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July 26, 2011

Norway tragedy: A new twist on hate

By Rob Eshman

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In 1980, for the umpteenth time, someone asked the Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal whether “it could happen again” — “it” being the Holocaust.

“You take hatred and technology and you add in a crisis, and anything can happen,” Wiesenthal replied.

Last week, something tragic, horrific, almost beyond words happened.

A man filled with hate, empowered by Internet technology, took out his rage on innocent men, women and, especially, children in Norway. The death toll as of this writing has reached 76, with an untold number still missing.

If there are 1,000 faces of God, it turns out there also are at least that many of hate. The murderer, Anders Behring Breivik, this time around is a self-proclaimed Zionist, someone whose 1,300-page online manifesto praises Israel, the Jews, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and even Theodor Herzl, the founding father of Zionism.

And so this 32-year-old man has redefined the stereotype of the European right-wing fundamentalist. We are confronting now a murdering, minority-hating, Jew-loving, Israel-supporting, fascist, Christian, neo-Nazi — the head spins.

I don’t want to make too much of the fact that Breivik in his diatribe aligned himself with Israel and the Jews. I don’t want to pull focus from the victims or their anguished survivors, nor give him credit for having a coherent “ideology.”

“He’s a cut-and-paste Internet weirdo,” Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, said to me on Monday. “You take a guy who’s meshugge and you empower him through the Web. You give him a sense of community.”

True. But Breivik is also the extreme embodiment of those whose approach to the very serious problem of Muslim integration into Western liberal societies is to denigrate all of Islam, to spread fear and to turn the inevitable demographic changes in Europe into a clash of civilizations.

There are many Web sites where adherents of this particular brand of racism connect, stew and brew with one another. Islamversuseurope.blogspot.com (“Where Islam Spreads, Freedom Dies”) even now posts an apologia for the child killer, essentially blaming Muslims for Breivik’s massacre of Christian children. 

These people may think they have an ally in the Jews and Israel. They think they have our back. But our job is to inform them, loudly and clearly, that they don’t. The Jewish reaction to all this should be this: Take your hate elsewhere. To paraphrase our prophet Groucho Marx, we don’t want to be part of any club like this that would have us as a member.

Last February, a delegation of leaders from extreme right European parties toured Israel as a sign of solidarity and support. The trip went all but unnoticed except in a Newsweek article, which pointed out that an Israeli businessman, Chaim Muehlstein, subsidized the journey. 

They visited Yad Vashem and the West Bank settlement of Har Bracha. They met with some leaders of the Likud. 

According to Newsweek, they included “a Belgian politician known for his contacts with SS veterans, an Austrian with neo-Nazi ties, and a Swede whose political party has deep roots in Swedish fascism,” but the Israelis excused the anti-Semitic roots of their guests by pointing out that they had proclaimed their solidarity with Israel against the Muslims.

Most Israeli politicians shunned the delegation, as they should have. Anyone not blinded by Islamo-fear could see through the ploy.

“If you are against Muslims, then there is a certain reason to position yourself with Israel, because it is the single greatest irritant to the Muslims, therefore they’re to be admired,” Michael Berenbaum, a leading Holocaust scholar and professor of history at American Jewish University, told me. 

“They use Israel because they are anti-Semitic enough to believe that Jews control things.”

Cooper, an expert on European neo-fascism, believes Israel’s support from these groups is skin-deep, if that.

“They think my enemy’s enemy is my friend,” he said. “But we’re really talking about people who are anti-Muslim, not pro-Jewish.”

The ironies and fallacies of recruiting Jews to this cause are many. 

The hatred is partly a reaction to radical Islamic violence and increased Muslim population in Europe.

It is also, as Ravi Shankar, executive editor of the New India Express, has pointed out, a kind of Jew hatred without Jews — an extension, I suppose, of the true meaning of “anti-Semite.”

“Europe’s Muslim population of 15 million will become 30 million by 2015, while Europeans will shrink by 4 per cent,” Shankar writes at al-Arabiya.com. “Princeton academic and Islamic scholar Bernard Lewis famously said, ‘Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century.’ 
If Friday’s bombings in Oslo [are] a dark harbinger of troubled times, soon Muslims will be the new Jews of Europe. For all the old Jews are dead: murdered by fellow Europeans …

“Now the reverse is happening in Europe. It is the presence of Muslims in Europe that is the source of social panic and anger. The fear of being overwhelmed and alienated in their own country by outsiders who they think will breed terrorists. All this makes a fertile breeding ground for anti-Islamic neo-Nazism.”

And in this argument lies yet another fallacy, that Israel is against Arabs.

