Not yet a member? Register now.
Username
Password

February 9, 2010 3:05 pm PST

Advertise | Subscribe | Email Newsletter | Archive Search | |

	Israelis organize massive DC snowball fight Ahmadinejad supporters protest in front of Western embassies in Tehran Western embassies in Tehran attacked by Ahmadinejad supporters Netanyahu floats plan to allow Israelis abroad to vote Court upholds Jewish inmate’s death sentence Will U B My Valentine, Mr. Values? U.S. seeks sanctions ‘within weeks’ over Iran nuclear program Protesters Interrupt UCLA Lecture on Goldstone Report Protestors Arrested at UC Irvine as Israel Ambassador Speaks [VIDEO] Toyota crashes into N.Y. synagogue steps

COMMENTS

We welcome your feedback.

Privacy Policy

Your information will not be shared or sold without your consent. Get all the details.

yes, it is dumb, but it is also anti-Semitic - very anti-Semitic.

Comment by paul jeser on 3/26/09 at 2:38 pm

Rob:
      I read your articles all the time. But if you don’t think that this is definitely ant-semitic without pondering and wrestling with Jewish angst then your a lost soul.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 3/26/09 at 3:50 pm

Bill and Paul:  I rewrote my entry to clarify my comments. I hope my point is more clear.  Thanks for your feedback.  I’ll be on the Channel 4 News (KNBC)  at 6 pm making the same point…
rob

Comment by Rob Eshman on 3/26/09 at 4:22 pm

What Pat Oliphant did is not stupid.  It’s ignorant.  There’s a big difference.  What is anti-Semitic is that cartoon contributing to anti-Jewish notions and successfully finding its audience via most popular and reputable news source.  The endorsement that NY Times provides by publishing such bigotry filled imagery only validates that attacking Israel (along with its Arab population) and the Jews is justified.  Had woman in burka had been Hamas combatant, it may have qualified as “stupid” for publishers and cartoonist.  The message however, was clear.  Ignorance prevails once again.

Comment by Tatyana on 3/26/09 at 4:42 pm

Anti-semitic or not, I don’t care… but you don’t use white phosphorous on civilians and deny them access to humanitarian services, whatever your beliefs.  A total *ssh*le move.

Comment by steve on 3/26/09 at 5:22 pm

Steve:
      What’s the deal Steve, The Palestinians can just launch rockets into southern Israel forever. And nothing is supposed to happen to them. What’s that about.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 3/26/09 at 6:11 pm

I don’t see the anti-Semiticism or the stupidity of the cartoon. Outrage over some of the actions of the IDF during the recent invasion of Gaza justifies the cartoon. Compared with those actions, getting upset over a cartoon about it is silly.

Comment by Joshua on 3/26/09 at 6:23 pm

I despise this kind of garbage. Oliphant is from Austria…reminds me of another anti-semite who used to draw pictures like this. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm…*what* was his name….?
Oliphant and his ilk illustrate an adage: The Jews are the canaries in the coal mines. Evil always seems to attack the Jews…and then the rest of humanity. It seems that Israel has to allow TEN THOUSAND+ rockets to land in their towns and cities (without anyone saying anything about Hamas committing “War Crimes”), but when Israel defends itself, they scream their guts out.
*spit*
I’m sick of it. Run Oliphant out on a rail…

Comment by Jay Delgado on 3/26/09 at 6:33 pm

Jay:

Pat Oliphant is from Australia, I believe, not Austria. Unless you were trying to make a joke of some kind that I completely missed.

Comment by Joshua on 3/26/09 at 6:36 pm

The cartoon is bad, but your conclusion is wrong. The IDF represents Israel as a whole, and Israel – as a whole - deserves to be criticized for the Gaza operation (even if it had good reasons to engage in it, which can be debated as well).

It’s time even Israel’s friends be brave enough to admit to that.

Comment by noam on 3/27/09 at 2:09 am

ok, Noam, same question. When the southern part of your country is under attack from an entity that is totally dedicated to your destruction. And I trust that this view of Hamas is not debatable. Well, what’s your plan. I’m sure they would like to hear it in Jerusalem. But in the meantime. I think the only people that should have criticism here are people that have actually been in combat,have you? Has Oliphant. Or has Eshman.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 3/27/09 at 2:28 am

I asked earlier during the Gaza campaign what on Earth Israel was doing. I still ask. I am Jewish. The Gaza thing was wrong, way wrong. Israel is making life hard for the rest of us Jews. There, I said it. Israel is making antisemitism come alive again for us Jews who are not Israelis or Zionists. Israel is a country that never should have been We Jews do not need an Israel. Israel does not represent me, that’s for sure. What say my fellow Jews?

PS: Oliphant’s cartooon was not antisemitic. Was criticizing the state of Israel. He can do that. I agree with that cartoon, except for the goose-stepping shite. That was out of line, Pat!

