foreign religion were doing some ritual for my parents to get them a better situation, I would think, how kind of them to worry about my family’s souls. Only if I believed that their religion were the right one and I wanted my parents to suffer in the hereafter would I oppose it.  Do these Jews think the LDS Church is the true one of God? If not why worry about the Mormon hocus-pocus? It will be interesting in the hereafter to be confronted by those Victims if the LDS Church is true and you helped stop their getting the proxy(?) work they needed. But then if they are really Christian, they will forgive you.

Comment by Mecki on 12/14/11 at 2:25 pm

Thank you so much for this article! It can be very hard to determine how to approach certain subjects with people who are not members of the LDS church, but this has given me a lot of insight as to how to begin. I love the term ‘proxy immersion’ and will definitely use it in future conversations about baptisms for the dead. Again, thank you.

Comment by Rebecca on 12/14/11 at 2:26 pm

Isn’t the Jewish practice of Mikveh a ritual immersion and a cleansing (such as before Yom Kippur - the day of atonement) with a common origin to the Christian ritual of Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins?

I’m no expert in this but there seems to be a strong parallel and more than likely a common origin of the practice if traced back far enough into history.

Comment by 7UD4 on 12/14/11 at 3:18 pm

My daughter just had surgery and a Jewish friend said he would say a prayer for her. I was sincerly flattered and honored by this gesture. I believe that his offering when done in this spirit of goodwill and context has been heard by HIM. She is doing well with all of our prayers offered to the Almighty. I ask that our Jewish friends believe me when we say we are not out to “steal” converts or to try to take their Jewishness in any way. For those Jewish people who have given opinions here I would like to thank you posting your feelings and encourage further dialog.

Comment by Ian on 12/14/11 at 3:37 pm

I think the misunderstanding over proxy ordinances for Holocaust victims comes from the Church’s agreement to cease performing the ordinances for them.

Another concern expressed in the negotiations that I don’t see here is that people in the future doing genealogy research might see in Mormon records that these people were Mormon and thus lose their Jewish identity in that way. I’m not sure that is a legitimate concern because I believe Mormon records include the proxy ordinance data.

Comment by John K on 12/14/11 at 8:32 pm

The temple ordinances are either fictitious or genuine.  If they are fictitious, what does it hurt you, Rabbi?  Mormons would just be playing make-believe in the privacy of their temple, a make-believe that would be an expression of honor and respect.

On the other hand, if the ordinances are genuine, then you, Rabbi, are standing in the way of your ancestors entering God’s kingdom.  That’s a pretty big risk just to keep people from expressing love toward your ancestors.

Comment by Ryan on 12/14/11 at 10:40 pm

In my Mormon opinion, all these Mormon comments, though logical, don’t address the problem explained by Phillip Cohen & Angsty, who express legitimate concerns. Pondering on the spirit of their remarks will invite the Spirit to touch the heart and open an understanding of their messages. That is preferable to comment after comment rehashing with the same logic (free agency is not being violated by baptising their dead) to demonstrate the propriety of baptizing their dead ancestors. This to me is offensive as it shows a complete disregard for their points of view on the subject which is most sacred to them – their religion and their identy as a people.

Comment by john zimmerman on 12/14/11 at 11:48 pm

In my Mormon opinion, all these Mormon comments, though logical, don’t address the problem explained by Phillip Cohen & Angsty, who express legitimate concerns. Pondering on the spirit of their remarks will invite the Spirit to touch the heart and open an understanding of their messages. That is preferable to comment after comment pointing out why baptizing Jews is not improper. This to me is offensive as it shows a complete disregard for their points of view on the subject which is most sacred to them – their religion and their identity as a people.

Comment by John Zimmerman on 12/14/11 at 11:54 pm

Basically here’s the deal.  God has told us what to do.  We’re supposed to seek out our ancestry and perform these ordinances.  We we’re supposed to fudge the numbers by using the Holocaust registries for mass numbers any more than we’re supposed to use a phone book.  We’re supposed to search out OUR OWN ANCESTORS.  A commandment.  No choice there.  And as has been well pointed out by other comments, if this this malarkey then this has no effect…  the names of these people were never published as “These are Mormons.”  The genealogical data simply lists the work as done—no reference to whether it was accepted.

