This really got me angry.  This sounds like Islam!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3491944,00.html

I’ve taught in religious schools where men and women worked together.  Is that going to now stop??

This kind of news story is ridiculous. Anger would really be an overreaction, and I don’t think you have to worry about major social changes tomorrow. Obviously anyone committed to the degree of lifestyle of that society or to the authority of the rabbi would be in agreement and with no hard feelings or coercion.

When the headline says that ‘rabbi… calls for segregation of sexes” etc., it is not obvious until that “Aviner made the remarks in his weekly article in a synagogue pamphlet entitled, “With Love and Faith.” in response to questions on the limits of interactions between the sexes from a religious point of view.

Not that he didn’t mean what he said. But the context of the remarks is not that the Rabbi put out an initiative or a threat or a demand or is in a position of coercion. And having co-ed interactions in a professional setting is permitted in that context.

In the religious world men a women do live separate social lives to a degree that is foreign to the secular, and the advantages and disadvantages are arguable. The Jewish form of this segregation is nothing like the Islamic form.

Both Islamists and Jewish segregationists approach the issue in a sexist manner.

If men are so stimulated by a glimpse of a woman that they might do something they’d regret, this is not a womens’ problem—it’s a men’s problem and men need to correct their own actions.

Let men wear blinders instead of forcing women to cover up—or at least watch where they look.

“If men are so stimulated by a glimpse of a woman that they might do something they’d regret”

Wow. Dennis. The story of my life. LOL(-:

Actually, the way you see this is the sexist one. For one thing, this is not a ‘men’s problem’ and not a woman’s. Among believing and practicing Jews it is a mutual value. There is no specifically feminist movement that says what you do unless you go out to New Agey type Havura movements and so forth, but not in a place like Beit El for sure.

On one of the Inspired DVD’s, Sarah Yocheved Rigler touched on this issue with the story of her as a religious newbie asking a more experienced woman why the Kotel had separate sections for men and women. The answer was “Could you focus on your prayers with a cute guy standing next to you?” The answer was obvious to her and we can all understand this is not a one way street.

However there is nothing in the strictest Jewish practice to compare to the Islamic level of sexism. If you think you have the stomach for it, watch the link off the Terrorism Awareness Project called The Violent Oppression of Women in Islam and see if you have ever, ever heard of anything like this anywhere in Judaism.

It is honestly not a sign on open-mindedness and tolerance to denigrate Judaism. Remember, a liberal is someone who is too open-minded to take his own side.

Post Edited (01-08-08 16:33)

“Both Islamists and Jewish segregationists approach the issue in a sexist manner”

Noting a similarity between overly pious, sexually repressed, religous fanatics is not a “denigration”. It’s an astute observation.

Neither is taking note of the fact that the gematria is bullshit. I remember all the hysteria in Israel back in 1984. Everybody went around babbling about “tashmad this” and “tashmad that”. You know what happened? Instead of total destruction, I still had to go and harvest the melon crop that year.

Giveret Kreiselman, says it’s cute for greeting cards, but not much use for anything else. But then she’s a scientist. The thesis has yet to be proven or provide any tangible results. It does however, have a certain Nostrdamus-like charm that can’t be denied.

Post Edited (01-08-08 17:25)

Of course it is impossible to disagree with your observation regarding “overly pious, sexually repressed, religous fanatics”. You do realize that you are skewing the issue. If we simply call them “pious, sexually disciplined, religiously committed individuals” maybe that would be clearer.

Next, regarding the comparison itself you have to address first the quality and quality of it, otherwise your statement is at least trivial and more likely meaningless.

Ref: to quote a great man

... However there is nothing in the strictest Jewish practice to compare to the Islamic level of sexism. If you think you have the stomach for it, watch the link off the Terrorism Awareness Project called The Violent Oppression of Women in Islam and see if you have ever, ever heard of anything like this anywhere in Judaism.

Without an answer to that question comparisons are meaningless. My answer is that no comparison is possible. A fruitful discussion can be made on the fact that Judaism launched the first revolutionary blows in the direction of women’s rights in history.

Next you have to address the issue of objectivity. If we all just want to say that the place we are standing is the center and anything to the left or right of us is the extreme, that is also meaningless. That is true on a personal level, but may also be true on a societal or cultural level. There is a theft demographic, murder, molestation, abuse, addiction, sadism demographics, human trafficking demographics, and I promise you that everyone within those considers themselves human beings with mostly good qualities. There are also pre-and extramarital sex demographics and ditto for those.