Israel’s population is about 15 percent Muslim, and their rights, like everyone else’s, are protected in the country’s Basic Laws.  Israel’s leaders recognize in fact, if not always in deed, the importance of coexistence, equal rights and integration.

And that is why a person like Breivik would find his head spinning if he looked at the fact that Muslims in Israel have greater rights to free speech than they do in most Muslim countries, as well as the freedom to practice their religion. Israel’s record on Arab minority rights isn’t perfect, but it reflects the values of Judaism that supersede those of pure tribalism.

The natural alignment here isn’t of Breivik and the Islamophobes being in accord with Israel and the Jews. The true alliance must be for people of all faiths in all nations to join together to fight against fanaticism. With the tragedy in Norway, we once again see we are essentially living in one world divided into two nations: The great majority of us — and Fanatistan.

The ultimate goal of right-wing extremists and Islamic extremists is to undermine tolerant and open societies. 

This new crop of fanatics may see Judaism as a tribe with which they can make a strategic anti-Islam alliance. But that is a misconception. Judaism has a tribal aspect, but it is more than just a tribe. It is a set of laws and values that Jews believe God set before that tribe, and which they must adhere to (with room for argumentation and interpretation, thank God). 

Those values pretty much preclude the murder of innocents, baseless hatred and the death penalty for people guilty of nothing more than that you fear them for being different. 

The pragmatic solution to the real problems of European immigration and integration is first to confront those issues — Europe has a poor track record on this. 

“You need an intelligent debate from the center,” Cooper said.  

“Otherwise it’s a gold-plated invitation to extremists to walk into the mainstream of society.”

And while we hope for that debate to happen, we need to make clear to the extremists that we share no common cause, that the enemy of our enemy can be our biggest nightmare.

A version of this article appeared in print.

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If every European country currently groaning under the weight of its Muslim population exerted its national will and reclaimed its sovereign prerogatives then the “inevitable demographic changes” of which you write would be far from inevitable.

The “clash of civilizations” you mention is already underway due not to Islamophobia, as the one-way multiculturalist pimps would have us believe, but due to Islamonausea a phenomenon that comes from the sinking realization that the clash is really between civilization and barbarism.

Comment by Paul Schnee on 7/28/11 at 1:15 pm

He killed innocent children, who where teenagers wanted to learn how to kill Jews from Hamas. Norway has turned against itself and is moving towards Islam. It is anti Semitic and Anti Israel. It has turned good into evil and black into white. How can I or any educated person believe anything from that country.

Comment by Robin Rosenblatt on 7/28/11 at 1:39 pm

Oy, Robin, where did you get that information? It’s just not true! Kids in the Labour Party do not learn how to kill Jews. Is Norway full of anti-Semites? Yes, but show me anywhere that isn’t. There are also lots of people that support Israel as well, and are ashamed of people like Quisling.

Comment by Rina on 7/28/11 at 2:07 pm

Paul—

Your own immigrant relatives would be appalled at the hard heartedness and the bigotry you show,

They did not suffer for you to become this.  You are turning into the oppressor.

Comment by The Logician on 7/28/11 at 3:06 pm

Rob—

Thank you for that excellent and much needed clarification of what Norway really represents.

I hope your readers think long and hard about the universalism of their own faith, and the challenge to people of conscience to be better than those who would destroy them.

Yours is a voice of reason, hope and possibility.

Many thanks.

I hope your readers

Comment by Jim Ruxin on 7/28/11 at 3:12 pm

Alerted observers have been long aware that there is a convergence of sociopathology among all extreme fundamentalists (whether in a large religious movement or political party). Your constant reference to the “Zionist” connecton and Netanyahu’s personal name in this particular sociopath’s musings and to keep cautioning us, by implication, against expressing our vulnerability from the Far Left (including the Moslem fundamentalist variety) is as dangerous as overlooking Fascist elements themselves. Please don’t let this mega-event reinforce other political biases on your part—the whole landscape has not been changed, just reinforced.

Comment by Irving S. White on 7/28/11 at 3:24 pm

I mean no disrespect for Rob; this one is tough. It is a lot easier to take the high road when you live in LA. It’s much harder to live in that tiny country, under siege, constantly berated, hated and delegitimized, and than slap a hand that is extended to you.  Leaving with 20.4% rogue Muslim population (not 15% as mentioned in the article, and this does not include the WB)which hates your guts, dances on rooftops and passes candies each time we burry our dead does take a toll on the kind spirit.  I can see your point Rob, but it is really, really hard.

Comment by Avi on 7/28/11 at 3:32 pm

Dear Logician,

My immigrant relatives refused to suffer the insufferable or tolerate the intolerable. When they heard hoof-beats they looked for horses not unicorns thus they understood the full meaning of Thomas Mann’s observation that “Tolerance is a crime when applied to evil”. Had more people understood this the Holocaust could have been avoided.