Comment by Brent Taylor on 12/15/11 at 1:04 am

But if the work is binding, as we do in fact hold the keys, commandment and power to do so, then again as said, a lot of souls will be grateful.  Take your pick.  We’re right, so we’re right to do it within the bounds the Lord has set.  Or we’re wrong; in which case it means nothing.

Comment by Brent Taylor on 12/15/11 at 1:05 am

My grandmother waited years on the other side for me to do this work for her and be sealed to her.  That knowledge is spiritual witness.  I know.  Others done (by other people’s genealogy work than mine) have occasionally provided similar manifestation; mostly not.  Even those that did, I don’t recall their names nor find the same satisfaction as with my own grandmother. I have a testimony of the validity of this great work for our dead.

Comment by Brent Taylor on 12/15/11 at 1:05 am

typos alert:

We weren’t supposed to fudge…

if this is malarkey

Comment by Brent Taylor on 12/15/11 at 1:09 am

to John Zimmerman and other Jews that worry:
Actually the situation is already taken care of (as I pointed out in my comment above). Although many comments have been made that “it doesn’t matter if baptisms/immersions are done on someone’s behalf if they don’t accept them…” the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has ALREADY CHANGED its policy and no names can be submitted for baptism/immersion unless they are your direct ancestors. So all Jews can breathe a deep sigh of relief that their ancestors are SAFE, no “conversions” are done or can be done “on the sly” or otherwise…

Comment by James on 12/15/11 at 1:23 pm

The Mormon Church did changed their policy SPECIFICALLY out of respect for Jews and any others that would be offended.
End of subject.

Comment by James on 12/15/11 at 1:24 pm

I don’t understand what the fuss is all about.  If our religious beliefs are not of God, there is no validity to them so it’s just so much wasted effort on our part.  If they are of God which I fully know them to be, then they are an act of love to those who are deceased.

Comment by Bertha Mueller on 12/15/11 at 5:44 pm

@Nickidewbear,

Israeli law designates Messianic Jews as Christians. Interfaith dialog would be best served if we all speak the same language. Though this is a Jewish site, it is an English-language site. The Hebrew terms you use are not common enough to be listed in Wikipedia, so zero communication occurs. You allege a verse taken out of context, but provide no reasoning for why you think it is out-of-context. Regardless of the context, it reflects an ancient practice which is no longer observed.

Comment by John on 12/15/11 at 10:19 pm

John, I’m not here to debate Israeli law or the Hebrew language as used in everyday life.

Comment by Nicole Czarnecki on 12/16/11 at 11:17 am

What is the Jewish community so afraid of?  Are they not taught to love their neighbors and respect their beliefs?  No one is disrespecting the religious convictions of ancestors by loving them and embrassing them as venerated grandparents.  Shame on the name-callers and stiff-necked who have no love and respect for the heart-felt convictions of fellow children of God.  Neither the Jews nor the Mormons will be the only ones in heaven!

Comment by Dolores on 12/17/11 at 3:10 pm

I am a member of the Church and of Jewish parents.I feel I have the right to offer those I hold most dear, who have left this earth, the opportunity to hear the Gospel and for their Spirits to be free to choose.  This has caused my relatives to stop speaking to me.  This is painful, but as a member of the Church I know I have made the right choice and the sacrifice is worth it. To be sealed to my parents and grand- and great grandparents is the greatest gift I could give myself and them.I hope the two faiths can learn to trust and rely on each other as I have found no ill feeling towards the Jewish faith or Jewish people in all the time i have been a member.

Comment by Nicole G on 12/18/11 at 2:39 pm

@ Nicole G - Nice comment, Nicole. It’s a reminder that while Jews are averse to association with Mormons, Mormons happy to be associated with Jews. When Mormons receive their Patriarchal Blessings, their lineages are declared to be of one of the tribes of Israel either through blood or adoption. Indo-European Mormons largely tend to be Ephraim and Latin Americans and Pacific Islanders tend to be of Manasseh.

