Dennis Prager

November 16, 2010

I wish settlements were the issue

By Dennis Prager

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According to every liberal editorial page in America (and virtually every editorial page abroad), according to President Obama, the United Nations and every other liberal institution, and according to Jews on the left, the major impediment to peace in the Middle East is Israel’s continuing construction of settlements in Jerusalem and the West Bank.

You have to say at least one thing on behalf of those on the left: They are consistent. In conflicts between a decent society and an indecent society, you can almost always count on the left to blame the decent society. The U.S. was wrong in overthrowing the mass murderer Saddam Hussein. The U.S. was wrong in fighting North Vietnam’s Stalinist tyrant, Ho Chi Minh.  The U.S. was wrong in backing the Nicaraguan opposition to the Communist Sandinistas. Israel was wrong in its war against the murderous, Israel-denying, Jew-hating, Islamist totalitarian Hamas. And Israel is wrong today in its conflict with the Palestinians.

Actually, you can say one more thing: The left regularly confuses wishful thinking with reality. You see, I, too, wish that Israeli settlement construction — usually no more than apartment construction within existing Jewish communities within or right outside of Jerusalem — were the obstacle to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. But not being on the left, I am cursed with not assuming that what I would like to believe is reality.

If only these apartments were the problem. What a great day it would be for all of us who yearn to see the Jewish state accepted by its Palestinian and other Arab neighbors.

But, alas, this is make-believe. As Charles Krauthammer asked in a column he wrote a year ago, “Is the peace process moribund because a teacher in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem is making an addition to her house to accommodate new grandchildren?”

Not quite. As Krauthammer noted, “Blaming Israel and picking a fight over ‘natural growth’ may curry favor with the Muslim ‘street.’ But it will only induce the Arab states to do like Abbas: sit and wait for America to deliver Israel on a platter.”

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, one of Israel’s most right-wing politicians, lives in a settlement. He has said that, to achieve peace he and his family would abandon their home. And for real peace, if necessary, Israel would force religious and secular settlers to abandon their homes as well.

If the conflict isn’t due to settlement buildings, then, why is there no peace between Israel and the Palestinians?

For the same reason the Jewish state was invaded by six Arab armies when it was born.

For the same reason Gamal Abdel Nasser, the Egyptian dictator, declared his intention to destroy Israel and, in partnership with Syria and Jordan, tried to do so in May-June 1967.

For the same reason that, in September 1967, the Arab nations gathered in Khartoum, Sudan, and declared their “Three No’s”: no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel.

For the same reason the Palestinians sent human bombs into Israeli schools, weddings, pizza parlors and buses to maim and murder as many Jews as possible.

For the same reason Yasser Arafat unleashed more terror on Israelis in 2001 right after he rejected the offer of a Palestinian state made by Israel’s left-wing Prime Minister Ehud Barak and by President Bill Clinton.

For the same reason Iran’s dictator Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel’s annihilation.

For the same reason Egyptian, Palestinian, Syrian and other Arab and Muslim countries’ media regularly broadcast the most anti-Semitic propaganda since the Nazis.

And that reason is that most Palestinians and most other Muslims in the Middle East, and many Muslims elsewhere, do not believe that a Jewish state should be allowed to exist, period, in an area once dominated by Islam. That — not Israeli apartment-building — is the problem.

Postscript: I just released the latest video course in my Internet project known as Prager University: prageru.com. It is, like the other courses, five minutes long. With the aid of maps and other illustrations, it explains what I have written here: The Middle East issue revolves around Arab/Muslim rejection of a Jewish state. According to YouTube, it has been viewed by 300,000 visitors in its first two weeks. I note this, first, to inform readers of this column about the video; second, to note how hungry people are for a clear explanation of the real reason for the lack of peace between Israel and the Palestinians; and third, because I have been moved by how many Israelis have written to me to thank me for the video. With nearly all the world — including many Jews — blaming Israel, they had forgotten why they don’t deserve to be.

Dennis Prager is a nationally syndicated radio talk-show host, columnist, author and public speaker. He can be heard in Los Angeles on KRLA (AM 870) weekdays 9 a.m. to noon. His Web site is dennisprager.com.

A version of this article appeared in print.

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I’m not a liberal, and it’s pretty plain for me to see that settlements are in fact the issue.

Settlements are Jewish only communities, which neither Muslim nor Christian Israelis are allowed to live.  They are only for Jews.  They are built upon land that doesn’t belong to Israel, and it’s land that’s been confiscated from Palestinian individuals.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:20 pm

Settlements are not built on the border of Israel either, they are built all over Palestinian territory in the West Bank.  They are connected by roads on which only Israelis may drive on and Palestinians are not allowed to use.  These roads cut off Palestinian communities from one another, and isolate them from one another.  Different license plates are issued to settlers and Palestinians in the West Bank so that it’s easy to identify who is driving on the roads.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:21 pm

To get from one Palestinians town to another Palestinian town, you probably will have to pass through an Israeli checkpoint. If the IDF officer who controls it determines you might be a security threat for whatever reason (stated or not), you will not be able to pass through the checkpoint.  This is true regardless if you are going to your job or if you’re going to the hospital.

That’s the “decent Israeli society” that our author Dennis Prager is defending.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:21 pm

Most people are entirely ignorant about what settlements are, and what their function is.  Their function is to eliminate any possibility of there ever being a Palestinian state.  This is why roads divide communities, and why settlements exist not on the border of Israel and what remains of Palestinian land, but instead exist all over Palestinian territory.

There’s a reason you never see a map of where settlements are, and there is a reason why our media never mentions that they are for Jewish people only.  The reason is that if more people knew, less people would unquestioningly support a xenophobic state like Israel.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:22 pm

Most people in the United States hopefully wouldn’t tolerate conditions like this in this country.  However, if similar conditions did exist for any group in the US, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to expect there would be resistance from that oppressed group.  The situation is pretty easy to understand but people are never educated about the situation in the United States.  The media doesn’t discuss, maps are never shown, the historical background is never explained.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:22 pm

For example: This article didn’t discuss any of these facts, because this article was designed to drum up support for Israel and not educate people well enough to understand the actual situation to make an informed decision themselves.

US media is now relegated to propaganda and this “journal” is no different.  With this conflict, ignorance is complicity.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:23 pm

And a 700 word limit.  How often it is that there is never enough time, nor enough space alloted to allow the situation to be explained.  I guess there just isn’t enough space on the Internet…

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/16/10 at 11:25 pm

While settlements may not be the main obstacle to the long term peace in the region, they are clearly a short-term obstacle to sitting down and working on the bigger issues.  It is difficult to sit down with the other side when you are poking them in the eye.