Comment by ellen jardens on 3/27/09 at 2:46 am

Ellen please print this out. I say this has a member of aipac the dreaded LOBBY!!!!!.  Your absolved. Your not part of the greasy hook nosed, usurious rest of us. Your better, more noble. Jewish guys in the IDF who put their lives on the line. There just a piece of shit compared to you. People that observe quant little customs like shabbos and show up in a shul more than two or three times a year. Nothing compared to you. Your absolved.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 3/27/09 at 2:57 am

Eshman wisely avoids the usual argument about freedom of the press, which is the defense usually offered by editors who choose to run cartoons such as Oliphant’s.  Here we have a good example of the complete erosion of editorial standards—after all, the Post editors don’t publish ALL the nonsense they receive, whether in letters or cartoons or op-eds—and so I offer this as a friendly amendment to Eshman’s astute analysis:  it’s not just Oliphant who is pro-stupid, it’s the Washington Post editors.  At least they are in good company:  for reasons I can’t fathom (but friends tell me it’s part of a time-honored tradition over there) the New York Times has chosen to run a series of completely evidence-free columns by Roger Cohen and, worse yet, has rejected (apparently) all letters to the editor.  The race to the bottom of journalistic standards is fast and furious.

Comment by Michael on 3/27/09 at 3:34 am

Bill:
Let them be, leave them to their warped opinions based on warped facts.  No person who knows the facts and history of Arab-Israeli conflict can ever be ashamed by Israel or claim that somehow this country, which is nothing short of a miracle can somehow burden their existence as a Jew.  It is a Nation of a few million in an OCEAN of Arabs.  It always has to defend and justify its right for existence.  But to me personally, Israel exists because I never have to apologize for being Jewish.

Do you think these people take on crusade of defending victims of Tibet and Darfur?  I can with certainty say “No”, because their plight is not a for a humanitarian purpose.  Do you think they’ve even read the facts of recent IDF investigations or the alleged war crimes or actual casualty figures from the conflict?  I can with certainty say “No”.  Do you think that these people recognize that firing ONE bomb that deliberately targets civilian population is enough reason for war?  Before they make victims out of those who seek Israel’s destruction and separate Hamas from “human” Gaza element, do you think they ask themselves if terrorist organizations (Fatah included) are merely fulfilling promises they’ve made to their voters?  I can with certainty say “No.”

Israel is a democratic nation.  There are no greater critics of Israel than Israelis themselves.  What separates criticism from bigotry?  Willing notion to buy into deformation and demonization of the Country.  Let those self-hating Jews be, Bill.  Acknowledging this level of ignorance is merely benign.

Comment by Tatyana on 3/27/09 at 3:48 am

Ellen, anti-semitism has been alive and well since the Jews’ very beginnings. Just look at history. Did it really matter WHAT Jews did? A reason was always ‘found’ to explain vile hatred of Jews! The war in Gaza is a convenient reason for some people to ‘let it out’. If it wasn’t Gaza, it would be something else. There are horrific and long-lasting ongoing atrocities in the world that these people don’t say anything about! But when it comes to Israel and/or Jews, it’s an entirely different story. They are seething with hate, anger and disdain. You say the cartoon is anti-Israel, not anti-semitic. If it’s Israel they are against, then why is it making it hard “for the rest of us Jews”? You can see here that Israel=Jew. You should re-think and see where the immorality lies.
Who are YOU to say that Israel is a country that should never have been?! This land was given to the Jews by the Creator to be theirs forever. Jews have been living there for a few thousand years, but throughout history different nations conquered the land. In 1948 it became their homeland again, they got it back. When attacked by terrorists with thousands of rockets being fired daily for the past 8 years, targeting Israeli civilians, and having tried to negotiate and warn them to stop, Israel finally responded. Wouldn’t any country to the same?! In fact, other countries would have done much more and much sooner! The IDF for the most part tried as best they could to avoid civilian casualties, and sent down pamphlets, made thousands of phonecalls to warn the people of an impending strike in order to let them get out of harm’s way. The Palestinian militants, on the other hand, told their people, including women and children, to serve as human shields for them - you can see their leaders praising them for this on the internet. They also stored and fired ammunition from within and/or very close to Palestinian civilian compounds and residential buildings so as to increase Palestinian casualties. All this, so that Israel would be blamed for killing so many civilians. This is the enemy that Israel is up against. They can send in rockets, blow up Israelis on buses, in restaurants, in hotels, etc., but you say that it was wrong for Israel to go into Gaza in order to weaken the Hamas criminals?? Something is very wrong in your reasoning. We all want to live in peace, but if someone is coming after you without a stop, what would you do? The terrorists don’t care about negotiations, warnings, etc.
A way to help stop anti-semitism is to live the way one should as a Jew. That means keeping the Shabbat, eating kosher, etc. In the Torah, G-d says that if Jews keep His laws, then things will be well for them.

Comment by Tara on 3/27/09 at 9:09 am

Jay-
He’s from Australia, not Austria…

Comment by Michael on 3/27/09 at 11:20 am

It’s also “right on” and the Truth does hurt, especially if your country continues to use the “victim” angle in any conflict that presents itself. It’s very sad that a country like Israel, that consistently presents itself as “morally superior”..will never really progress until it is able to look at itself in the mirror..and exorcise its on demons!

Comment by Johnny Montez on 3/27/09 at 12:43 pm

I second Johnny M’s comment. Oliphant’s image is not isolated but represents an image that Israel has made for itself in the eyes of much of the world and which Israel rightly deserves for its continued occupation of Palestinian land and its bloody wars, first against Lebanon in 1982, whose occupation produced the resistance movement,Hezbollah, then again in 2006 and now again against Gaza which it has blockaded since 2007 following 40 years of formal occupation. Moreover, Oliphants’ use of the Magen David is appropriate since Israel, defiled Judaism’s most sacred symbol when it decided to put it on its war planes and tanks, making it a legitimate subject for a cartoon’s imagination. Conrad at the LA Times made use of it during the first intifada when he draped it with barbed wire. As for Tara, I should remind her that the Creator she cites was actually a creation of the early Jews who then, acting on his orders, carried out genocides against whoever opposed them. I’m not making that up. It’s all in the Old Testament (the Torah) and it is that mentality that seems to be informing not only the government of Israel but what passes for thinking by its most ardent supporters in the US and around the world. “God made me do it,” doesn’t work any more and it is not a recipe for a just and peaceful future for anyone in the region.