Understandig it now could halt the relentless march of Islamic totalitarianism which threatens to give us all a one-way ticket back to the 7th. century under the brutal and gruesome apparatus of Sharia law.

There’s a difference between being a bigot and a realist. To avoid being played for a fool it’s best not to get the two confused.

Comment by Paul Schnee on 7/28/11 at 3:38 pm

Europe’s social fabric is being torn apart by Islamic immigration. But it is not inevitable that Europe quietly surrender. It needs to summon the guts to stop Muslim immigration, and of those already there, require integration and conformity to civilized norms. Those who are incapable of decent behavior (e.g., think they are entitled to attack Jews, gang-rape non-Muslim women, mutilate girls and force underage marriages), should be evicted from Europe or imprisoned if that is impossible. Norway, in particular, needs to rediscover its inner Viking.

Comment by Davidka on 7/28/11 at 4:11 pm

If this sad event serves to focus attention on the precipitating problem—- the daily mayhem caused by uncontrolled Muslim immigration, much of it fraudulent, combined with Islamist attitudes and behavior—- then the dead will not have died in vain. If, however, the heads-in-the-sand Left exploits the tragedy to attack those warning of the danger, the time will come when the victims curse the Left from their graves.

Comment by Davidka on 7/28/11 at 4:15 pm

It is very interesting there are people with such twisted mind that are able to connect the killing of Christian children by a Zionist to Muslim propaganda,,!

Wondered what would have happened if the guy had claimed to be a pro Muslim?

It is amazing that all the fascist groups including Neo Nazis have the flags of Israel in their hands and Israel has turned to a new heaven for Neo-Nazis.

I think I could conclude this that after Jews now Muslims and Arabs are the centre of Anti-Semitism (regarding the fact that they are Semitic probably more pure than Jews)

Comment by Noam Bergmann on 7/28/11 at 5:31 pm

One has no way of knowing to what degree bloggers on the JJ sire reflect the opinions of its overall readership but if what I have seen while posting comments over the past year or so is anywhere close to a true reflection, the Jewish community is in serious trouble, not from outsiders but from itself.

What I have seen in the comments section in the several Journal articles that have dealt with the Norway incident seem to rationalize Breivik’s murderous rampage and differ only by a slim degree from the anti-Muslim websites in this country that inspired him to commit his bloody deeds.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/28/11 at 7:03 pm

Breivik is a cancer, ok, but one generated by Left radical-chic attitude towards multiculturalism of any kind. Only a strong block, without any trade-off, against Arab-muslim culture in Europe can stop these crazy reactions.

Comment by Andrea on 7/29/11 at 3:41 am

Israeli—
You’re right, arab and muslim culture is not out of its natural contest in Israel. But in Europe we shouldn’t accept that the worse sides of this culture put roots. That’s my opinion.

Comment by Andrea on 7/29/11 at 7:38 am

Andrea—

Breivik opposues multiculturism, Lefties embrace it.  You have it wrong.

By your thinking, all foreigners should go home.  Does that mean mean American Jews have no place here or anywhere but Israel?

Your position denies the human need and ability to move, adapt, change, progress and even “improve.”

It’s hypocritical to claim a Jewish moral high road, and insist on the same expulsion of Muslims that Jews endured for centuries.

Poland was 30+% Jewish for centuries and they all prospered until the Holocaust.

You betray your own history.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 8:11 am

Logician, with all due respect to your views, I think they are over simplistic. You are glossing over some problems unique to Muslim immigration and Islamist ideology. I don’t hear much European outrage with Chinese and Hindus (though I might be wrong, I am not an expert). Jews have never attempted to impose anything similar to Sharia laws on others, nor do rabbis declare their intention to take over, as so many European imams openly announce. Perhaps this has something to do with the fear of others toward Islam?

Comment by Avi on 7/29/11 at 11:30 am

Hollywood Jeff: In the past you must have come across the many liberal websites who could not hide their glee at the sight of Jews exploding by Arab bombs.  Leftist empathy often went for those who danced on rooftops and passed candies when Jews were burying their dead. In addition, many of them—including you in this forum – have often expressed views on Jews and Israel which identical to neo-Nazi sites. So your accuasations are quite puzzling. Having said so, I agree with your disappointment about the lack of sympathy towards the innocent victim of this horrific act. All I am saying, by singling out Jews you are showing your double standards.

Comment by Avi on 7/29/11 at 11:50 am

AVI—

I agree Muslim immigrants are different in some ways from past generations of Jews and other immigrants.
It is a cultural as well as religious difference.