Comment by Lawrence Kopeikin on 11/17/10 at 4:27 pm

I am old enough to remember the times when the right wing zionist supported the fashist in Europe.It seems nothing changed.We still have our home grown fashists

Comment by guskohn on 11/17/10 at 5:14 pm

Is it possible to write a column without use of the labels, “liberal, left, conservative, or right”?
I am not a Conservative, being pretty much in the center, but leaning to the left on many social issues.
I enjoy reading opinions of all sides, but am tired of the never ending use of labels, a cheap writing trick designed to sway the reader’s opinion towards that of the columnist. The leftist/liberal columns do the same thing, and it’s just as boring as when the rightist/conservative columnists do it.

Comment by Michael Steinberg on 11/17/10 at 5:19 pm

So Richard, your not a Liberal? Then you are a deniest!
You feel that someone can come to your home and tell you that you can not have children or provide for them (Grow)and you can not build to house the family you have or bring your parents to stay with you for a while.You can’t build schools to ed. your children either. Great!Someone will be by to take all you have and you won’t have one of say about it? GROW UP!

Comment by Gracie on 11/17/10 at 5:40 pm

While your at it, get ready to go live in the sea because you everyone thinks you are an obstacle and not a person with rights. You also have no country to call yours according to the objectionists so why don’t you just tuck your tail between your legs and find a country that will allow you to visit but not stay or belong? Thats what is actually going on Richard!Denying being a liberal leftist is dishonest! Call yourself what you are since your words speak very clearly for themselves!

Comment by Gracie on 11/17/10 at 5:46 pm

I’ll stick to being a liberal than preach hate and bias.  Dennis Prager is only making the divide larger between the left and the right, unity is not in his vocabulary or at least it isn’t shocking enough to get good publicity or feed his massive ego.

Comment by R.Teitelbaum on 11/17/10 at 5:49 pm

Gracie, you can’t use the holocaust as an excuse for Jewish bigotry.  I’m 1/2 polish, 2 million of us were exterminated.  The Arabs didn’t create a xenophobic Jewish state in the Middle East, the Zionists did, and they did it with terrorism, murder, and theft.  Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were both terrorists and murders, and prime ministers of Israel.  That’s the country that’s been created.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/17/10 at 6:00 pm

I listen to Dennis Prager and read him as well, because I find some comfort in the utter sense of rightness that is such an inherent part of his thinking.  While I, a devout Jew and an old leftist, stumble my way into making decisions, still convinced that it is the vocation of the Jew to strive to extend the domain of justice and peace.  Does the expansion of Jewish settlements, in whatever form, serve that ideal? Or is it another humiliation for the Palestinians? Or does the history of Arab rejectionism make those questions irrelevant?
Leonard Beerman

Comment by Rabbi Leonard Beerman on 11/17/10 at 6:12 pm

I am astounded at people who object to ALLEGED, AND I MEAN ALLEGED “Jewish only” residential areas but see no problem with the Muslim countries who wish for their countries and the entire regional areas to to be “Jewish free”!  Read up on Dhimmitude1 That said, Jerusalem is, UNDER AMERCIAN LAW, the united capital of Israel.  Obama and his minions are in violation of AMERCIAN LAW in their attempts to stop Israel from building in its capital.  Get real,people:  The issue for the Muslims is that Jews EXIST ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, LET ALONE ISRAEL.  And they don’t like Christians, Buddists, Hindus and anyone else any better.  DO YOUR HOMEWORK and stop posting dribble here!

Comment by Roberta on 11/17/10 at 7:04 pm

“So Richard, your not a Liberal? Then you are a deniest!”

No, I’m not a liberal.  You are reconstructing the argument to an ad hominem attack.  It really doesn’t matter what I am.  What matters is what I said, and what I said is all true and you’ve addressed none of it because it is true and what Israel is doing is morally reprehensible.

But if you must know, I’m a low down dirty capitalist pig.  I don’t affiliate myself to any ideology, but what I’m closest to would be what is known as a “paleo-conservative” or a late 17th century liberal.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/17/10 at 7:46 pm

Dennis is 100% right!!! The settlement issue is a smoke screen. There will never be peace until the Palestinians and other muslims recognize and work with Israel for peace. Islam seems to me to be more of a political/military movement, than a religion. All religions are peaceful and loving of their neighbors. they do not preach death and killing, IMHO.

Comment by Rich on 11/17/10 at 8:50 pm

I want to pose a question to all the “sayers” of all types on this subject.  Did anyone but Jewish people want this arid desert when Jewish people did and made it their homeland?  Please someone, give me some history on this because I want peace in the Middle East but not at the expense of any people’s lives.  After Israel became a state, what was there before Israel became THE State of Israel?  I would like to know people’s knowledge of the history of all of this and to see how many are on track with the truth.  Thank you.

Comment by KATHY CARSON on 11/17/10 at 9:38 pm

Logical explanation why there is/will be no peace.  Arabs attacked,  murdered Jews before ‘48.  They attacked Israel in ‘67.
    Only finished idiot or anti semite would believe that successors of Nazi collaborators would befriend Jews.  May be just for a moment to stub idiot in the back.
      In a pre-election dispute in one temple,  one idiot wanted a “change” and was going to vote Obama.  All my reference to an Obama toast at Arafat speechwriter party were not heard.  This “change” will bleed Israel many years.
      Of cause, if Mr. Dershovitz published a few words about his collegue and his circle…  But he was too busy writing book about Israel for sale…

Comment by Arkady Dash on 11/17/10 at 9:41 pm

Are there not muslims building and living in the US and Israel?  Why is it that jews are restricted from where they want to live.  They have been expelled from the muslim countries without compensation,  and the property the build on has been purchased not confiscated like the arabs did.

Comment by jinny on 11/17/10 at 10:17 pm

Richard, please go to www.palwatch.org and see what the Palestinians really think about you as well as Israel. They are still naming schools and sports awards after terrorists and teaching their children to hate. It doesn’t matter what you give them they only want Israel completely gone. No propaganda on the site, just actual footage and reports of what the Palestinians are writing, broadcasting and teaching.

Comment by Lily Steiner on 11/18/10 at 1:24 am

What a shame, to all who you who wrote comments I wish you could come and see for yourself because you judge others. I live in a settlement and I invite you all to see with your own eyes and hear with your own ears before you write about something you get fed only thru the media..