That is why not only Torah law but the concept of law in general is considered a godly phenomenon, that is a standard that is based externally to all of the possible variations of human choices.

I think the gematria discussion is taking place on the other topic. Once again, anyone can be silly but the real test is quality and quantity. If a gematria fits into the puzzle and has explanatory power, it should be respected. I’m not much into gematrias myself as into Torah codes, but I was recently impressed with a presentation by Rabbi Moshe Armoni on gematrias. I heard him speak in English but the site is in Hebrew.

Apropos of nothing, Rabbi Armoni is a student of Abir Warrior Arts (also also here, a system said to be free of idolatrous elements in other fighting systems.

David Horowitz is a right wing moron over-compensating for having been a left wing moron. Any scholarship(and I use that word loosely) that this guy has the temerity to claim, is again nullified by the constant grinding of his largely discredited, ideological axe.

“...You do realize that you are skewing the issue. If we simply call them “pious, sexually disciplined, religiously committed individuals” maybe that would be clearer.”

Thats sophistry, Rifkah. You are a fanatic and your beliefs are extreme, racist, mysogynistic, elitist and dangerous. Your interpretations of religous texts, are exactly that. Intrpretations.  No more, no less. The fact that you and a small percentage of people who dress up like the advisors to Polish noblemen from the 17th century, while their women are shaving their heads to protect themselves from marauding cossacks lend it credence, doesn’t make it any less sick and demented than the warped, murderous, spiritual chicanery of Osama Bin Laden and his merry band of suicide-bombing, virgin fetishists. The fact that you don’t see the similarity, is understandable and at the sametime, irrelevant, insofar as the larger society is concerned.

Post Edited (01-08-08 19:11)

Everyone has different degrees of observance of halakha. To call the rabbi’s appeal to observe the law of segregation “ridiculous” (Ben Plonie) or get angry over it (TeahcESL) or infer the men of his community get excited by a glimpse of their women (Web Guy) shows your intolerance and ignorance of the observance levels of others.

I don’t think the rabbi gets mad at your personal business or calls it ridiculous. I’m sure his community is very pious and has wonderful people who love to follow their leader’s recommendations and live happily by them. To throw stones and make fun of their observance level and interpretation of halakha is very sad, disrespectful, intolerant, immature and disappointing. You all have something to atone for this year.

Post Edited (01-08-08 20:09)

“..and interpretation of halakha is very sad, disrespectful, intolerant”

No more so than they deserve and no less than the amount of derision and contempt that they show conservative, reform Jews, and secular Israelis not to mention everyone else.

As far as atoning for sins is concerned, daffy duck,  she who lives in a glass house, shouldn’t throw stones.

Whats the matter? Can’t find another cause to glom onto in order to display your meritorious service medal?

Post Edited (01-08-08 20:22)

JewJew
I know that you did not read my response very carefully. Come to think of it, you have done this before. But I will forgive you, if you ask my forgiveness after re-reading my post. And don’t forget, there is no atonement without my forgiveness.

This is even more stupid because we don’t disagree, just like last time. What I said is that making a headline news story out of what is just a routine statement of the frum point of view in a synagogue newsletter is ridiculous.
[hr]
Now to Dave (as usual).

... Point 1 is the ad hominem attempt to change the subject (as usual) from the facts under discussion (a comparison of Islamic and Judaic treatment of women) into discrediting the owner of the website, with absolutely no factual backing for the claim (as usual). Whatever you may say about Horowitz is irrelevant because of…

... Point 2. I don’t care for the moment about either David Horowitz or Islam in general or even terrorism. My link was to a video documentary of the subject at hand, narrated by Noni Darwish who grew up In Egypt, her father having been decorated posthumously for terrorist (fedayeen) action against Israel. She knows. Adapted from a booklet by Phyllis Chesler, career feminist, formerly married to an Afghani. She knows.

So to re-repeat, watch the effing video and then state that there is a comparison to be made between the holy, elevated, progressive, civilized, dignified, self-esteem enhancing Jewish treatment of women and the Islamic. And if you say the answer is yes, then you haven’t watched the video or are lying, neither of which would be a surprise. I welcome your admission of error.