But Jews must still take the high road and not condemn all Muslims or all immigrants.  Give them a chance to be human and they will be…for the most part.

You would do better to police the racist opinions of others in this thread who think Muslims less than human.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 1:32 pm

Avi—

Hollywood Jeff is not a neo-Nazi and does not throw labels around like you do.

Not all liberals are alike and only a very few dance with glee at ISraeli deaths.  You debase yourself by such trashy generalizations.

You need a reminder that the world is not black and white. Because a view is different from yours does not mean it is in opposition.

Jeff calls for a different Israel, not its destruction.

You and others seem to take so much comfort in condmening Muslims and “liberals” it is a real mystery why you have so little imagination.  I think this hatred is a substitute for other kinds of anger you have not examined.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 1:37 pm

Logician, (1)Don’t put words in my mouth (2)I have never said HJ is neo-Nazi. Unlike him, I do not use this label lightly. But I was pointing out the similarities between his rhetoric and theirs. (3) I have NEVER thought ALL liberals are the same, and never will. Unlike you, I do not broad brush liberals like you do to conservatives. (4) I did not say liberals were dancing but I said those who were dancing had been getting liberal sympathies. (5) HJ actually openly called for ending Israel as a Jewish Zionist entity a number of times. He is a supporter of bi-national state. Just because he’s liberal does not make him your friend.

Comment by Avi on 7/29/11 at 2:27 pm

Logician, save me the preaching about liberals and Muslims. I will bet you a million dollars I have many more GOOD friends than you who are Arab Muslims. And MOST of my BEST friends (and they are many) are (unfortunately) liberals. I do not carry ill will toward people for their opinions if they do not hate me(unlike you). Shabbat Shalom, my friend

Comment by Avi on 7/29/11 at 2:37 pm

Avi—

I don’t hate you.  I just see you in a way impossible for you to grasp.

I think you need to have some things pointed out about how you react to others.

Ask a friend.  I am obviously no good to you.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 3:39 pm

At the time you wrote your op-ed and authorized the JTA coverage the facts were known: he was a loner, he was not part of any organized group, he had no associates.He urged alliance with India as well as Israel. He idolized Ted Kaczynski, who idolized Al Gore & he cited the work of political philosophers and writers including John Stuart Mill, George Orwell, John Locke, Edmund Burke, Winston Churchill &Thomas; Jefferson.You,the NY Times & the left wing of the blogosphere have used his reference to your ideological opponents as a means of blaming the ideas propounded by conservative thinkers and the thinkers themselves for Breivik’s heinous crimes.

Comment by LT COL HOWARD on 7/29/11 at 5:37 pm

LC Howard, well said.

Comment by Avi on 7/29/11 at 5:46 pm

The next thing you’ll be telling us, Avi, is that some of your best friends are Jews.

Howard, I have a hunch you don’t have any friends.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/29/11 at 5:58 pm

To conduct a focused, reasonable dialogue ignore the pathetic provocations of Hollywood Jeff, the logician, and those others who seek to hijack the discussions. Present facts.  The JJ makes it difficult to counter Eshman & his stable such as Marty Kaplan since they have thousands of characters with which to spin and responders are limited to 700 characters. Those who demand citations are entitled to get them. However, the “webmaster” rejects attempts to give citations by stating that it appears the entry is “spam” and will be reviewed for publication (which it never is). The Washington Post, Haaratz, the Jerusalem Post, etc. welcome feedback. Apparently JJ &  Eshman do not

Comment by LT COL HOWARD on 7/29/11 at 7:20 pm

HOward—

So why do you bother reading the LA Jewish Journal if you despise Eshman and Kaplan.  They have to srve a lot of people and Eshman gives cretins like Dennis Prager a bully pulpit sometimes.

I can see why Jeff bothers you, because he pushes Israel so hard, but that is no reason to call him names.
He defends Israel’s right to exist.

No one wants to hijack the discussion.  I just want to improve the level of thoughfulness and truthfulness among all the angry people who post here.

Fox News welcomes your comments as does the Wall Street Journal and

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 7:44 pm

Logician, let me repeat what was said earlier: Holly Jerk has repeatedly rejected, I repeat REJECTED Jewish rights for self determination in their historic homeland. Let me dumb it down for you: Holly Jerk sees Israel as a bi-national country. I am not sure I understand your game, you proclaim to be a Zionist.

Comment by Mini on 7/29/11 at 9:03 pm

LT COL: You are not speaking for me… This place is going to be boring w/o these two. They add some fun and entertainment… As said above, they “improve the level of thoughtfulness”. For example, here is gem by Logician, from just a few days ago: Milton Friedman is no longer relevant! (or something like that). Why, oh why would you want to stop that, sir? Logy and Jeff, come on, fill up my day!