Comment by Deborah Bouzaglou on 11/18/10 at 2:03 am

The assertion that the settlements are being built on Palestinian land presumes that Palestinian Arabs in fact own the land as opposed to the Palestinian Jews.  It also assumes that there is no price to pay for starting a war and losing it.  If the Muslims had accepted the U.N. partition in 1947, we would not be having this discussion.  Rather than accept the partition, they sought to throw the Jews into the sea and lost.  Now they complain they do not control the land.

Comment by Ilbert on 11/18/10 at 8:04 am

I note that no one disputes Mr. Praeger’s version of the history of the Arabs in their rejection of the U.N. partition and their futile efforts to destroy Israel (by war or terrorists attacks) and their refusal to recognize Israel as a legitimate state. Israel controls the West Bank because Jordan lost it in the war.  Israel abandoned Gaza to the Palestinians and what did they get as a reward, thousands of missles being thrown into Israel.

Comment by Ilbert on 11/18/10 at 8:12 am

Prager’s psuedo lessons are the equivalent of white bread and mayonaise in the world of logic and political science. 

His claim that this is all you need to know is disgraceful.  If he were a real thinker, he would consider the differences between Hamas and the Palestinian people and other importance finer points.
It’s either naive or dishonest.
 
Transforming all Palestinians and Arabs into “The Other” and he fails to concede the humanity of his opposition.  He takes the low road, morally and intellectually.

This driveldeserves only half the space, just to show thinking, thoughtful Jews what they are up against.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/18/10 at 10:24 am

Funny how I get accused of using the Haulocost when the word was not mentioned in my post.
I also have family there that can see, hear and experience and not a one of them are stupid.
Talk of mans labels and ideas huh? What about HaShems own words? Israel is not be parceled leased out or divided.HaShem brought the Nation Israel back no matter what man credits themselves with. Better to Bless Israel and Protect her than to curse her and bargain with what is HaShems and not know what HE says about it all.

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 11:27 am

Richard, the statement may be true too YOU but in fact the reality of situation is that Israel belongs too HaShem and is Israelis Heritage. ALL of it! Not part of it and certainly Not to be decided by American leaders and other nations or those that would continuously remove people and part out HaShems lands.
You are right. It doesn’t matter what you are or believe. What matters is HaShems Word & Promises both of which He is Faithful and Will Keep!

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 11:40 am

Lily, I agree with you 100% There are so many politically correct (controlled) thinkers today that have been preconditioned by the world that we are not to conform too that they base their assessments on what they have been ‘taught’ in controlled environs from K through life. Sad.

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 11:44 am

I am a Liberal and I agree wholeheartedly with Prager on this issue. Why isn’t anyone asking the U.S. to give back California, Arizona, Texas, etc. to Mexico? Afterall, we got these territories following a war (that we started). Israel must be strong because in the end they will make their own destiny.

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/18/10 at 11:56 am

Roberta, nobody is defending the arab nations.

You are defending a Jewish nation which shows clear discrimination.

I would be very happy if the United States stopped supporting the Egyptian government, the Jordanian government, and the Sa’ud government.  None of them are progressive governments, and they should all be allowed to collapse.

Bad Arab governments isn’t the same as good Israeli government.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 12:29 pm

Lily Steiner, it is irrelevant what the Palestinians think of me.  I don’t care.

The issue here is what sort of person would defend an obviously institutionalized discriminatory nation?  I won’t, and I don’t want the United States doing it.  It doesn’t matter if it’s Israel, Jordan or the Sa’ud Family.

NONE of you have taken issue with anything I’ve pointed out.  It’s just blind defense.  You can’t defend bigotry, and notice none of you are even talking about what I wrote in my initial comment.  None of you.  Why is that?

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 12:33 pm

“Funny how I get accused of using the Haulocost”

Then what Gracie?  Are using the diaspora as justification for what Israel is doing in the West Bank?

Everything I wrote in my first post, is absolutely correct isn’t it?  What kind of immoral bigot would support that anywhere on the planet?  I won’t, it’s as simple as that.

Anybody that does, is a bigot.  How else can you interpret it?  What justifies the creation of Israel?  Name it.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 12:36 pm

The Word of Almighty and Most High Justifys Israel and His People!
As with most that believe Israel should pay the cost for the idiocies of the world, they see man as the begin and end all of all secisions and refuse to even acknowledge The Creator.
You are entitled to your fantasies at the cost of Israel if thats what you believe. I know better though.
You are entitled to the view you have and you can believe it to as far asI am concerned but to make any statement without know all sides and The Word, then your decision is at the least a marginal personal opinion and that, Richard does NOT make it TRUTH!

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 12:59 pm

Richard, ask the gays and Arabs citizens who work, live and thrive in Israel if there is “clear descrimination”.As for your question ‘What justifies the creation of Israel?  Name it.” it won’t satisfy you but here it is:  Thousands and thousands of years of history and connection to the land AND alittle thing called the U.N. by which the world governments acknowledged the Jewish history and connection to the land. So, back to you, Richard.  Why not?  Name it.

Comment by Roberta on 11/18/10 at 1:02 pm

“Richard, ask the gays and Arabs citizens who work,”

Again, this is just going off the subject again.  I have been quite clear in stating I don’t think the Arab nations are all the respectable, and I have already stated that I don’t think they should be supported.

But “bad Arabs” doesn’t mean “good Israelis”.  Just because the Arabs do lousy things doesn’t excuse Israel from a 62 year government policy of discrimination and bigotry.  Israel is NOT a western country.

Comment by Richard wicks on 11/18/10 at 1:10 pm

As far as folks responding to your first post, they HAVE and you systematically dismiss them when they do not agree with you.
You have one view Richard. It is your view and you are entitled to your view whether others or the majority of others do not agree with you or not. I am but one but clearly I do NOT agree with you! Have a nice day.

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 1:13 pm

Gracie: “The Word of Almighty and Most High Justifys Israel and His People!”

OK.  There is any point in trying to reason with somebody who doesn’t use reason.  If there wasn’t a 700 word limit, I might be willing to get into a long discussion about it, but faith always trumps reason.  No matter what logic, what facts, etc. I present, religion will always trump them all.

That’s the purpose of religion, to absolve you from acting morally, or being reasonable.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 1:14 pm

“As far as folks responding to your first post, they HAVE and you systematically dismiss them when they do not agree with you.”