As far as the rest is concerned, I do understand why sam thinks there are too many words going on. The difference between us is I back up everything I say and you are what they call “all hat and no cattle”. The desperate rants of a failing civilization tearing down those who have stood strong for centuries. The Jewish Renewal has already begun, but it is among their society, not yours. Go console yourself with a nice tattoo.

Post Edited (01-08-08 22:33)

“..Point 1 is the ad hominem attempt to change the subject (as usual) from the facts under discussion (a comparison of Islamic and Judaic treatment of women) into discrediting the owner of the website, with absolutely no factual backing for the claim”

As usual, you either have your head up your ass or your dissembling, Rebitzen.

The Terrorism Awareness Project is an invention of Horowitz and his propaganda screed, FrontPage

“...Today, the David Horowitz Freedom Center (DHFC) launched the second flash video of its Terrorism Awareness Project. What Every American Needs to Know About Jihad reviews the history of recent terrorist attacks against America and the West and reveals the objectives of radical jihadists. The video is a dramatic four-minute warning that the agenda of jihad is global domination and that a world war has already begun. TAP will be emailing this video to more than one million Americans and tens of thousands of university students and professors. (To view it, click today’s graphic or click here.)”

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={31464E3C-1ECD-4910-9C35-17CB31B3EC9F}

As far as; “discrediting the owner of the website” is concerned, “Horror-shits” discredited himself along time ago, without any help from me.

“David Joel Horowitz (born January 10, 1939) is an American neoconservative writer and activist. The son of two life-long members of the Communist Party and once a prominent supporter of Marxism as well as a member of the New Left in the 1960s, Horowitz later rejected Leftism and is now a prominent spokesperson for right-wing politics and causes.”

Academia

Some stories Horowitz has used as evidence that U.S. colleges and universities are bastions of liberal indoctrination have been disputed.[21] For example, Horowitz told the story of a University of Northern Colorado student who received a failing grade on a final exam for refusing to write an essay arguing that George W. Bush is a war criminal.[22][23] A spokeswoman for the university said that the test question was not as described by Horowitz and that there were non-political reasons for the grade, which was not an F.[24] Horowitz responded that the student had indeed received an “F” on the exam but had appealed her grade on the course and been awarded a “B”, and that the questions as supplied by UNC were evidence of indoctrination, not education, as claimed.[25][26]

Horowitz also claimed that a Pennsylvania State University biology professor showed his students the film Fahrenheit 9/11 just before the 2004 election in an attempt to influence their votes.[27][28] Horowitz later acknowledged that he had not been able to confirm this story.[29][30]

Finally, Horowitz has referred to the case of a student named Ahmad al-Qloushi, whose professor allegedly responded to an “irrational[ly]” “pro-American” essay by failing him and threatening to visit the Dean of International Admissions (who had the power to take away student visas) to make sure he received regular psychological treatment.[31][32] His professor admits suggesting al-Qloushi visit a counselor, but for anxiety resulting from events that had happened to al-Qloushi in Kuwait 10 years before rather than for his politics, and denies mentioning the Dean.[33][34][35][36]

Horowitz has also come under fire for material in his books, particularly The Professors.[37][38] For example, Media Matters for America claims that only 48 of the 100 (not 101) professors listed were criticized for in-class behavior and activities,[39] despite Horowitz’s claim that he makes “a very clear distinction between what’s done in the classroom” and “what professors say as citizens.”[40] The group Free Exchange on Campus issued a 50-page report in May of 2006 in which they take issue with many of Horowitz’s assertions in the book and describe what they see as factual errors, unsubstantiated assertions, and quotations which appear to be either misquoted or taken out of context.[41][42][43]

Jacob Laksin has since issued a lengthy, three-part response to this report on FrontPageMag.com.[44][45][46][47] which, among other things, claims that Free Exchange on Campus misrepresents itself as being “disinterested observers”. According to Laskin, “The groups comprising the Free Exchange coalition are chiefly distinguished by their partisan commitment to left-wing political causes and their support for the politicized and one-sided academic status quo.” Laskin cites member organizations, Campus Progress (which Laskin claims is funded by George Soros), the American Civil Liberties Union and People for the American Way as examples. Laskin also claims the report “misrepresents and distorts the arguments of The Professors in order to attack the book and its author, and is not above fabricating evidence to make its case,” and that while the report does identify some errors in Horowitz’s book, they are trivial and “in no way affect the substantive arguments of the book or the conclusions drawn in the individual profiles of the professors included.”[48]