Comment by Hollywood Jeff on 3/27/09 at 3:43 pm

And I second both Johnny M’s and Hollywood Jeff’s comments.
As long as Israel continues to oppress the Palestinians, to steal their land for settlements that under international law are illegal, to bulldoze their homes (thousands since 1967), to make life as miserable as possible for those whose land they stole back in 1948 and again in 1967, there will be those who say to Israel that your actions are condemnable.
If Jews are upset with the use of the Star of David being used in Oliphant’s cartoon then Israel should either change its symbol or chance it policies.
As a Jew I think perhaps they should change both unless they are hoping for more anti-Semitism around the world - and maybe they are.

Comment by Janice on 3/27/09 at 5:39 pm

Oliphant is inaccurate to compare Israeli soldiers to jackbooted Nazis. German soldiers were professional and respected the humanitarian basics of the Geneva convention - the white flag of surrender and the sanctity of children. They also did not descend to the level of personal degradation shown by Israeli soldiers, delicately called House sitting with an h.

Comment by George Klausman on 3/27/09 at 9:10 pm

It’s actually very simple, kill women and children and you will be despised. Whether you’re Beijing, Khartoum or Jerusalem.

Deal with it!

Comment by PGenes on 3/28/09 at 5:26 am

Are we suppose to apologize for the mess the Europeans created during their centuries of greed and oppression, in carving up every last chunk of the world in an effort to expand their market shares? Middle Eastern politics isn’t a New England town hall meeting. I’m not excusing the actions of some IDF soldiers in Gaza, but as long as the kind of commentary persists that questions Israel right to exist (in case you’re somewhat ignorant of history, Zionism wasn’t exactly some kind of dream or right of passage, Israel was created as a refugee camp for a stateless people who had nowhere else to go) then you can expect an Israel that takes everyone at their word, and a state that expects the worst case scenario at all times- it’s a fight for survival and legitimacy when it should be a fight for an equitable solution between two honest brokers. 
I also might add that the ideological rigidity of Hamas is the only keeping it, and the citizens of Gaza, from escaping the torment of the blockade. It’s too bad that there are some people out there who would rather use their own brothers and sisters as political bait than accept any kind of meaningful step forward to alleviate their suffering. That’s the real humanitarian crisis. I’m not saying that Israelis shouldn’t shoulder a lot of the blame here, because they should, but at least an equal share in this disaster is the unrelenting pride of the Arabs and their unwillingness to accept reality.

Comment by Greg on 3/28/09 at 5:38 am

Oliphant represents the “useful idiot” liberal Western media,  broadcasting the “lethal narrative” of the violent, lawless Islamists. Depicting Hamas (Gaza) as a tiny mother and child, running toward a cliff pursued by a headless (mindless?) Israel, repeats and amplifies an inverted distortion of Israel’s masochistic restraint in the face of ongoing missles, mortars, kidnappings and terror.

  In Hebrew, the word “Hamas” means violence and lawlessness! It is a sign of Divine humor and Providential stage setting in the fulfillment of prophesy, that the Arabic acronym for the Islamic Liberation Front,Hamas, translates into the best description of the character of these ideological descendants of their Torah patriarchs, Ishmael and Esau.

  Oliphant’s cartoon shows nothing of the armed male members of Hamas being justly pursued by the IDF. That is because the Hamas militiamen were in a bunker under the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, or hiding amidst the women and children, in weaponized mosques or sniping from schools rigged to explode while the militiamen slipped away through tunnels, while civilian residents were left to be unwilling “witnesses” for the Hamas cause.

  This is where a complicent media, such as the NY Times is essential, to beat the false drum of Israel’s
intentionally harming civilians. The New York Times rewards Hamas with the propoganda victory, which will encourage a guaranteed repeat performance, in which Islamist militants create, photograph and even stage collateral damage in order to defeat Israel on the world stage. I call this “The Theatre of Suffering”, which perpetuates the anti-Israel Arab narrative

  How is it that Israel is always at the top or even alone on the world’s “nation-we-love-to-hate” list? Worse, how is it that the New York Times (formerly known as the JewYork Times) has fallen so far as to promulgate this clearly antisemitic narrative?

  The answer lies deep within the rebellion of Satan against the sovereignty of the Creator. Satan believes that he can capture the throne of God if he can prove that God’s promises to Abram are a lie. This is because God’s covenant with Abram was sworn by God unilaterally and unconditionally upon Himself!  If Israel is compromised and the Jews cast out of covenant land, Satan wins a tactical victory. If the Jews can be totally wiped out then Satan fulfills his conditons from a strategic victory. This is because if there are no Jews left to receive the promises of God, then the promises are void and the devil can legally claim his prize, the sovereign right to rule over all creation!

