I noticed that the Jews and the Armenian genocide thread has been closed.

This was very premature, considering the continuing controversy and debate over whether or not the US legislature should define the massacre of 1.5m Armenians during WW1 as “Genocide”. (It appears that the motion is slowly losing support).

I find it very disturbing, in all seriousness, that we so-called “Jews” have again become a flash point.

I ask, will we never learn to keep our noses out of everyone else’s business? We should look in the mirror before we comment on others.
We are losing over 50,000 people yearly due to assimilation, inter-marriage, and simple lack of interest.

Let me further explain my attitude, for those who care.

Just today, in the liberal New York Times, is an interesting article
about the dilemma that US Jews face in the genocide issue.  (See the Thursday 101807 edition).

Apparently, several heavily Jewish districts in and around Boston, Mass,
have withdrawn their membership in a major national Jewish organization, over the dispute. They, according to my reading, want the organization to
agree that the murders were genocide.

As in the Glendale-Burbank cities in Southern California, they have
a sizeable Armenian and Jewish population.

Some Jews believe that any time is right to define the slaughter as genocide, no matter who it aggravates, and the political repercussions, both towards the US, and to some extent Israel. (Turkey is an important
Muslim ally of Israel).

Reference is made to the Holocaust, which of course resulted in genocide
against ove 6m of our brethren, and the murder of 5m other people. We Jews are supposed to be the moral watchdog of the world, according to those who want the US Congress to continue towards a resolution (non-binding), defining it as genocide. It is felt we (Jews) have a special
responsibility, having experienced our own genocide.

It has also been revealed, that many of the pro-genocide legislators,
in Glendale, and to the relevant committee in Congress, are Jewish.

I find all of this extremely disturbing, and, in fact, frightening.

We, (Jews) seem incapable of minding our own business, even if ultimately we are the major victims of our intervention.

I have said repeatedly, that no one represents me, or other Jews. No one organization or committee or group or legislator can speak for 6m US Jews. US Jews also do not speak for Israel., and Israel does not speak for US Jewry.

The so-called genocide happened almost 100 years ago, under wartime
conditions. The genocide proposals have failed repeatedly in the past in both the Executive and Congress. Democratic and Republican Presidents have not encouraged the definition as genocide.

I would ask my Armenian friends, if Turkey decides to abandon Israel, joins the rest of the Muslim world against the Jewish state, and acts aggressively against Israel, will the Armenian community worldwide come to Israel’s rescue or aid?

If Turkey decides to lessen it’s ties with the US over the issue, and voids the US military presence, will the Armenians come to our (US) aid?

Why are we Jews expected to be the good Christians of the world?

Haven’t we learned anything from the post WW1 period, when we
were accused of stabbing Germany in the back, a pretext for the subsequent slaughter of our people., which was condoned by most
of Europe.

How many civil rights worker’s have to be murdered in the South,  before we wake up the realities in this country? We are always in a lose lose situation.

But more currently, we Jews are still (“neo cons”), being blamed by most
of the world for the 911 WTC bombings. Mossad is still believed to be
the organizers of the tragedy. President Bush is constantly accused of
succumbing to the influence of the “Jewish lobby” (Wolfowitz, Ferth, Perle, etc.).

We have to ask ourselves, why are fingers always pointing to us, is it
our repeated involvement in other people’s affairs? Is the paranoia unjustified?

We Jews are being blamed now for instigating against Iran…(”..the same people behind the Iraqi invasion are now calling for attacking Iran”, ie, the Jewish lobby).

The bottom line: the slaughter of the Armenians was terrible., true. But, we Jews should be watching this thing play itself out, not instigating hatred between Turkey and US. Remember, during WW2, Turkey was the only country which actually helped save it’s Jews. Israel, under seige itself, has important military and economic ties with Turkey (a secular Muslim country).

I am disgusted with the Burbank-Glendale legislator, who should have
known better. I am also disgusted with Tom Lantos, who has appointed himself the moral compass of the world.

Well folks, I am happy to post that the issue of the defining of
the massacres that occurred 100 years ago in Eastern Turkey, of the poor Armenian people, has taken a back seat to far more important concerns.

It seems that, however, we Jews (or at least those who think they speak
for all of us), still want the genocide definition to pass in the Congress.

These groups believe that time does not matter, it’s the truth that does.
They say that our relationship with Turkey should not be based on a lie (Turkey has vigoriously denied the genocide charge).

They say that the US would not refute the genocide charge against 6m Jews committed by Germany, just to please some German feelings and attitudes.

This is comparing the systematic destruction of one-third of my people
in 7 years during 1938 to 1945 (mainly from 1942 to 1945), as the major
reason Germany gave for going to war (to eliminate Jews and Communists), to the killings of 1.4m Armenians caught up in the struggle
between the Armenians and Turks and others, during WW1.