Comment by FU on 7/29/11 at 9:11 pm

Mini and FU—

Milton Friedman was a stark monetarist Reagan and cronies discovered to justify the notion of trickle down to themselves.

This country has been suffering ever since.

Friedman is no more a cure-all today than Keynes, but the strict application of his theories perpetuates the cycle of poverty, declining infrastructure, sub-rosa economies (not taxed by the way) and the arrogance of the weathy who feel more entitled than the poor because of their wealth.

Since you deny to the Jewish imperative of tikkun olam anyway, I doubt you would consent to being so obligated to think more universally.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 9:31 pm

Breivik was not a Fundamentalist Christian

Breivik describes himself as not religious .  his manifesto clarifies what he means by Christian.

Q: Do I have to believe in God or Jesus to become a Justiciar Knight?

no, you don’t need to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus to fight for our Christian cultural heritage. It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist who wants to preserve the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy

Breivik did call himself a Christian, but meant that in a cultural sense. He emphasized that he was not seeking a theocracy, but a secular society. His idea of a Christian Europe had nothing to do with religion

Comment by cHRISTIAN SERVICE WORKER on 7/29/11 at 10:39 pm

Thank you for the clarification, and I don;t blame you for distancing yourself from him.

Fanatics like him use ideas to justify their actions, but they betray those ideas.  I think so many of the terrorists, domestic and foreign, are seriously ill people, and their attraction to a cause is only to find some justifucation for indulging their basest and most unexamined hatred, anger and pain.

I do not excuse them.  I think n o person of conscience could ever commit such an act.

Comment by The Logician on 7/29/11 at 11:06 pm

Rob.  Lovely article.  Amazed at the number of wacko responses.

Comment by cometboy on 7/29/11 at 11:11 pm

Well said Cometboy: Lets go dancing to night.  These wakos have social life.  Are you anywhere near San Antonio,Tx?

Comment by Honey Bee on 7/30/11 at 8:28 am

Christian Svc Wkr: Facts don’t matter in this case. As long as he is Christian he’s guilty by default. And if he has ever said anything positive about Israel—he’s twice as guilty.

Comment by Mini on 7/30/11 at 12:49 pm

How bout it,  a secular Christian!  Are there secular Muslims?

Comment by Honey Bee on 7/30/11 at 3:21 pm

On 2/8/11 Eshman criticized the Israeli government and American Jews for being concerned about developments in Egypt.In the fight for freedom they have been bold; we have been cautious.
They have acted without fear; we have withheld our applause. They have sacrificed; we have remained suspicious. They have stood before tank turrets and raised the Egyptian flag. We have logged into chat rooms and raised red flags.
Since then much has happened to justify the fears of the “pessimists”  Times Topic: Egypt News — Revolution and Aftermath

Comment by LT COL HOWARD on 7/30/11 at 3:31 pm

Unfortunately, those who voiced concerns were correct. I’m still awaiting a correction from Eshman.
     

At a demonstration Friday in Cairo’s Tahrir Square billed as a show of national unity adherents to religious movements outnumbered other voices.
The shape of Egypt 5 months into its revolution remains undecided.  Islamists are by far the best organized political force in this religiously conservative country. Tens of thousands of Egyptian Islamists poured into Tahrir Square calling for a state bound by strict religious law , delivering a persuasive show of force in a turbulent country showing deep divisions& growing polarization

Comment by LT COL HOWARD on 7/30/11 at 3:40 pm

Again, Col. Howard has it 100% correct.

Comment by Moderate Muslim on 7/30/11 at 3:42 pm

It is naive to think the Egyptians will reorganzie themselves in our interests and not their own.

Any revolution produces unexpected results, and it is time post colonial tyrants fell in tat region. Egypt will not be another Iran, even if the Muslim Brotherhood there assumes more power than their numbers.

You must constantly adjust your expectartions in geopolitics, and not cry over what cannot be undone.

We are not the center of their world, and it is naive and unfair to expect them to make us that.  At the same time, we must do all we can to insure other tyrants do not take over in this period of change.

So quit blaming Eshman the Jewish Journal for

Comment by The Logician on 7/30/11 at 4:53 pm

Hmm… * Egypt will not be another Iran, take it from Logician! ** “It is naive to think Egyptians will reorganize themselves in our interests and not their own… [but] at the same time we must do all we can to insure other tyrants do not take over in this period of change…” Logy, I am getting a headache THIS BIG!

Comment by Peter on 7/30/11 at 9:04 pm

Peter—

May your head ache so much it fills the void that is there.