  So why would a Jewish owned paper in a city known by black racist,  anti-semitic detractors as “Hymie Town” literally serve the devil’s purposes against the Jewish people? The answer lies deep in the liberal Jewish psyche. According to Rabbi Daniel Lapin* (whose views on this matter I share), The liberal Jew is liberal in his rebellion or flight from God. Let’s face it, it is humanly impossible to please God by following 613 laws, or even just the 10 commandments. Our human nature will cause us to fail. All have fallen short of God’s standard and even the noblest of works are as Isaiah says, as filthy (the PG translation of menstral) rags. The liberated (liberal) Jew has decided that it is better to flee or rebel against such a heavy yoke, and to worship humanistic idols instead.

  The Jewish soul alienated from God is achingly dangerous, both to the person and even to the world. The person’s God vacuum is filled with false ideologies including Marxism, secular-humanism, or silly efforts at self justification. We always find Jewish people in leadership of liberal causes out of proportion to demographic. Often, the badge of liberal Jews is their self denigration or a denigration of the Jewish Homeland, Israel, favoring sympathy for the devil and his human proxy Hamas!

*
“America’s True War”,Audio Cassette 1999.

Comment by Elliott on 3/28/09 at 6:09 am

George, you have got to be fucking kidding me. It’s time to stop whacking off to your framed portrait of the fuhrer. And I think 185 America soldiers that were mowed down at Malmedy might agree with me.
Janice:
        Same point. Don’t worry your little head over things. The men and women of the IDF who risk their lives. Just crazed murderers right. I absolve you. Your better than the rest of us who care about Jewish survival, more nobel, deeper. So when you go to your left wing crap you can say don’t blame me. I’m not part of that greasy hook nosed bunch over there. I’m like you.

Comment by Bill Pearlman on 3/28/09 at 6:44 am

It’s curious that Pearlman has nothing to say about the religious, Old Testament crap that preceded his comment and shows the writer, Elliot, in sore need of a new shrink.
As for Pearlman’s beloved “IDF,” I have seen them in action as occupiers in Lebanon as well as in the West Bank and Gaza and there is nothing noble or endearing about them (or any other occupying army) except that what is better called, the Israeli Occupation Forces, tend to me more sadistic and disrespectful of the people whose land they are occupying. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the Shia initially welcomed them because they were tired of having the PLO fight its battles from their soil, but when the Israelis started treating the Shia as they treat the Palestinians, shitting in mosques, drawing the same ugly graffiti that we have seen in Gaza, on their walls, and using the same humiliating tactics that the Palestinians had and still experience, they wised up and formed Hezbollah which proceeded to kick the IDF’s collective tuchus and did so again in 2006. Hamas was a much,much easier target. I suspect that IDF’s sphincters quiver when they think of going back for a third time. It may be comforting that Hezbollah and Hamas are Iranian proxies, but that type of thinking simply represents the racist mindset that fails to recognize that an occupied and oppressed people are quite capable of resisting without being told to do so.

Comment by Hollywood Jeff on 3/28/09 at 9:21 am

Hollywood jeff sounds like another left wing universalist Jew by accident of birth. Did you hear me debating the morality of a war time situation. Or mention the Israeli soldiers who were taken captive be Hezbollah from sovereign Israeli territory and returned mutilated. Or the hero’s welcome to Samir( head crusher) Kuntar, no. All I’m saying is that wen it comes down to a fight between the IDF and Hamas, Hezbollah, whoever. I want the IDF to WIN. You, Ellen, and Janice want the Isla,ic psychotics to win. Own up to it.

Comment by bill Pearlman on 3/28/09 at 9:36 am

Dear Hollywood Jeff,

  Sorry, but I am a retired psychiatrist! So, perhaps it is your secular humanist soul, in rebellion against the God of your fathers, that is in need of healing and radical transformation. Shrinks, as you refer to psychiatrists and psychologists, have, unfortunately become apologists or even the High Priests for Secular Humanism. This worldview strives to convince you that you are merely a chemical accident, descended from monkeys, rather than created by a loving God in His image. Insofar as you believe this lie, you feel no obligation to your creator, who in your opinion is CHANCE. You have not taken the time to appreciate the faithfulness, truth and purposes of your Creator, to whom you have an obligation for all that you are.

  Secular humanism, which I assume to be your religion, elevates man above God, His will and his purposes. Your humanitarian goals are good, except when Humanism blinds you to the true evil embodied in the Islamist death cult, in their relentless pursuit of destroying a sovereign nation.
  I acknowledge that there are tragic inhumane aspects to martial law, occupation or even just war (as when a sovereign nation has withdrawn from Gaza, only to be fired upon from the new Hamastan). I have not heard of Jews defecating on Muslim alters, as your Palistinian heros did in the Church of the Nativity. I’d like a trustworthy source for such an accusation.

  Unfortunately, Operation Cast Lead was initiated only after months of restraint and trying all other means first, other than Israeli national suicide.

  As you have invited me to see a new shrink, I respectfully ask that you carefully reexamine your worldview. Does it satisfy your longing for understanding your origins, destiny, purpose and ethics? Even if your answer is “yes”, will it withstand the test of time, as what you have called the “crappy” Old Testament has. What sort of world to you wish to live in and leave to your children? What do you see as your eternal destiny and earthly purpose?

  The Bible has been the anvil, upon which hammers (and sickles) have crumbled throughout history! 

  You must decide this day whom you serve. Do you choose life or death?

L’ Chiam, Jeff! I hope you will choose life!