Germany has admitted it’s guilt, in many, many ways since 1945. Turkey
claims there was no systematic killing of Armenians, who, in fact, revolted
against Turkey. (Many innocents were in fact murdered on both sides).

I ask my brethren, most especially Mdanin and Web Guy and others,
won’t we ever learn?

Well fellow posters and thousands of people who regularly come to this
website daily, it has finally happened, as I have been predicting.

An official of the Turkish government is blaming US Jews on alienating
millions of Turks against Israel, US Jews and the United States.

He claims that without Jew support, the genocide proposal would have
gotten no where in the House committee (headed by Tom Lantos, Holocaust
survivor and self-annointed defender of everyone’s rights).

If not for Jewish support, the debate over whether or not the Turks
committed genocide against the Aremenians, would have remained
on the back burner…at least until our correct invasion of Iraq, aided
continually by Turkey, would have ended, with a victory (assuming the Democrats under Pelosi and Clinton do not gain the presidency).

Many major so-called Jewish organizations (they do not represent
anyone but their members), are telling Turkey that we Jews (?), support
Turkish views.

But, the vast majority of Turks on the streets of Istanbul, believe
we Jews are responsible for worsening US-Turkish relations, and
are advocating a strong anti-Jewish (ie, Israeli) stance.

Leave it to the Jews, to screw things up, as usual.

And, oh, btw, Nancy Pelosi is not Jewish…I ask, then, why blame the
Jews, why not the Italians?

You know, I see it as a great honor for us Jews to assist the Armenians with helping the resolution be passed. Armenians have been trying to for over 90 years and each time the Turks intimidate and scare anyone who wants to recognize the truth.

It is a shame for Israel, Jews and the US of all people, to go along with Turkish lies and it is honorable for any Jews to be associated with helping to set the record straight. Turkey is showing how disgraceful they are, overnight passing a resolution to invade the calm part of Iraq to disrupt the US war efforts, not giving a care about the US yet expects the US to go along with its coverup lies.

The EU has already suspended including the Turks into the Union because of the inhumane way they are reacting towards the US and towards Jews who want to support the truth of what happened to the Armenians. The Europeans have already accepted what occured as genocide to the Armenians in spite of similar threats Turkey made to each country who passed the resolution. It’s sad to see fellow Jews so scared of Turkey and getting upset at righteous Jews who want to stand up to the truth, especially when it concerns an act that due to its lack of attention directly resulted in the Holocaust, as stated by Hitler with his own mouth, as stated by the former US Ambassador to Turkey on CNN last week.

As for your comment wondering why the Turks are blaming the Jews when Palosi who is supporting the bill the most, isn’t a Jew - guess what most of the 27 Democrats in the Foreign Affairs Committee who passed the resolution aren’t Jewish and guess what the Turks will look for any excuse to put blame on others including the Jews as an intimidation tactic. Rep. Jane Harman who is a Jew, wrote in part the following to me, also forwarding her very anti-armenian letter she’s been sending out to the reps because she is giving in to Turkish lies and intimidation:

“Thank you for contacting me about H. Res. 106, the Armenian Genocide Resolution. Please find below the letter I sent to the Chairman Tom Lantos and Ranking Member Illeana Ros-Lehtinen of the Committee on Foreign Affairs, explaining my decision to oppose the resolution.”

Post Edited (10-23-07 21:48)

2007-10-26
Turkey knows who to blames for genocide resolution—the Jews
By Yigal Schleifer
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=18387

He writes how Turkey sees those who acknowledge the genocide as “anti-Turkish.” That’s like saying those who ackowledge that the Holocaust took place are anti-Germany. Another intimidation tactic? If the Germans went around doing surveys concluding that, would the rest of the world reverse its stance on the Shoah? I mean the level of Turkey’s accusations has hit a sophmoric level.

Schleifer also mentions that Turkey does not have a strong presence on the Hill, but doesn’t explain why. It’s because they have a history of suprression, the biggest human rights violators in the world and a history of so much blood on their swords, the equivelent of should Al Qada have a strong presence on the Hill. It’s so frustrating how all the writers these days are PC and don’t spill things out.

To compare Turkey with any normal civilized country is insulting. We already saw how quickly they passed that law to go into Iraq to disrupt the US war efforts, jeopordizing the US who they are supposedly such good friends with! If Turkey has half a brain they’ll realize how much harm they’re causing to themselves and that at the end of the day the US is capable of causing more harm to Turkey than the other way around.

Post Edited (10-25-07 17:42)

I’m transferring a new post over here:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Serjix
Posted: 03 August 2008 09:23 AM

I recently was exploring foreign relations of Israel, but I couldn’t find enough information about its relations with Armenia. So I have four questions and I hope you will find time to discuss them.