Comment by John on 12/18/11 at 7:58 pm

Yes, John, I had not thought of my Patriarchal blessing when reading the article or comments.  Mine does acknowledge that my blood line is of Judah, my blessings and lineage flow to me from Ephraim.  So I can say with much joy Happy Hanukkah and Happy Christmas!!

Comment by Nicole G on 12/19/11 at 4:27 am

Oh, A.G - who made you the spokesperson for her ancestors. She has their DNA flowing through her and knows them better than you. Ancestors are not being compelled to become Mormon - you choose to be offended rather than listen to the repeated explanation that baptism for the dead only offers and does not draft anyone into a belief, or away from their Jewish heritage! They will have the right to accept or reject her actions. Read ! and Listen !  Don’t waste you energy by being offended when no offense is intended!!! 
**And for those who are spitting out words like cult, witchcraft and demons - Do you know really what you are talking about? What vulgar nonsense!

Comment by Dolores on 12/21/11 at 5:34 am

@Adam Kratt - No, your definition of a cult is a religion that you don’t like. Should we apply your criticism of walking on water to Moses parting the Red Sea or Elijah calling down fire from heaven? Calling an organization a cult is a serious thing, and if you look at a real professional’s definition of a cult, you will see that normal people from any of the world’s major religions hardly fit the category:

1 The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

2 Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

(cont)

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:26 am

(cont)

3 Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

4 The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel. For example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry — or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth.

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:28 am

(cont)

5 The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members For example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity.

6 The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

7 The leader is not accountable to any authorities.

(cont)

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:31 am

8 The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

9 The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

10 Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:33 am

(cont)

11 The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

12 The group is preoccupied with making money.

13 Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

14 Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

15 The most loyal members (“the true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

(cont)

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:34 am

(cont)

Characteristics of a cult above by Dr. Janja Lalich and Dr. Michael D. Langone, as cited in:

Lalich, Janja and Tobias, Madeleine, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships, Bay Tree Publishing (2006), ISBN10 0972002154, ISBN 13
9780972002158.

Comment by John on 12/21/11 at 7:35 am

Objection to baptism for the dead is like objecting to my praying for anyone not of my faith—just a matter of degrees in difference. If I pray to the God I worship to bless someone of a different faith, does that degrade or violate that person or their faith? How could it be construed so? What if I utter this prayer in my house of worship, use the person’s full name, or don a ceremonial robe as I do so? Why is this not my right to do, especially if I believe under God’s law I cannot in any way influence or certainly coerce that person by my prayer? I believe the objection is not doctrinal but cultural, and mostly an underlying sense of offense to my faith in the first place.

Comment by George Angerbauer on 12/22/11 at 12:02 pm

How might a Mormon would feel if I publicly performed therapy-by-proxy on Joseph Smith, claiming that the martyred Prophet of the LDS church must have been insanely deluded?

Among *my* ancestors are martyred Jews whose souls were elevated to the angels when they sanctified the Holy Name by accepting martyrdom rather than baptism.

I do acknowledge that your intentions are kind-hearted. I certainly don’t think immersion-by-proxy will have any effect on my ancestors. So, intellectually I have no objection.

But viscerally, I feel insulted. I am disgusted by this insult offered my ancestors.

Comment by Becky Zoole on 12/22/11 at 3:24 pm

Without the coercive elements of cult behavior, the lighter signs can be applied to anyone. I can say you are obsessed with sex or money, but they are meaningless charges because everyone uses money and procreates.

Comment by John on 12/23/11 at 12:45 am

@Becky - that’s the point. I wouldn’t care if you performed therapy by proxy for Joseph Smith. Mutual respect means not caring about what you do in your private personal beliefs.

Actually, I am active with various other Jewish groups, and I have to say this is the first time that I have ever seen so much bitterness come out. You ruin your reputation in the community with such vitriol.