Comment by Elliott on 3/28/09 at 10:12 am

As a former Middle East news correspondent, I am fascinated by how propaganda and manipulation on the side of the Palestinians is accepted by a gullible public (among them ignorant Jews who have forgotten history) and even so-called intellectuals who should know better.  As far as the media is concerned, the reporting of “facts” from Palestinian eyewitnesses and sources never ceases to amaze me. When the real facts are learned in time they rarely appear to be as they were initially and sensationally headlined. The Palestinians, unfortunately, have been represented by leaders whose agenda largely was, and still is, the destruction of Israel and whose children are taught in schools that Jews are pigs and apes.  The Palestinian leadership strategy is to antagonize and harass Israel, kill innocents, and evoke a military response from Israel while hiding in mosques, schools, and hospitals, and behind women and children. Critics say it’s a brutal occupation.  But how many times has Israel offered to give up land for peace and security?  From 1967 to the present, the offers have usually been rejected. Anwar Sadat got back the Sinai for Egypt when he signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1977.  But he was assassinated for doing so.  When Israel withdrew from Lebanon and Gaza you would have thought that a door for potential peace had been opened.  Not so.  The withdrawal was followed by attacks and rockets.  Does any Palestinian leader have the courage to make peace with Israel?  I can’t imagine one.  He is a dead man if he does.  There has been a war going on in the Holy Land for more than 60 years, and many of Israel’s critics, and many Jews as well, have forgotten this basic fact of Middle East reality.  When the Palestinians and Arabs really want peace, instead of the destruction of Israel and the convenience of having Israel as a handy, time-tested whipping boy to cover up for their eternal corruption and suppression of human rights, then maybe we will see peace instead of suicide attacks, launching rockets at civilian populations, and teaching hatred to their children, and blaming Israel for everything.  In the process we can hope that the Palestinians will finally stop being victims of their own actions and begin to exercise the untapped potential for excellence and success that they naturally possess.  Only, and this is a big if, if Iran and the Arab states, and their own leaders, let them.  What a glorious vision for the Middle East and the world when that happens! Israel has made mistakes and for sure is far from perfect.  But the Israeli people want peace and must defend themselves vigorously until it happens.  If it does.  Then the left and the media can maybe focus on China’s repression of Tibet and Sudan’s murderous actions in Dafur and the suppression of women throughout the Muslim world.

Comment by canogamarty on 3/28/09 at 10:54 am

Canogamarty, well stated!

The history of Arab antisemitism (anti Jewish) goes back even before Israeli statehood in 1948. The history of British promises (the Balfor Declaration of 1917) eroded until under Arab pressure, the White Paper of 1939, condemned Europe’s Jews to a Hitler dominated kill zone.

  During WWII, the British installed, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Yassir Arafat’s uncle Amin al Husseini met with Hitler in order to plan a bicontinental final solution for the Jews of Europe and North Africa! Fortuately, the Afrika Corp was undersupplied at El Alamein due to Hitler’s blunder of attacking Russia. Haj Amin al Husseini formed two Islamist Waffen SS divisions among Muslims in Bosnia to assist in the war effort.

  I view the world’s acceptance of the Arab narrative as supernatural, along the lines of Hitler’s influence over the German people. The world (cosmos) simply loves to hate Israel and the Jewish People. I believe it goes beyond envy of Jewish success or animosity over any imagined failures of Jewish national character.

  We are in a period of prophetic acceleration, with events on the horizon that will be simply breathtaking!

Comment by Elliott on 3/28/09 at 8:36 pm

To PGenes, I guess you must despise the terrorists and suicide-homicide bombers that have been TARGETING and killing Israeli civilians including children for years and years. They also made their own women and children go to combat areas so they would be killed in the line of fire. That makes them double despised. Oh, and their ultimate goal is to wage jihad against all infidels, i.e. kill anyone who is non-muslim. Triple despised! Their brethren killed thousands in the bombing of the world trade center, and the list goes on and on. They must be VERY VERY DESPISED!!

Comment by Bonnie on 3/28/09 at 8:42 pm

Hollywood Jeff: Nobody’s saying “G-d made me do it”. Just responding to and informing Ellen who says Israel is a country that should never have been. G-d gave the land to the Jews. But that has nothing to do with the war in Gaza. Israel was aiming to stop Hamas from continually firing rockets into Israel with the intent on killing civilians. If someone was firing at your house again and again and wouldn’t heed warnings to stop, what would you do? Your responsibility would be to protect them. I feel sorry for your family if you did nothing.

You think the Torah is manmade? The Torah says that Ishmael’s descendants would behave with hostility in the world. How do you explain that men from way back could foretell of such a prophesy. If you would allow yourself to learn Torah with a Torah scholar, you would increase your understanding of alot of things.

Canogamarty and Elliott, very good factual statements made. I think, Elliott, you’re right on about being in prophetic times!

Comment by Tara on 3/28/09 at 9:47 pm

Are you kidding me. The cartoon was extremely antisemitic.

Comment by Brian Macker on 3/29/09 at 5:38 am

Have you ever read—actually read all of it—the Hamas Charter.  Here it is:

    <http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm>

    <http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html>

Do they mean what they say?  Are Americans sincere about the Constitution?  This is not just an essay, it is a statement of the fundamental principles of Hamas.  These principles are non-negotiable.

Now imagine that you are in the Israeli government, and you need to do something to protect your citizens against rocket attacks and suicide bombs that are killing civilians (including children), causing parents to keep their children home from school, and otherwise disrupting life in your country.  The people on the other side (the Hamas government and the people who voted for them) not only don’t accept your country’s right to exist, but consider it their sacred duty to wipe you out.  They don’t negotiate in good faith, they don’t honor cease-fire agreements that they are a party to, and they don’t stop the bombing.