What are political, economic and social relations between Israel and Armenia?

Can these two countries be considered partners?

Do their communities in other countries such as US share friendship?

And why Israel, as the state of the nation that experienced genocide, doesn’t recognize Armenians genocide organized by Turks?

<<<<<<<<<

I am 75% Armenian and 25% Jew, so I’m very interested in relations between Israel and Armenia, Jews and Armenians, and how they are close to each other.

I usually disagree with David but do agree with him on this one.  Are the “Jews good Christians” and emulate Pres Bush in his efforts to save the world and bring further discredit upon the Americans?  Every time they help, they get blamed for it.  Time to move on and quit meddling in other country’s affairs.  Judaism is a religion, not a political football to tell countries that they’re wrong. Wake up and help your own people.  Remember, “Charity begins at home.”

The old thread, which I closed to stop the name-calling, etc., is here:

http://www.jewishjournal.com/forums/viewthread/1444/

Serjix,

Try this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian-Israeli_relations

I know I am cheating here posting wikipedia link, but I read it and it’s an OK summary. Except it fails to mention also about the Yerevan-Tel Aviv direct flight, the 10 Armenian men honored in Israel for having risked their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust.

The only real down side to the Israeli-Armenian relations is that Israel ‘dances to Turkey’s flute’ and does not recognize the Armenian genocide. Oh and you should probably keep in mind if you run across a Turkish website talking about the Israeli-Armenian relations, they will try to wrongly provoke and get people worked up by saying Armenia was involved in the Holocaust or other lies like this. This is all done to damage ties and to keep Israel as an ally and to keep it from even considering on accepting the Genocide.

The Armenian slaughter happened so long ago that everyone associated with it is dead and so should the issue be.  Think that was the only slaughter that occured? Russian fur traders did that in Alaska by taking the men out of the villages and letting the families die of starvation.  Ever read about atrocities in the Belgian Congo?  Ever castigate the French for the scalpings of their Indian counterparts.?  Life goes on and Armenia is just one of many atrocities and should be left to lie dead in the history books.  The Brits didn’t treat the Indians well during their mandate.  The Americans in their battles with the Indians slaughtered them.  Man, woman and child.  Leave the past behind and move on.

sam corwin - 27 August 2008 03:01 AM

The Armenian slaughter happened so long ago that everyone associated with it is dead and so should the issue be.  Think that was the only slaughter that occured? Russian fur traders did that in Alaska by taking the men out of the villages and letting the families die of starvation.  Ever read about atrocities in the Belgian Congo?  Ever castigate the French for the scalpings of their Indian counterparts.?  Life goes on and Armenia is just one of many atrocities and should be left to lie dead in the history books.  The Brits didn’t treat the Indians well during their mandate.  The Americans in their battles with the Indians slaughtered them.  Man, woman and child.  Leave the past behind and move on.

This is probably the most callous and ignorant post ever. I don’t think you understand the point serjix has been trying to make either. Whereas the atrocities you list are recognized, the Armenian genocide is not. Only Europe, Canada and some other countries acknowledge that it ever took place. Israel strongly denies it ever happened. Why should it be put behind when Hitler used the Armenian genoicde as an excuse to commit the holocaust stating “who after all remembers what happened to the Armenians.” With your attitude, the world would also deny the holocaust and say who cares. And if you do some research there are a few genocide survivors still alive, not that you seem to care at all. It’s no wonder why history repeats itself. People don’t care about what happens to others only for the same fate to happen to them.

Armenian Lady, thank you a lot for the link! I see where the problem is.

JewJew, that’s so right. People keep organizing genocides against other nations. If Jews didn’t get the recognition of their genocide, how would all of them react to it?

I am against any national descrimination, but what the Turkish government is doing right now can’t even just be described in words. They chose the nation that was about to disappear and helped its people to become their friend and make them forget about relations between two of the oldest cultures of our world - Armenia and Israel.

sam corwin,

Your careless post, paints an image of an old grumpy man talking under his nose while noone listens, noone gives a flying hoop.

Sincerely,
Kristine

Tsk, Tsk.  I am a grumpy old man and I don’t understand “Talking under his nose”.  I understand “Head up his as” but then, I suspect I’m a lot older than you and have seen and read much more than you.  I don’t cry over yesterday but look forward to what this day and tomorrow brings.  You must know a lot more people than me because “Noone gives a flying Hoop” and noone is generally more than a handfull.  Thank you for responding.  Don’t fume, talk.
Sam

sam corwin,

This topic should not even be a subject for debate. But sadly it is…  Basically, you have no place to even comment on this. Who are you to decide if we should honor and see our genocide accepted?? What about your Holocaust? Or are you special?