Really?  I have read all these posts.  Nobody has disputed my facts, other than to say that the Jewish only settlements are only “allegedly Jewish only”.

I know who the Kadan Family of Katzir is.  Do you?  I know what the JLA and the ILA are.  I am not ignorant about this subject and I’m not distracted by logical fallacies either.

Tell me, who has disputed me?  Count the number posts down, give me the number, and I’ll be sure to respond to it.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 1:20 pm

“I am a Liberal and I agree wholeheartedly with Prager on this issue. Why isn’t anyone asking the U.S. to give back California, Arizona, Texas, etc. to Mexico?”

In Arizona, Texas, and Mexico the Mexicans weren’t expelled from the area.  That’s why.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 3:24 pm

Reason verses Faith you say? Reason is something a child does based on that childs experiences and knowledge. That same child 20 yrs later reasons a great deal differently because even they, put away childish thinking and ways and grow up.
Faith is Trust in HaShem and His Word even if it defies mans reason. Man places his own limits on himself. Faith has no limits. Trust has no limits. The Almighty and Most High is Faithful and True. Man is frail and subject to all manner of influences and limitations.Man that looks to himself for truth will always find himself decieved, not only by himself but by others that seek to do so to keep man Ignorant of HaShem.

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 4:18 pm

For all that you have mentioned knowing about, you assume I do not know about them? That would be another mistake to make such an assumption.
It isn’t a matter of mans intelligence or knowledge of the world at all.It isn’t a matter of mans opinions or contrivances to control or speak harshly of Israel for to do so is to speak against The Apple Of HaShems Eye and He does keep account.
To leave HaShem out of any matter concerning Israel is foolish and unwise.

Comment by Gracie on 11/18/10 at 4:34 pm

Richard Wicks is entitled to his opinions. You are not going to change his world view. Just leave him alone and let him talk to the wall.

Comment by Avi on 11/18/10 at 6:07 pm

People! Lets get to the root of the matter & roll the clock back to ‘67.  In the first half of the year there was no such critter as a “Palistinian”.  Then the war where 3 Arab Nations tried to reach the goal of pushing Israel into the sea & obliterating it & all in it!  They came close, then Israel kicked butt & drove them back.  And only when the Arab Nations started loosing land that had previously been theirs, did they complain to the world & whine & cry for a cease fire!  The Arab objective of ‘67 still remains - wipe Israel off the map!  Don’t y’all EVER forget that!  Settlements are just a pawn in the chess game.

Comment by JB on 11/18/10 at 6:56 pm

Further, keep in mind that in the past, all “peace talks” included concessions from Israel.  What did these concessions get them?  Suicide bombers & rocket attacks deeper into Israel!

Someone mentioned the use of reason.  In the past “reason” has gotten us the “unsinkable” Titanic, the Hindenburg, “adequate” flood walls around New Orleans, a bunch of “alliances” that brought many nations to rally around opposing sides in one incident, leading to WWI.  So much for man’s reasoning & wisdom!

Comment by JB on 11/18/10 at 6:57 pm

to Richard.  Your analogy of mexico , californa and texas is an interesting one, however you have wrong information. Israel did not expell it’s arab population, like the arabs expelled the jews from syria, libya, egypt, etc.  the arabs ran away encouraged by the neighboring arabs, so they could attack Israel from all sides.  they were defeated, and yet have continued to attack for the past 50 years.  now in comparison, imagine what the US would do if

Comment by jinny on 11/18/10 at 7:42 pm

part 2, if after the spanish american war, the mexicans living in texas and california ran back into mexico and for 50 years have been attacking the US, and sending homocide bombers into LA, Dallas, San Antonio, and continue to send 25 rockets daily into Galveston?  what would the US do?  Give texas back so the mexicans could have their own state?  i don’t think so.

Comment by jinnyg on 11/18/10 at 7:46 pm

one more thing.  there is no “Palistinian Territory” or Palistinians, anymore than there is “mexican territory”.  the mexicans living in the US are mexicans, and the arabs living in Israel are arabs.  the west bank was given to the arabs (Jordon) by the British.  Isreal won it in a war of defense and now it belongs to Israel, just as Texas and California belong to the US.  Pretty simple, really.

Comment by jinny on 11/18/10 at 7:52 pm

Richard Wicks, give me a break. The Palestinians were not expelled by Israel—they were told to leave by their leaders, so they could return when the Jews were defeated. The Mexicans are returning to their former territories in the U.S. and they will probably be in the majority before this century ends. However they are treated as illegals in their former territories—so why not give these states back to them—that’s what you want the Israelis to do.

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/18/10 at 7:54 pm

Gracie says:  “Reason is something a child does based on that childs experiences and knowledge.”

Reason is what has led to the modern age.  Reason is why you have a computer.  Reasoning is what brought about a revolution in science.  Reasoning is why you have light bulbs, a life expectancy of around 70, and medications.

Faith is why Jim Jones got 900 people to commit suicide, why hijakers drove 2 buildings into the World Trade Center, and why you support Israel without question regardless of what Israel does, or might do.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/18/10 at 8:34 pm

Gracie’s post shows a naive and unrealistic lack of thinking: “To leave HaShem out of any matter concerning Israel is foolish and unwise.

It is equally foolish and unwise to leave the Palestinaians out of anything concerning Israel too. Gracie and only those she considers human live in a fantasy world with their HaShem and no one else.

They are incapable of understanding, negotiating with or sharing joint success with anyone but like minded Orthodox Jews.

Insecure, they flee from a life that seeks to be engaged in the real world where Judaism can be an insightful, moral guide. 

They live in an imaginary world of spritual purity, while condemning the rights of others to exist.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/19/10 at 12:13 am

Richard…thanks for pointing out to Gracie that reason is also what has enabled her to live a protected life here.

Religious conviction is a terribly personal thing.  People like Gracie betray their own tradition, just as any fundamentalist betrays the inherent humanism of religious belief, when they expect all of the world to support their personal convictions.

It is said that when the angels celebrated the drowning of the Egyptians, Gracie’s HaShem said, “Do not rejoice…my children are drowning.”

Those who cannot grasp the ethical intention of this parable are using religion as a simplistic shield, instead of an energizing lens through which to view and embrace the world.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/19/10 at 9:48 am

The only thing pointed out is that humanists believe about the same things and embrace the world instead of The Creator of man and the earth and all that is there in.
Humanism is a view of man superior too The Creator and looks to be an integral part of the world in their own views and practices.
There is a HUGE difference between world and EARTH.
There is a HUGE difference between Creator and Creation.
There will be NO one above HaShem. lucifer tried and got kicked out of Heaven so I am confident no human will ever achieve the same goal as satan in his efforts to be supreme.No one creates themselves and assuredly do not arrive on this earth by their own importance.