Your move.

Comment by Matthew Lybanon on 3/29/09 at 7:26 am

How do we know that “God” gave the land of Israel to the Jews? That is because, according to many, the BIble and Torah say it is so. But how do we know that it was “God” that did this? That is because those who wrote the Bible and Torah said it was so.
All of this happened, if it did happen, many thousands of years ago and yet people say that they know what “God” wanted. Very strange.
And why is it that in the thousands of years that have passed since the supposed word of “God” came down that we hear no more from the deity that so many worship? Where are new chapters for the Bible or for the Torah?
There are many of us out there who believe that Torah and the Bible are not the word of God but the words of those who want to justify whatever they want.

As for Hamas not recognizing Israel or sending rockets into Israel one must remember that in 1988 the PLO recognized Israel and a two-state solution. Israel did not recognize a two-state solution and its response to the PLO was continuing building of settlements. In 1988 Hamas was a small organization even backed by Israel as a counterweight to the secular PLO. When the corrupt PLO showed that it could not deliver freedom to the Palestinians and as the newly minted Palestinian Authority was charged by Israel to protect Israelis, Hamas came into greater prominence. If Israel doesn’t like Hamas they should have thought well before embarking on what has turned out to be an almost 42 year brutal occupation.
People will rebel and resist against occupation and unless and until Israel clears out of the territories and compensates those who were driven out in 1948 and 1967 there will be no peace. The ball is in Israel’s court.

Comment by Janice on 3/29/09 at 11:42 am

It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks god may have wanted when the bible was manufactured. It doesn’t matter what the events were that led to the current situation. The only tenable outcome, if you are in the least bit humanitarian, is for a peaceful agreement to ensue. The alternative is absolute destruction of either Israel or the Arab states (the former being a rather more likely scenario). Most people don’t want that. For peace to occur, the Arabs MUST STOP BOMBING ISRAEL. This is like, duh, obvious. HELLO. Israel is perfectly willing to give up land, cease hostilities, etc, etc, as it has made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR on numerous occasions, even to the point of doing this unilaterally in some instances. Sure, Israel has committed some atrocities, but they are overwhelmingly overshadowed by the horrific atrocities of their neighbors—on their own people even more so even then on Israelis!

But the bottom line, for God’s sake, is so stupidly obvious. How can a country of any religion or ethnicity make peace with neighbors who are raining down rockets on them? Come on all you Palestine sympathizers! It’s ok to sympathize with Palesstine, they deserve peace, but—- come on! They need to STOP SENDING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL! How many times does it need to be said? Why can’t people get this simple, obvious fact?

Nothing else matters. If that can’t stop, there will be no peace. Period. Ever.

Comment by sir on 3/29/09 at 12:31 pm

Janice, you’re wondering how we know the Torah is given by G-d. I can suggest one site you can google to: “How do we know that we heard G-d at Sinai?” Perhaps this will help you to think about it with a tiny bit more food for thought. You say we “hear no more from the Deity”. The truth is G-d is still speaking to us, all the time, through the words of His Torah. Nothing is “added” now because the Torah is complete and eternal. The Torah is a tree of life. G-d gave us free will. G-d tells us to choose life.

I’ve come across a piece of information that says the Arab states said some time ago that the purpose of the Palestinian refugees is to bring about the destruction of Israel. If that’s the case, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns. As you can see, this is a great danger for Israel. Israel is totally surrounded by enemies who want to wipe Israel off the map, and who have repeatedly tried. If Israel were to give up more land now, it would not bring peace. Easy to see. It’s a matter of survival.

Comment by Tara on 3/29/09 at 1:51 pm

Janice: I’d like to ask you a question.  You said the following in your post:
“People will rebel and resist against occupation and unless and until Israel clears out of the territories and compensates those who were driven out in 1948 and 1967 there will be no peace. The ball is in Israel’s court.”
What do you think the Palestinians would do if Israel vacated every inch of territory that was captured during the 1967 war?
Do you really think the Palestinians would make peace with Israel then?
Both the Hamas and PLO charters call for the elimination of Israel—all of it.  Not just the territory captured in 1967.  You either believe these documents or you don’t.  What do you believe?

Comment by canogamarty on 3/29/09 at 4:12 pm

Another question: Why did the Arab countries attack Israel in ‘67 when Israel was NOT ‘occupying’ the land they claim Israel ‘occupies’ now? You know there will never be an end to their demands from Israel. They plainly say themselves they want an end to Israel. THEY are the ‘big bully’, NOT Israel. Oliphant got it wrong, very wrong!

Comment by Bonnie on 3/29/09 at 6:37 pm

Sad comments above my superstitious fellow Jews who believe in the God stuff. There aint no God, bubbs. We are all just humans, all of us, and there is no such thing as race or religion. Pure human constrcuts. Israel is a pox on the house of the Jews. Sad to say. It never should have been placed there. Alaska would have been better. You are all sick here, except for us open minded Jews. You are the guys who caused all this mess. Wake up.

Comment by ELLEN Jadens on 3/29/09 at 6:54 pm

Ellen, too bad. You’re making a statement about G-d without knowing anything about this. One day you’re going to be very surprised! I wish you well.