Between Advils, or loving letters from evangelicals, have you thought of the policy we should take on Egypt that would be more productive for the US, Israel and peace in the region?

Comment by The Logician on 7/30/11 at 10:16 pm

Logy, my answer is YES: Stay out of it. It’s not our business. Let’s take care of America first. And thanks for your blessings

Comment by Peter on 7/30/11 at 10:40 pm

Curious to know what is Logician’s proposal for the US to insure [sic] other tyrants do not take over in this period of change?

Comment by Mini on 7/30/11 at 10:44 pm

Hmmm. I see a lot of activity here today. My two cents: I agree with Peter. Our interference in the region (see Iran, 1953, Iraq, 1958, Afghanistan 1979, is in many ways responsible for what we see in the region today.

And Honey Bee wonders if there are secular Muslims. Yes, I know a few, even once had a drink with one in Amman and there are plenty in Beirut which next to Rio is the center for cosmetic surgery in case you’re thinking of taking a trip. Quite a few nightclubs as well.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/30/11 at 10:58 pm

HJeff:  What did you have done, in Beirut?  Mini and I are curious.  Next tie you go take Logician with he could use some work!

Comment by Honey Bee on 7/31/11 at 8:22 am

Peter—
Stay out of it?  Then why are you complaining about the US at all?

Mini—
I have no practical answers, as neither do you or Peter who sticks his headache into the sand and complains.

READ THIS:  WE CANNOT CONTROL WHAT GOES ON IN OTHER COUNTRIES ENTIRELY NOR SHOULD WE.

THE CONSEQUENCE IS:WE CANNOT MAKE GEOPOLITICAL DECISIONS BASED PRIMARILY ON ISRAEL.

Honey Bee—
This is neither a competiton nor a schoolyard fight. It’s people like you who lower the level of discourse.

LESSON FOR ALL:
Stop thinking so selfishly and think smarter.  Pro-Israel with constructive criticism and persuasion, not indulgent and hypocritical defensiveness.

Comment by The Logician on 7/31/11 at 8:56 am

Logician darlin, your breaking my heart.  The way you insult people ,caall your opponants nazie, I though you were tougher.  Like all bullies you run at a challenge.

Comment by Honey Bee on 7/31/11 at 9:03 am

Perhaps someone can answer my question. Considering the personal abuse he heaps on his opponents, is “The Logician” a nom de plume for Eshman et.al.?

As for what to do about Egypt—- what has happened is a disaster. Mubarak was no angel, but he was more or less our ally for 30 years. Obama sided with the Muslim Brotherhood and stabbed Mubarak in the back. What is coming—- an Egypt controlled, openly or sub rosa by the MB, is a hundred times worse for the U.S., Egypt, Israel and everyone else. B.O. consistently sides with Muslims against the West, and with the worst Muslims against the decent ones.

Comment by Davidka on 7/31/11 at 9:55 am

i’m a wasp in the usa. to me, it seems, all immagrants in past hx, wanted to come here for a better life. they wanted become Amercanized. they learned to speak English & become citizens because of our Constitution. wasps came here for the same reasons, as one of my teachers once said, your rights end at my nose. i don’t like to put down anyones religious beliefs. freedom of religion is a basic right. just please don’t toot your horn so loud it interferes with my meditation. love to all. fred

Comment by fred young on 7/31/11 at 10:09 am

Davidka—

There too many people in these threads spouting off from a too personal point view and operating out of a sense of wish fulfillment than pragmatic realism.

You want instant change and only in your favor, despite millenia of history telling us change is slow and those with a narrow view are always the losers.

The JJ and Eshman are moderate voices of reason.  Your criticism and paranoia…conspiracy theories now?....may give you comfort, but accomplish nothing.

I don’t see you or others coming to these threads with anything serious other than your own discomfort, anger, self-interest and lack of imagination, as well as your political naivete.

Comment by The Logician on 7/31/11 at 10:43 am

Honey Bee—

I have never called anyone a Nazi. I said people should be able to compare their claims and thinking to oppressive regimes and pull back on their hatred.

I support Jewish vigilance and self-defense.  Not Jewish narrow mindedness that borders on racism.

Our political and moral currency was tragically won with the bolld of six milllion. You threaten that high standing by adopting techniques and policies similar to our own oppressors.

You are not a Nazi. Nor are you a great reader.

Comment by The Logician on 7/31/11 at 10:47 am

From the comments I have seen of the attacks on this and other articles in the Journal, one would think it was Der Angriff or Der Sturmer (although some of you sound like you would have been subscribers to both). So what’s left but humor? HBee and Mini wanted to know what I had done in Beirut. A nose job, what else, and to enjoy some really terrific falafel. But what do Jews know from falafel?