Comment by Gracie on 11/19/10 at 10:15 am

Gracie, you have it wrong.  Humanists embrace all creation…isn’t that enough praise for your HaShem.

I knew I should not have used that word, since you and others, Tea Partiers, Republicans, evangelicals use it as a pejorative, when you just mean a sensitive person who doesn;t agree with me.  You have made it a dirty word out of self-defense.

If you had an ounce of objectivity you would scare yourself.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/19/10 at 10:21 am

To Avi, Thank you. I agree with you. Opinions will never change truth and HaShem is Truth in all things regardless of mans attempts to claim otherwise.
The wall they talk too will have no more ability to change Truth than standing in a garage will make one a cadillac.
Shalom and Thank you Avi

Comment by Gracie on 11/19/10 at 10:33 am

Gracie, nobody can change the mind of bigot.  You’re just the Jewish version of a Klu Klux Klan member.  They were a Christian group, and in the early 1900s they were widely regarded as a moral group.

You’re an anachronism today.  You are absolutely certain of your correctness because of an unshakable belief about Santa Claus in the sky - that’s the purpose of your religion.  Your belief in an imaginary god (or possibly real one), strips you of any ability for objective moral thought.  If there is a real religion, it is entirely moral.  None of the Abrahamic religions are, that’s for certain.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/19/10 at 11:07 am

Mel writes “Richard Wicks, give me a break. The Palestinians were not expelled by Israel—they were told to leave by their leaders,”

You mean, they left a warzone, like Iraqis left Fallujah? Gee, why would they do that during a civil war?

Either UN Resolution 181 which created Israel which was passed in 1947 is valid and UN Resolution 194 which ordered Israel to allow Palestinians to return to their homes which was passed in 1948 is valid, or they are both invalid. Both were passed by the SAME UN, with the SAME makeup of countries and representatives.

Do either. Ignore both or enforce both. It produces the same result. Israel hasn’t had legitimacy since the year of it’s creation.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/19/10 at 11:35 am

Richard Wick, if the Arabs had accepted the UN resolutions creating both a Jewish and Arab state in Palestine we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But they didn’t and chose a war instead. They lost. They lost several other wars since. What other countries have done what is being asked of Israel—to give up the spoils of war? And yet they have given back the Sinai and Gaza. And what has it gotten them from their Arab neighbors. The same crap as before. Israel should give back most of the West Bank to the Arabs when the Arabs stop lobbing bombs into Israel, stop wanting to destroy Israel, and tuly want to live in peace. I won’t hold my breath for this to happen—but can hope.

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/19/10 at 11:58 am

Your representation of humanism is indeed eye opening and sounds for all it is worth (and that isn’t much) like atheistic dribble.
Since your mind is locked and unchanged I would agree that bigots minds are locked and unchanged so finally we agree on a matter.Praying for you sir. Have a nice day.

Comment by Gracie on 11/19/10 at 12:14 pm

“Richard Wick, if the Arabs had accepted the UN resolutions creating both a Jewish and Arab state”

Why should they?

The natives of the area were NEVER given an opportunity for self determination.  They were never asked if they wanted to segregate the country into Jewish and non Jewish populations.

If the UN divided Israel up into 2 parts, one being Jewish and one being Arab, would Israel accept it?  Of course not.

And that SAME UN that created Israel had it’s UN mediator murdered by Jewish terrorists under Yitzhak Shamir’s command in 1948

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/19/10 at 1:54 pm

Gracie, you should pray for your own understanding of the world and those you are not close too.

Your mind is the one locked.  I can accept your thoughts and feelings as ligitimate, even if you can not accept mine.  You do not live in this world, but in your head, and exclusively through Orthodoxy. 

I have continually tried to engage you, and you continue to rant and rave about something meaningful only to you.

Shame.  And very sad that you are not alone, sharing with others the self-imposed isolation that has hardened your hearts as well as your head.

I’m done responding to you.  I have a world to care for.

Comment by JIM RUXIN on 11/19/10 at 3:52 pm

Care for your world and when the time comes, you will find that when you are down and out, flat broke, so far down you have to look up to see bottom,see how long the ‘world’ will care but this I assure you,should you ever call upon Almighty and Most High Abba Yahweh, He Will respond instantly and offer you Salvation through Messiah and never leave or forsake you.

Comment by Gracie on 11/19/10 at 4:37 pm

Richard, Love that last line - “I have a world to care for.”  LOL Nuthin’ like a BIG “i” & little “u” syndrome, is there?  When you recover from your delusions iof grandeur, maybe we can talk.  LOL

Comment by JB on 11/19/10 at 6:17 pm

Richard Wicks, the UN did divide Israel up into 2 parts, one being Jewish and one being Arab, and the Jews did accept it—the Arabs didn’t. So you just don’t know what you are talking about. I’m curious if you will agree on some basic history—and I am not talking about the bible. There was a Jewish country called Judaea from the time of the Maccabees (164 B.C.E.) to the First Revolt against Rome in 66 C.E. And there were no Moslems until the 7th century. Right?

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/19/10 at 9:33 pm

JB, I wrote that line and resent your knee-jerk reaction.  Perhaps you should read a little more carefully.

I meant that I cannot waste my efforts being kind to Gracie who allows no real discussion.  She is a blind believer.

I modestly agree that my efforts may produce little results, but it is a way I choose to live. 

More people should care more for the world and less for themselves, as you so caustically admonished.

JR

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/21/10 at 3:22 pm

Here is a summary of this article:

“People hate us no matter what we do, therefore any action that we take is justified”

This is an extremely dangerous way of thinking. The author is completely wrong.

Comment by ML on 11/21/10 at 5:12 pm

JR I sit corrected. IMO it is Gracie that is wasting her efforts, casting pearls before swine. Her eyes are more open than most I know. It would be wise to listen to what she says. Anyone who can’t see that must be blind.  JR, the G_d you seem to not believe in, told me to tell you, “It is not by luck and not by chance.”

Comment by JB on 11/21/10 at 9:38 pm

Mr. Prager, 

Your November 19 article (“I wish settlements were the issue”) is a perfect example of attacking a straw man.