Comment by Tara on 3/29/09 at 7:30 pm

Israel is our land, period!! Ellen, even if you don’t believe in G-d, you have to admit that this land belongs to the Jews, who were there before long before the Arabs. Jews have been there for thousands of years with a rich and vibrant history. This is their country. Every people has a country, this concept should not be new to you! Now really, think about this. Your thinking has been very twisted. Don’t be bent over. The non-Jews will respect you even less. Every nation’s peoples would defend their right to their country, why not you?!! Don’t be afraid to stand up.
Furthermore, Israel gave up Gaza for the promise of a lasting peace. Instead, what Israel got in return has been rockets targeting civilians, including children in their schools. Palestinian militants started the war YEARS ago and Israel is obligated to protect its people.
In 1948 the British formed the state of Israel for the Jewish people, it’s legal. Time and time again the Arab nations tried to eradicate Israel and are still trying. They attacked Israel in 1967 when Israel was NOT so-called occupying the land they say Israel is now so-called occupying. Even before the state of Israel was formed, Arabs had attacked Jews. So, you see, it’s not so much about the land per se. Jews have been attacked and vilified in different parts of the world over the centuries and it wasn’t because of land. There’s a lot for you to rethink. Israel did not steal anyone’s land!!! I understand you’re afraid of the bullies. But standing up to bullies and defending your rights as a fellow human being would serve you better in the long run. If you run with your tail between your legs, it would just embolden the bully even more, the opposite of what you, Ellen, are thinking it would do!!!  YOU should wake up and see truth!!!

Comment by Bonnie on 3/29/09 at 9:35 pm

Except that while the Star of David may be the religious sign of Jews, it is also the patriotic symbol of Israel (ie their flag). If the cartoon had been aimed against America it would have had the American Flag or Uncle Sam somewhere in there. The point of this cartoon is to speak out against what Israel is doing to the Palestinians (murdering and imprisoning them).

It’s just that to say anything against Israel you are labeled an anti-semitic person. I think the artist was using the Star of David to represent Israel, not the Jewish religion. But everyone just assumes it’s the religion. That’s because if they keep people afraid to say anything in fear of being labeled a jew-hater, then their expansionist murdering policies won’t be questioned.

Quite frankly, I view the actions of Israel as eerily similar to the actions of Hitler’s Germany. Israel invades their neighbors and takes their land. Lebensraum, anyone? Israel then, when finally leaving Lebanon, leaves the southern part of a sovereign nation littered with land mines to “protect” Israel. I’m sorry, if Canada decided it didn’t like us, the US wouldn’t allow Canada to leave landmines in the northern states to “protect” Canada.

Israel is a fanatical terrorist nation hiding behind the concept of democracy. The only reason the US even supports Israel is because of it’s so called democracy. Israel to the US is nothing but a foothold in the US. Because we don’t want to lose that foothold we let Israel get away with bombing Gaza, going back on agreements, etc.

And yes, Israeli soldiers DO murder innocent Palestinians. And because they represent Israeli government, the Israeli government can be held responsible.

Comment by Kiru on 3/30/09 at 8:50 am

baruch hashem we can disregard your comments since it is obvious you have not received an education beyond the 5th grade and you have obviously have not visited israel. these old and tired cliches and comparisons to nazi germany were in vogue 20 years ago and thankfully never held any academic weight. i would say they were reserved for pundits and the like but i guess you are an informed middle-american cliche yourself. by the time dorothy leaves kansas i can expect a more nuanced response to the biggest predicament in global politics today.

Comment by Avraham Leibowitz on 3/30/09 at 9:03 am

NETANYAHU STEP ASIDE….........I VOTE BILL PEARLMAN FOR ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER

Comment by Josh Arad on 3/30/09 at 11:09 am

It seems that no nation, group or individual can ever be brought to justice in relation to what’s happened in Gaza and so many other places.

Whatever Israel has done there cannot be isolated from what others have also done. Hamas, Fatah, USA, UK, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Germany, Western Christendom, Islamic and Zionist extremism, all these bear some degree of responsibility for what has transpired. And therein lies the problem. Where do you stop and who do you blame? Ultimately, you might have to go all the way back to the Pharaohs to net anything close to the full tally of culprits.

The only OTHER way to effectively handle this conflict is to dismiss any pretence of obtaining a perfect solution and focus much more closely on the here and now, specifically isolating it from all that has gone before. This would then remove the burden of so much ‘history’ in this region; a very necessary arrangement if any resolution of the matter is to be found.

In other words, we have to make the present situation work for us rather than against us. The past we will have to leave for another time, another place.

http://yorketowers.blogspot.com

Carpe diem. Otherwise, this ends very badly.

But I’m sure you all know that anyway.

Comment by John Yorke on 3/30/09 at 1:39 pm

Kiru,I don’t take any sides, but it’s so obvious that you know nothing of what you speak. You need some history lessons, and a lot more!

Comment by Brett on 3/30/09 at 2:36 pm

Izrael elected Natanyahu.Shear madness.They’l never achieve peace with him at the rudder.I am not a antisemite,but i think Izrael shoold change it’s attitude. The Arabs too.