Allegations of bigotry

Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz’s Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 “right-wing foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable”. Berlet accused Horowitz of blaming slavery on “‘black Africans … abetted by dark-skinned Arabs’” and of “attack[ing] minority ‘demands for special treatment’ as ‘only necessary because some blacks can’t seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others,’ rejecting the idea that they could be the victims of lingering racism.”[49] Responding with an open letter to Morris Dees, president of the SPLC, Horowitz stated that his reminder that the slaves transported to America were bought from African and Arab slavers was a response to demands that only whites pay blacks reparations, not to hold Africans and Arabs solely responsible for slavery, and that the statement that he had denied lingering racism was “a calculated and carefully constructed lie.” The letter said that Berlet’s work was “so tendentious, so filled with transparent misrepresentations and smears that if you continue to post the report you will create for your Southern Poverty Law Center a well-earned reputation as a hate group itself.”[50] The SPLC refused,[37] and subsequent critical pieces on Berlet and the SPLC have been featured on Horowitz’s website and personal blog.[51][52]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz_(conservative_writer)

“, dignified, self-esteem enhancing Jewish treatment of women “

This is a matter of opinion, not an empirical fact, no matter how many times you’d like to characterize it as such. I opine to the contrary, sh*tbag.

Stop whining about ad homs. So instead of an ad hom attack on one person, you decide to deride and disenfranchise whole groups of people and somehow you think you hold the moral high ground? You better stop smoking that sh*t. It’s done made you null and void.

Post Edited (01-08-08 23:11)

Whoops, you did it again, Britney. I can’t believe how much effort you have put into punking out of admitting you were wrong.

This is at least the third time I will try to re-focus you on the topic you are trying to hijack, for no reason at all other than to vandalize the topic. It’s not as if you even have anything substantive on which to disagree.

back to the last post:

Whatever you may say about Horowitz is irrelevant because of…

... Point 2… My link was to a video documentary of the subject at hand, narrated by Noni Darwish who grew up In Egypt… Adapted from a booklet by Phyllis Chesler… formerly married to an Afghani.”

So to re-repeat, watch the effing video and then state that there is a comparison to be made

As far as Jewish treatment of women goes, you can’t call it an opinion if it is based upon ignorance and bigotry. Most religious Jewish women are not Chareidi if that is a factor for you, and feel really great about their status as Jewish religious women, especially if they were formerly secular. Here is a video that portrays some, not on that topic but they are there anyway http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4EMnsRYQNI
After about the 3 minute mark

Are you fu*kin’ high, Rebitzen? The video is being promoted by the Terrorism Awareness Project. Therefore, ideologically biased, ie. no credibilty, next question sh*thead.

“you can’t call it an opinion if it is based upon ignorance and bigotry”

Your opinion about my opinion is based on what? You don’t agree with it? Thats nice, but its not based on any empirical value system. Is based on your value system, which I reject. Was there anything else Rifka?

The video contains names, dates, places, facts, figures, evidence and testimony. Where is the place of ideology in that? Do you know what ‘ideology’ means?

Is all the smoke and noise to hide your failure to put forth any evidence for your characterization of Jewish treatment of women?

Or is it in a larger sense to protect your fragile emotional defenses of your rejection of the authentic Jewish value system and civilization?

The video contains names, dates, places, facts, figures, evidence and testimony. Where is the place of ideology in that? Do you know what ‘ideology’ means?

First of all, I never trust video evidence of anything. The Pals love to show video of Israeli soldiers doing this or that. I routinely reject these things as to be not credible as they are taken out of context and then used as a form of agiti-prop. I reject this video for the same reason. When such a video is presented by such an obviously ideologically biased website, they are trying to illicit a certain reaction from their current readership and to provoke and outrage prospective newbies, the context or the facts be dammed. Hence, no crediblity. I don’t condone what Islam does to women, but to make comparisons between that and what you would do to women and use that as some sort of half-assed defence for your mysogynistic views is not only disingenous, it also doesn’t say much about a religion that feels it has to compare itself to the lowest common denominator in order to validate its misguided precepts. How many different ways do you want me to explain this Rifkahleh?