Comment by John on 12/23/11 at 12:47 am

@John: Working with Jewish groups hasn’t raised your awareness about interference with our belief concerning our ancestors.  We reaffirm our ancestors lives on the day of their death each year and that is our sacred duty.  You and your coreligionists are excluded from this memorial and you just don’t understand that this interference is a terrible insult to the Jewish people.  Your comment to Becky show your arrogance and lack of understanding and lack of compassion for Jews.  Please stop your meddling and insults.

Comment by Dani El on 12/26/11 at 3:00 pm

It sounds like everyone who has commented is really saying that this concept as practiced by the “mormons” may be a real/truthful supposition. 

Otherwise why not just ignore it?

Amazing…

Comment by Dandini on 12/27/11 at 11:20 am

@Dandini: If you “got it” you would understand that Jews do not convert dead Mormons to be Jews to get them into “heaven.”  I, respectfully, ask Mormons to not “mess” with us after we are dead.  I don’t ignore it because I feel the disrespect of the doctrines that are used, even if used incorrectly.  They are not Jewish “real/truthful suppositions” but yours.
I ask that Mormons restrict their religious practices to only fellow Mormons and not to Jews or people of other faiths.  Show us that respect.  I will not “convert” dead Mormons.  Do not “immerse/convert” dead Jews, even your own ancestors.  God decides who will reside in heaven, not Mormon doctrines.

Comment by Dan El on 12/27/11 at 1:24 pm

Dan,
That position has been taken by the church.  LDS temple ordinances are restricted to family members. 

Even viewing it from a legal aspect, does my brother have a right to take his inheritance and then oppose my equal inheritance?  Then why is my having LDS temple ordinances performed for my Jewish ancestors offensive?  Are you denying me my heritage? 

-others—as far as LDS ordinances being listed in genealogical information…that is only on LDS websites.  If any other website lists it, it is because they chose to adopt it from the LDS listing, not because it is now a “legally binding” ordinance….and it definitely doesn’t change their heritage.

Comment by Alan bar Warwyzn on 12/30/11 at 1:17 pm

@Alan: It is obvious that your arrogance keeps you from understanding that interference with beliefs of others is hurtful.  I will ask God to forgive your “interference,” and arrogance when I celebrate our annual High Holy Days, since you show ignorance of the hurt you inflict on others.
I believe, neither you nor your religion are superior to any other religion and that acting superior is the most deadly of sins.  And I forgive you of that sin and of your insults and will ask God to do the same.

Comment by Dani El on 12/30/11 at 8:34 pm

@Alan: I do not deny you your inheritance nor your heritage.  I deny you the actions that interfere with other people’s beliefs and cause abuse and hurts to them.  If you believe that your ancestors were inferior to you and need correcting, that is the height of arrogance and I believe a great sin.  They lived their life as they believed.  You have no right to try to change that.  Doing that is hurtful to me and , although i can’t speak for all Jews, hurtful to most Jews.

Comment by Dani El on 12/30/11 at 9:11 pm

pros·e·lyt·ize
   /ˈprɒsəlɪˌtaɪz/ Show Spelled[pros-uh-li-tahyz] Show IPA
verb (used with object), verb (used without object), -ized, -iz·ing.
to convert or attempt to convert as a proselyte;  recruit.

(Random House Dictionary)

Comment by Karen on 1/02/12 at 1:15 am

The reason that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints does this baptism by emerison, is because this ordiance must be done by one having the proper authority to do so. It can’t be done in the Spirit World, or in our next estate.  There must be a live body to do it. If this is not done on the earth, then it can never be done?  It is an earthly ordiance. My ansestors were not Jews, but they also never had the opportunity to be baptized by proper authority.  I believe everyone should have their opportunity to choose. It is a matter of fairness to all.