You know as well as we do that the problem with West Bank settlements goes much beyond “construction within existing Jewish communities within or right outside of Jerusalem.

You know as well as we all do that today there are more than 300,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank (not including East Jerusalem), living in 120 settlements and 95 illegal outposts.

You know full well that many, if not most of these settlements were intentionally positioned right outside Palestinian towns and villages to deny contiguity for a future Palestinian state in the West Bank.

Or maybe you don’t.

For people like you, who either refuse to be confused by the facts or who simply don’t know them, my organization developed a new high-tech tool. We call it Facts on the Ground. it is an interactive map-application for smartphones and for the web. It allows anyone, with the touch of a finger or a click of a mouse, to view the settlements as facts on the ground of the West Bank - both the big picture and up close.
When you examine this map, you will see what a significant impact settlements have on the geography of the West Bank, how they threaten to render the two-state solution impossible, and how they threaten to condemn Israel to turning into a bi-national state that could not be both Jewish and democratic. You will see why your assertions that settlement construction is a none-issue is simply wrong.

And then there are things that even a map can’t show.

Even the best map cannot show the resentment that grows in the hearts of Palestinians with each house built in a settlement. More than a fifth of these houses are built on land privately owned by Palestinians. And a map can’t show how dishonest Israeli commitments to negotiating future peace with the Palestinians look when - during those negotiations - Israel continues to settle the land that is destined to become the future Palestinian state. Maps don’t show how settlement construction discredits Israel’s Palestinian interlocutors, Palestinian moderates who seek peace. And they don’t show how Jewish settlement construction can only bolster the political fortunes of Palestinian extremists who dismiss negotiations, and instead advocate violence and terrorism.
Mr. Prager, when was the last time you toured the West Bank? Let me extend an invitation to view for yourself what settlement construction looks like. You will be accompanied by Hagit Ofran, who directs Peace Now’s Settlements Watch project. She is perhaps the world’s leading expert on settlements. Last week she authored a report, which shows that in the last six weeks alone, construction occurred in 1,629 housing units, and 1,116 foundations have been dug in 63 different settlements, 46 of them east the Separation Barrier (in areas that are destined to become the future Palestinian state) and 17 on the western side of it. (http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=61&docid=4818) 

West Bank settlements are a tremendous security, economic, political and moral burden to Israel. They are not only an obvstacle to peace, but also an obstable to Israel’s becoming a full and legitimate member of the family of nations. They perpetuate the occupation of the West Bank and therefore fuel the international campaign to delegitimize the Jewish state.

Settlement construction is not simply a matter of preventing Bubbie from making room for her yingeles in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City. 

You know that. And if you don’t, you should. We are happy to help.

Arthur Stern, Sanford Weiner - Americans for Peace Now Regional Co-Chairs
David Pine - Americans for Peace Now Regional Director
Los Angeles

Comment by David Pine on 11/22/10 at 12:15 pm

To the Editor of the Jewish Journal:  Every time I submit a comment, I am limited to 700 total letters, NOT WORDS. Why do some of the people on this site get to comment well in excess of the limits imposed on ordinary people like me?  And why, most of the time are these excess comments from your liberal friends?

Comment by Roberta on 11/22/10 at 12:32 pm

I am a liberal and I always am limited to 700 characters!  The post abopve is unusual and the first I have seen longer than 700 characters.

Roberta, you exhibit the over-reaction and paranoia typical of conspiracy theorists.  No one wants to restrict your speech, as hystrerical as it can get.  Witness Grace.

Comment by JIM RUXIN on 11/22/10 at 1:13 pm

Roberta, for me to post my post, my FACTUAL post, filled with information, I had to jump through hoops to do it.

And I agree I don’t think there should be any limit to a post here or anywhere.

Chomsky, who I disagree entirely about almost everything other than Israel (particularly in economics), is correct about his statement that our media today is purposely cut up so that only the most puerile and simplistic responses can be made to any specious propagandistic argument.

Even in my “long” post, I didn’t go anywhere near into the detail I would have liked, but that was because I know many people have all the intellectual depth of a coat of paint.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/22/10 at 5:11 pm

Actually, Richard Wicks, I was talking about the LONG post from David Pine. As for your comment: “many people have all the intellectual depth of a coat of paint”, how PROGRESSIVE of you.  I am so sorry that you have to deal with people you feel are so less intelligent that you are! And, Jim Ruxin, my point is neither conspiratorial or over-reaction.  It is fact.  I have seen this happen alot of times, particularly when the retort comes from the left perspective.  Maybe you haven’t been looking around here as long as I have!

Comment by Roberta on 11/22/10 at 5:30 pm

> Actually, Richard Wicks, I was talking about the LONG post
> from David Pine

Hunh, you’re right.  That’s kind of, well, unfair.

> As for your comment: “many people have all the
> intellectual depth of a coat of paint”, how PROGRESSIVE of
> you.

Progressive?  What does being progressive have to do with recognizing that the vast majority of people simply don’t care about reality, and only care about hearing their programmed mind re-enforced with it’s programming?

I question if most people are even sentient.

And I’m sorry I have to deal with stupid people too.  I’d rather not, this is why I want a small simplified government with a non interventionist foreign policy.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/22/10 at 5:56 pm

Richard, since I am limited to 700 letters, here’s the very short answer re PROGRESSIVES.  The Progressive movement, of which Hillary and Obama are both BIG FANS, believes that most people are stupid, most people can’t understand the complexities of life and that they, the PROGRESSIVES, should just make the decisions because THEY KNOW BEST.  I am not a progressive and I agree with you that a small government is the best government.  As Prager says:  When the Government is BIG, the People are SMALL!  See, we agree on something!

Comment by Roberta on 11/22/10 at 6:23 pm

Screw Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama.

Both of them supported the Patriot Act.  Both of them supported warrantless tapping.  Hillary voted to “authorize force in Iraq”, the only reason Obama didn’t do it, is that he wasn’t even in Federal government at the time.

They’re Neocons you idiot.  NOTHING has changed since Obama was elected.  The wars are still on.  Patriot Act is still law.  Bailouts still going on - remember when Paulson was doing it?  Gauntanamo is still open.  Did you know that?