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/31/11 at 1:38 pm

Logician -
First of all I am not jew,just to state facts. And yes, I oppose multiculturalism.At least in Europe.United States, Israel are countries made up of immigration, multiculturalism was in their DNA. In Europe immigrants should follow their host country’s habits almost totally. I blame the weak politicians ready to sell their countries in name of “progress”. Of course I support my ideas with words, and not with bullets,just to state it clear. Here in Europe many people are really fed up for this “invasion” masked as “immigration”.I know that here it’s impossible to find enough space and time to explain oneself better,but I think you all get the point.

Comment by Andrea on 7/31/11 at 2:47 pm

Norway Summer Camp OR Antisemitic Indoctrination Training Center?

Only the malevolent media could use the euphemism summer camp and get away with it. The slaughter was horrific. What these kids were being taught and instructed to do was a different kind of grotesque.

There is no justification for Breivik’s actions whatsoever. There is also no justification for Norway’s antisemitism and demonization of Israel.

Pamela Geller - http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/

Comment by paul jeser on 7/31/11 at 3:06 pm

Paul, you quote Pam Geller, the Queen of Hate? I’ll give you Glenn Beck, the King of Hate:

Glenn Beck Flip-Flops By Promoting And Criticizing Youth Political Camps

FRANKFORT, Ky.—Radio talk show host Glenn Beck criticized the notion of summer political camps for kids like the one in Norway where 68 people were killed last week, even though he has promoted similar camps in the U.S. where children are taught tea party principles. (cont.)

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/31/11 at 3:42 pm

(cont.)
“Who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing,” he said.

However, Beck has promoted similar camps called vacation liberty schools in the U.S. that teach the “virtues and morals” of the Founding Fathers. Lisa Abler, one of the founders of the liberty camp concept, said she appeared on Beck’s TV show a year ago to discuss the schools…

[T]he program is modeled after vacation Bible schools hosted by many mainline churches… Instead of teaching the Bible, the estimated 130 liberty school programs teach children about politics from Beck’s perspective.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/30/glenn-beck-flipflops-by-p_n_913975.html

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/31/11 at 3:47 pm

The tragedy and the horror of the slaughter can not and should not be minimized. On this we can all agree.

What was taught at that camp ,based on the documentation that has emerged, is hate of Jews and Israel. This does not mean that the children were not innocent victims–they were. This in no way excuses the atrocity that was committed.

What it means is that this camp like the PA summer camps and the Hamas summer camps are intended to produce a generation that instinctively hates and wants to destroy Israel.

Both are facts. One does not cancel the other.

Comment by HOWARD LAITIN on 7/31/11 at 5:08 pm

That’s your interpretation of what you read and not facts. By portraying people around the world who support a boycott of Israeli and/or settlement products as hating Israel and hating Jews just increases the numbers on the other side. That movement has come in response to the intransigence of the current Israeli government continues to expand settlements on the West Bank while at the same time denying that they are an obstacle to peace. That is why they are not only supported by some Norwegians but by a number of Israeli Jews which is why the Knesset passed a law making such support illegal,the passage of which has been criticized by every major US Jewish group but the ZOA. That is a fact.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 7/31/11 at 7:43 pm

HJ: That’s your interpretation of what you read and not facts

Jeff,  Scandinavian media had multiple views of the posters used the camp & descriptions of the content of the training showing exactly what was taught

Unfortunately both Jeff and logicon engage in personal attacks, half-truths, misquoting others & diverting the discussions by introducing points that that are irrelevant to these discussions

I used to be hopeful of peace & the utility of reasoned discussion.  IF HJ and logicon are representative of Jewish progressive thought ,then there is no hope for the future. Or do they just see themselves as postmodern, post-national, post-religious, “citizens of the world”?

Comment by Moderate Muslim on 7/31/11 at 11:20 pm

Moderate Muslim—

You obviously have not read anything I have written.

The personal attacks are regrettable, but talking to the people in thise thread is like herding cats.

What we need are more post-religionists who are citizens of the world and agree on the community of mankind. 

If you cannot support Israel and also criticize some of its policies, then you are not a realist.

You become a blind zealot.

Comment by The Logician on 7/31/11 at 11:34 pm

Moderate Muslim: #1. Make no mistake. HJ is very intelligent. I bet he knows exactly what was going on at the camp, but with his views he could make a good mentor there. #2. Yes, the two of them are pretty representative of progressive Jews (though Loggy does not hate Izzies). As for the future, a few years ago I attended a hate-Israel fest at All Saints Church in Pasadena. The most virulent ones were the Jews, and the most balanced ones were some young liberal Muslims audience. So may be there is hope for the future after all.