Comment by Cathryn Froehlich on 1/10/12 at 10:49 pm

Read Dr. Michael Newton’s books on the afterlife. He is a psychiatrist who has hypnotized many clients and found out what happens after death and what goes on before we are reincarnated. Fascinating books. Read his book called JOURNEY OF SOULS. What I am trying to say is that all religions are the same and that we all experience the same thing at death and there is only ONE GOD. Religion is just a way to have comfort while on earth and we are familiar with our own religion, but if we do any wrong on Earth we have to account for our actions after death when we go before a judging council. No Jesus, Allah or whatever. Our quest on Earth is to love one another, learn, and do no harm.

Comment by Fred on 1/14/12 at 11:07 am

@Cathryn Froehlich:  I am living now.  I have chosen NOT to be baptized by your Church.  When I die, I do NOT wish to to be baptized by any authority in your Church.  It is insane that you think that your ancestors need to be baptized after their death because they lived before the creation of your Church. 
Your church is NOT the ultimate authority on the afterlife!  If your Savior returns to earth and declares that you are correct, then you will have that authority.  Until that time, leave all the dead alone and at rest.  Your intolerance is only exceeded by your sin of arrogance.  I will pray for your forgiveness.

Comment by Dani El on 1/14/12 at 12:40 pm

@Dani El:  Is it insane to believe that one who did not have the opportunity to accept or reject baptism before they die to be given that choice posthumously?  In my opinion, it is one of the most comprehensive and distinctive (gospel) principles that exist.  In the end, we are talking about personal beliefs, so what do you have against us having our own beliefs?  If we are wrong, it has no efficacy or bearing on you, but if we are right, then you are fighting against God who has commanded us to perform this work.

Comment by Ryan on 1/14/12 at 1:51 pm

Dani El, I think you and I have fulfilled our obligations to rebuke the sinner and to strive for peaceful relations with the goyim.

It is frustrating, trying to gently and lovingly lead others away from the horrible sins of insulting others, of arrogance, of disregard for the feelings others, which our sages have called worse than stealing.

I am afraid that the best we can do now is to remember that it is our great mitzvah to be happy. I am going to stop following this conversation, and I suggest you do so as well.

“They are on a good path and the path of the righteous, who are insulted but do not insult others, who hear others shame them and do not respond” (Kitzur Shulchan Aurch 29:4)

Comment by Becky Zoole on 1/14/12 at 3:41 pm

@Becky Zoole:  You seem to forget who has compromised here and who is not gently or lovingly but arrogantly disregarding the feelings of others.  We are refraining from this work so as not to offend you.  Don’t pretend you have taken the moral high ground.

Comment by Ryan on 1/16/12 at 9:09 pm

@Rayn continued: This “practice” of Posthumous Immersion is viewed as persecution of Jews and persons of other faiths as unjust and arrogant, because you put yourself as superior to the others.  I view this as a sin and I pray for your forgiveness.  The moral “High Ground” is to view others as equals and respect another’s beliefs without trying to make them “better” by conversion to your religion.  You, your fellow coreligionists and many other religions continue this and, although you do not kill us as the Muslims do, you continue accept the practice of proselyting and posthumous conversion.  Suspension of the practice is NOT the same as stopping it forever.

Comment by Dani El on 1/17/12 at 1:37 pm

@Dani El: Baptism for the Dead affords the deceased a CHOICE to accept or reject baptism since they did not have the choice while alive. How is providing a choice construed as persecution, unjust, arrogant, or superior? By saying that you pray for my forgiveness, you are “putting yourself as superior to” me. If I insisted that you cease a practice that I disagree with, would you cease? If I insisted you cease forever, would you comply? You cannot honestly say that you would abandon one of your religious practices because another religious group disagreed with it, and, yet, we have gone out of our way and agreed to limit one of our religious practices to accommodate your feelings.

Comment by Ryan on 1/17/12 at 6:23 pm

@Dani El:  It appears your follow-up comments (or other’s) have been deleted.  We’ve established that you think offering someone a choice of religion is akin to persecution.  You’re saying that freedom of religion is persecution!  Wow!!  I understand now why there is nothing that I can say that will enter your mind.  I testify that choice/agency is God’s plan and that elimination of choice is Satan’s plan.  Be well.

Comment by Ryan on 1/18/12 at 8:22 pm

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