People like you are the reason I don’t think most people are sentient.  You’re not, you’re just a mindless party loyalist, and both parties do the same f!cking thing.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/23/10 at 12:14 am

israel illegally declared themselves a naiton on land that was not theirs, against other people who didn’t want it and since that they day they have stolen, robbed, beaten convived, and used any and all means since then to steal more as they un a military dictatorship in the west bank as they coral 1.6 million human beings into a open air prison and what was their crime?  They want want to go home to their lands and houses…Funny how the israelis do to the Palestinians what was done to their parents and grandparents and think this time its right becuase they’re not jewish.  What racism, what chutzpuh!

Comment by handala33 on 11/23/10 at 8:58 am

Well, the moderator censored me, apparently, so let me try again.

Roberta - with regard to Obama, and Hillary Clinton.  I should like to point out that Hillary Clinton voted for the resolution to use force in Iraq, and the only reason Obama didn’t is he wasn’t in Federal government at the time.  Gauntanamo is still open and operating, both wars are still on, the banking bailouts are still happening, warrantless wiretapping still continues, and the Patriot Act is still law.

Obama and Hillary Clinton are both neocons.  This is blatantly obvious, party names, are just names.  You don’t pay attention to what they do, this is why if most people are sentient - you aren’t.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/23/10 at 2:20 pm

Richard, why do you descend to level of Roberta?  You sound just as prone to fantasy, if not religious then political.

The world is far more complex than either your simplistic explanations can deal with.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/23/10 at 3:48 pm

How exactly am I prone to fantasy?  I would like you to elaborate on that, Jim.

The concept that Hillary Clinton and Obama are somehow RADICALLY different than our previous lousy incompetent administration is silly - if you bothered to check their voting records in the senate - like I did, before I voted.

Bush pushed though a bunch of very bad legislation when he was president, and you know what Obama has reversed?  Absolutely none of it.  You’d know he wouldn’t if you just realized he voted to renew the Patriot Act when he was a JUNIOR senator.

We’ve replaced a dumb stupid frat boy with an slimey two faced liar with better diction, and more melanin.  Wow.  What a change.  What hope.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/23/10 at 5:19 pm

I agree that Obama is too moderate, though I suspect that is not the support you want. If you can’t discriminate between Bush and Obama administrations you are not looking very hard.

They are more alike than anyone thought, but a NEO-CON?  Surely you jest, or just resort to hyperbole to make a point.

Comment by JIM RUXIN on 11/23/10 at 5:31 pm

“I agree that Obama is too moderate, though I suspect that is not the support you want. If you can’t discriminate between Bush and Obama administrations you are not looking very hard.”

Hahaha.

I’m only concerned with results, not empty rhetoric.

What has changed?  A fascist health care bill that mandates that individuals are required to give private companies money lest they be penalized by the government for not doing so? Obama should just fine people for dying, and therefore end death.

Obama is threatening Iran still.  Has he ever mentioned Dimona?  How about Mordechai Vanunu?  Are we out of Iraq yet?

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/23/10 at 5:47 pm

When you start calling the feeble attempt at health care reform FASCIST, you show your true Limbaugh colors.

Get help before you hurt yourself or someone you love. Your misplaced anger distorts your view of reality more than you want to hear about.

I’m done trying to coax any reasonableness out of you.

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/23/10 at 6:31 pm

“When you start calling the feeble attempt at health care reform FASCIST, you show your true Limbaugh colors.”

No, it simply demonstrates I know what fascism is.

Although it’s defined poorly in the social sense, it’s quite clear in the economic system it has.  When a corporations controls government well enough to advantage themselves, it’s fascism.

So, the bailouts isn’t capitalism, it’s fascism.  It’s often thought of as capitalism by liberals, but it isn’t. The US is increasingly fascist, and both parties are.

The reason you don’t know what fascism is, is because if you knew what it was, you might fight it.  You might be more comfortable with the term “statism”.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/23/10 at 7:16 pm

David Pine:

I think we can all acknowledge the fact is that Islamic culture demands racial purity.  When Jews move into the neighborhood Mohammedans get angry.

But so what?  Islamic values should not determine humanity’s values. 

If anything - if we truly want Peace Now - you should join the campaign to exterminate those aspects of Islamic culture which are inconsistent with human standards.  The destruction of the left-wing governments of Iraq and Afghanistan was a great start!  What was your position on that?  (I say “start” because at the end of the day the problem is the wicked Islamic “Iraqian” and “Afghani” PEOPLE not their left-wing rulership.)

Comment by Barry on 11/24/10 at 11:32 am

Well, again the moderator doesn’t seem fit to post my reply, so I’ll make another.

Fascism, the economic system of fascism, is statism.  This is when certain corporations control the government well enough to give them an upper hand in what is otherwise a capitalist system.  The bailouts are fascist, the health care bill advantages NOBODY but insurance providers.  KBR being employed is fascism, because there are no competitive bids - all of them are no bid contracts, and KBR was just an oil exploration corporation.

Just what kind of moron thinks it helps the poor to make it illegal for them not to pay for something they cannot afford?  That’s your health care bill.  Enjoy it!

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/24/10 at 12:21 pm

Well, again the moderator doesn’t seem fit to post my reply, so I’ll make another.

Fascism, the economic system of fascism, is statism. This is when certain corporations control the government well enough to give them an upper hand in what is otherwise a capitalist system.  The bailouts are fascist, the health care bill advantages NOBODY but insurance providers.  KBR being employed is fascism, because there are no competitive bids - all of them are no bid contracts, and KBR was just an oil exploration corporation.

Just what kind of moron thinks it helps the poor to make it illegal for them not to pay for something they cannot afford?  That’s your health care bill.  Enjoy it!

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/24/10 at 12:23 pm

ell, again the moderator doesn’t seem fit to post my reply, so I’ll make another.

Fascism, the economic system of fascism, is statism.  This is when certain corporations control the government well enough to give them an upper hand in what is otherwise a capitalist system.  The bailouts are fascist, the health care bill advantages NOBODY but insurance providers.  KBR being employed is fascism, because there are no competitive bids - all of them are no bid contracts, and KBR was just an oil exploration corporation.

Just what kind of moron thinks it helps the poor to make it illegal for them not to pay for something they cannot afford?  That’s you are defending.  You’re a stooge.

Comment by Richard wicks on 11/24/10 at 12:30 pm

I have a question for the moderator.

What purpose do you have in censoring posters here?  I’m just curious as to what meets your requirements.  To me, censorship is a form of cowardice.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/25/10 at 2:20 am

I just returned from 5 weeks in the Middle East. People are suffering, but excessively in the balance it is the Palestinians, especially the 1.5 million in Gaza. This is a hard fact and will not go away. Israel must deal with this fact today, or her children will suffer from the repercussions, as will her supporters, like my USA. Both Muslim and Jew have behaved like idiots for half a century, far distancing themselves from the moral objectives of their holy books. And what honest “Christian” should support either faction in this battle?... [continued next] ...