Comment by Avi on 7/31/11 at 11:45 pm

How will Jeff spin this into an attack on the IDF?

UNIFIL: IDF troops didn’t cross border - Ynetnews
Today, 3:53 AM

The Guardian  

UNIFIL: IDF troops didn’t cross border
Ynetnews
UNIFIL said Monday that Lebanese fire on IDF troops earlier in the day was uncalled for, and that the latter had not crossed into Lebanese territory, as the country’s army had claimed. The facts did not stop the Lebanese president from rebuking Israel ...
Netanyahu: Soldiers acted properly in Lebanon border clashJerusalem Post
Lebanese soldier killed in skirmish on Israel borderHa’aretz
Israel and Lebanon exchange shots on borderThe Guardian
Israel Today -Xinhua -CNN

Comment by LT COL HOWARD on 8/01/11 at 8:36 pm

Here’s one for you Mon Colonel: 

Der Spiegel probes link between Israel, Norway killer

German paper warns Europe’s right-wing Islamophobes have found willing allies in Likud

Der Spiegel has published an article probing the connection between Norway’s ruthless murderer, Anders Breivik, and Israel. The German magazine says the killer’s 1,500 page manifesto describes a link between right-wing extremists and members of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s coalition. (cont.)

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 8/01/11 at 10:33 pm

Ynet/ Spiegel (concluded):

The manifesto details at length Breivik’s support for a battle against Islam in Europe. The Der Spiegel article focuses on the connection “Islamophobic parties” in the continent may have with Israel, especially due to the Likud MK Ayoob Kara’s recent meetings with extreme rightists in Europe, which attracted criticism in Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4102754,00.html

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 8/01/11 at 10:35 pm

That’s a low blow. Besides after Oslo, Yasser was getting $8 million a month paid into his private account by the Israeli government which caused Natan Shransky to complain that Yasser’s PA was not being run democratically (Duh!) The Jewish Virtual Library noted that Yasser (he’s not my baby) had received $375 in such payments. Me, from Israel, I have mostly gotten tsuris.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 8/01/11 at 11:09 pm

HollyJ, No link to YNet (reporters practice yellow-journalism using embarrassing Hebrew grammar and degraded vocab, a testimony to their intellect and education) would make your allegations any less anti-Semitic. Like those Neo-Nazi websites you are on at night, you will find a Jew under every rock, but here are some facts for the other readers to consider:

Comment by Avi Zirler, La Canada, CA on 8/02/11 at 11:14 am

Israel is being hated by both the Norwegian left and the right. Liberal PM Jens Stoltenberg and his Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre have made numerous anti-Semitic/ anti-Israel remarks, as has former PM Kåre Willoch a Conservative, and a fierce critic of Israel. In May 2006 he invited Hamas official Atef Adwan to a private luncheon; Willoch would subsequently be accused of anti-Semitism by the WSJ for observing of President Obama’s appointment of Rahm Emanuel: “It does not look too promising, he has chosen a chief of staff who is Jewish.”

Comment by Avi Zirler, La Canada, CA on 8/02/11 at 11:15 am

Norway has a long history of deep anti-Semitism going back to Quisling, and rounding up Jews in WW2. As an advocate of refugees, where is your outrage: After WW2, Jewish survivors who managed to return to Norway found that their properties and businesses had been taken over by “Aryan” Norwegians. Those lucky enough to get their property back had to pay a steep “administration fee” for the privilege.

Comment by Avi Zirler, La Canada, CA on 8/02/11 at 11:15 am

Just to remove any doubt from your hearts, with all those wrongs, I would like to express my deep sympathy to the people of Oslo and those innocent kids who were victims of this horrific crime. Nothing can justify this barbaric attack.

Comment by Avi Zirler, La Canada, CA on 8/02/11 at 11:22 am

If the far Right in Israel behave 50% as virulently as the speech by anti-Muslim, pro-israel-at-any-price people in this thread, then it might be plausible that some approve of what Breivik did.

But then again, Der Spiegel is a pretty sensational organization and is just trying to sell copies and advertising.

You are all succumbing to conspiracy theories.  Time to get some help from a professional, or just admit that it is difficult to have insight into this from a non-professional distance.

Comment by The Logician on 8/02/11 at 11:23 am

i can’t find an article or comment addressed to my comment

Comment by fred & andy on 8/02/11 at 12:54 pm

First, I left out a key word in my post on Arafat being on the Israeli payroll. He received at least $375 million in his private account,not $375.

Second, glad you relieved my concerns Avi, I began to think you only valued Jewish lives like Plonie.

Comment by HollywoodJeff on 8/02/11 at 7:01 pm

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