Comment by John Elliott on 11/26/10 at 8:22 am

... [continued] ...  The world is tired of cleaning up the messes from the shortsighted and sabre-rattling idiots in power in the PLO, Israeli government, Knesset, Hamas, IDF and now the Egyptian Mukhabarat. We are tired of all the difficulties in our lives caused by the festering hatred on both sides. We are tired of living under a dark cloud. We appeal to rational minds to focus on the children of this unfolding human debacle. Women, especially, must grab hold of the rudder of public and international policy. Because it’s mainly the men who have destroyed any path to moderation and sanity. Remember the children!

Comment by John Elliott on 11/26/10 at 8:24 am

Waiting 4 days to get my post approved.  Provided my actual email address, and no word one why censorship is necessary.

This relegates this site to another worthless site where what is said is not the same thing as what is allowed to be seen.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/29/10 at 1:08 pm

“When you start calling the feeble attempt at health care reform FASCIST, you show your true Limbaugh colors.”

Apparently I have been granted the ability to post again.

I’m always amused when people are trying to hammer me into either the “liberal” or “conservative” camp.  Both do the same thing.

Guantanamo is still open, both wars are still one, warrantless wiretapping continues.

The economic system of forcing the public to purchase a private service is quite clearly fascism.  It is, get over it.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/29/10 at 1:11 pm

Handala has written that “israel illegally declared themselves a naiton (sic) on land that was not theirs.” Israel is the Promised Land given to the Jews by God if you believe the Bible. Even if you don’t believe the Bible, it is an historic fact that there was a Jewish State there for thousands of years. The Arabs never owned land there in ancient times. Muslims didn’t even exist before the 7th century. If you want to give land back to the rightful owners give the United States back to the Indians, give Australia back to the Aboriginals, give Mexico back to the descendants of the Mayans, etc.

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/29/10 at 2:16 pm

They don’t give it back Mel because they would be exxposed as having stolen it to begin with! They have called it booty and victory to kill and rape and destroy and they hold the land they did not buy or create as theirs.When Samuel went to HaShem and told him the people wanted man to rule over them, HaShem told Samuel what would happen and it has and is!
When Messiah bears the gov on HIS shoulders there will be no fascists, liberals or parties and that is worth looking forward too.

Comment by Gracie on 11/29/10 at 2:40 pm

Before anyone assaults me for faith and belief in HaShem and Messiah, Yeshua HaMassiah, let me say here that I don’t give a flying rats rear whether folks dissagree with me, I stand on my belief and know it to be true.Fascists are conformists to a world they would rather fit into than to change and to go along with a majority. In this case there is no safety in numbers of a worldly majority because we will all stand before our Creator in the end and not the world or the worldly. Abba Yahwehs Strength is our Courage.

Comment by Gracie on 11/29/10 at 2:52 pm

I find most of the postings above hate-filled, moronic and juvenile.  I am embarrassed that they come jewish people who hold the tradition of studied questioning as ideal.

The lack of self-awareness, and paranoid conclusions you seem to enjoy drawing, indicate you need to vent elsewhere, and get help before you hurt yourselves or someone you love.

And Richard, if mandatory healthcare is Fascism, then Britain, Sweden, Israel and others are all fascist states,  Now pay for your own healthchare having just shot yourself in the foot!

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 11/29/10 at 4:11 pm

“And Richard, if mandatory healthcare is Fascism”

Mandatory health care is not fascism.  I have stated this pretty clearly.

Having a government require citizens to purchase a product using force, that is fascism.  Having a government using taxpayer money to support a private corporation is fascism.  Having a government pass laws to specifically target an individual corporation either to it’s benefit or it’s detriment is fascism.

Public health care however is socialism.  Nothing wrong with socialism if your government isn’t corrupt, and the citizens aren’t stupid.

Comment by Richard Wicks on 11/29/10 at 4:18 pm

I just returned from 5 weeks in the Middle East. People are suffering, but excessively in the balance it is the Palestinians, especially the 1.5 million in Gaza. This is a hard fact and will not go away. Israel must deal with this fact today, or her children will suffer from the repercussions, as will her supporters, like my USA. Both Muslim and Jew have behaved like idiots for half a century, far distancing themselves from the moral objectives of their holy books. And what honest “Christian” should support either faction in this battle?

Comment by John Elliott on 11/29/10 at 4:29 pm

... [continued from above] ...  The world is tired of cleaning up the messes from the shortsighted and sabre-rattling idiots in power in the PLO, Israeli government, Knesset, Hamas, IDF and now the Egyptian Mukhabarat. We are tired of all the difficulties in our lives caused by the festering hatred on both sides. We are tired of living under a dark cloud. We appeal to rational minds to focus on the children of this unfolding human debacle. Women, especially, must grab hold of the rudder of public and international policy. Because it’s mainly the men who have destroyed any path to moderation and sanity. Remember the children!

Comment by john Elliott on 11/29/10 at 4:31 pm

John Elliot, I have NEWS for you. Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians. So any mess in Gaza is up to the Palestinians. If you spent all that time in the Middle East I hope you had a chance to visit Israel and see what a wonderful country it is—with Jews, Christians and Muslims living together. Compare this with the Arab countries where Muslims are killing other Muslims, Muslims are killing Christians, and Muslims are not killing Jews only because they were all driven out with just the clothes on their backs.

Comment by Mel Wacks on 11/29/10 at 4:36 pm

Mel Wacks you should do some study before spouting off. There are thousands of Jews living in the Middle East, excluding Israel. When I was in Egypt I spoke with some of them, and in fact also visited the Israeli Consulate in Cairo. The “mess in Gaza” is totally the fault of Israel, which has systematically created an Apartheid situation for decades. As to your earlier comments, you betray your ignorance about the history of Palestine and Palestinians, and I would suggest you look on Wikipedia under Palestine and Canaan to understand the historical perspective.

Comment by John Elliott on 11/29/10 at 9:22 pm

.....The Palestinians were mentioned in the Bible (“Philistines”) and Arab people have been living in most of Israel for 2.5 millennia, from BEFORE Islam was founded. You should learn that not all Palestinians are Muslim, btw.

Comment by John Elliott on 11/29/10 at 9:22 pm

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