Comment by gus on 3/30/09 at 3:46 pm

To Kiru, Glad to hear you say it isn’t antisemitic. Now Ellen doesn’t have to worry. She felt antisemtism is on the rise because of what Israel did. Whew!
You, however, got it all mixed up and reversed who the terrorists are. You really meant the Hamas militants, not Israel, whose actions are similar to the Nazis. For example, Hamas urged their women and children to go to combat areas to serve as human shields and thus be killed in doing so. Hamas FORCED young Arab boys to congregate in very dangerous places so they would be killed in the line of fire. Hamas forced their way into Arab civilian homes in order to fire at the IDF, thus inviting the home to be fired at in return, probably causing the death of the inhabitants therein. Hamas placed explosives in schools, mosques, a zoo, and other areas for the purpose of incurring as many deaths of their people as possible and as much destruction as possible. Hamas fired from very densely populated areas, intentionally making their battleground in the midst of their civilians. Add to all this the fact that they have been sending rockets into Israel TARGETING the civlians, including children in schools for the past number of years. About 8000 rockets!! Over the years they have sent suicide-homicide bombers to murder Israeli civilians on buses, in schools, restaurants, hotels, etc. The Hamas militants are coldblooded murderers over and over again.
I suggest you speak to the son of one of the Hamas leaders who recently defected because of the absolute atrocities constantly perpetrated by Hamas. He can tell you firsthand much, much more! I suggest you also speak to an Arab woman, Brigitte Gabriel, who will also tell you of atrocities firsthand. At the same time, she’ll tell you about her love for Israel and Israelis because of her experiences there firsthand.
There’s a lot more. You have a lot to learn.

Comment by S.J.K. on 3/30/09 at 7:31 pm

Hey Kiru! What say about the muslim bombings of the twin towers, killing thousands of people, unprovoked. What say of muslims murdering people all the time in their countries by suicide bombers. What say of their decades-long goal to wipe Israel off map, and their goal to kill all infidels - that means everyone who isn’t muslim. Uh huh. They teach their children that christians and jews are pigs and apes.

Comment by Hula H. on 3/30/09 at 8:41 pm

To all of the self hating Jews who have been saying give the palestinians back the land taken from them and there will be peace, how about this.  Remove the palestinians from Gaza and send them to Iraq, Egypt, Libya et al.  There are plenty of Jewish owned properties they could have as the Jews were either driven out or murdered in the 1940’s.  How many Jews are there in Iraq where until 1948 there had been a thriving population of 150,000.  Now there are less than 10.  Morocco had 265,000 now less than 6,000.  Why is no one crying out for repayment and return for them.  Because Israel took them in, sheltered them and helped them to start over.  The Arab states with the vast wealth they have have never helped the palestinians and likely never will.  They just don’t care about them except as a propaganda tool.

Comment by Fred B on 3/31/09 at 9:50 am

VERY SUCCINCTLY STATED, FRED! TRUTH WELL SPOKEN!

Comment by some readers on 3/31/09 at 10:49 am

Israeli flag symbolizes Israel, but the Star of David does symbolize the Jewish people. What oliphant did in his cartoon is vilify JEWS.

Comment by Brett on 4/01/09 at 7:54 am

Fred, Had the Palestinians not been driven out from their homes in Palestine or had they been allowed to return as UN Res. 194 demanded, the Jews of Arab countries could well still be in their homes. It was not until the Palestinians were expelled that the Arab countries told the Jews to go. I don’t think that it was right for the Jews to be expelled but neither do I think it was right for the Palestinians to be forced out. But I guess, Fred, that without the deliberate expulsion of the Palestinians there couldn’t be a Jewish state so you probably are not terribly upset that the Palestinians who had lived in Palestine for countless decades had to leave so that Europeans could take their lands and homes.
Israel wanted those Jews from Arab lands so don’t make it sound as if Israel was so generous by taking them in. There is actually evidence that Israel wanted the Jews of Arab countries and, especially in Iraq, fomented anti-Semitic acts to frighten Jews into leaving.
As for the Arab countries not helping Palestinians, many Palestinians are living throughout the Arab world. And why should it be the responsibility of Arab countries when Israel was the cause of the problem? How many Jews did the Western world take in?

Brett, Israel says that it represents the Jewish people of the world. If that is so then Israel’s actions reflect on all Jews. Fortunately there are many Jews who do not want Israel to represent us. Many of us believe that it is Israeli’s sadistic actions that vilify Jews.

Comment by Janice on 4/01/09 at 9:57 am

Janice: Take any country, France for example. France represents the French people. If the government of France acts in a certain way, are their actions considered representative of all French people? Usually thinking people would say NO! The same with other countries in the world…EXCEPT FOR ISRAEL AND THE JEWS!!!! Isn’t that interesting? Does that tell you something? It’s not the JEWS fault that this happens! Whose fault is it? Something for you to think more deeply about!!! It’s been happening throughout history, by the way, and it didn’t matter if the Jews did something or didn’t do something! Jews are scrutinized with a magifying glass, where atrocities perpetrated by other countries are given a more superficial thought for the most part, and their PEOPLE are not vilified. The government of those countries may be criticized, but it doesn’t cause HATRED OF THEIR PEOPLE. So you see Jews are looked at very differently, but this didn’t just begin with the war in Gaza. By the way, the war in Gaza was begun by Palestinian militants, who have been TARGETING Israeli civilians, including children in schools for the past EIGHT YEARS. Is that a way to negotiate peace? They teach their children, beginning at preschool age, that Jews are evil and are apes and pigs, and it would be the highest honor for them to grow up and kill Jews. This can be found right on the internet. Barbaric and evil behavior. The militants caused many more of their people to be killed because they instructed them to be human shields, and FORCED young Gazan boys to stay in certain very dangerous areas, and also made their battleground right in the midst of their civilians. They forced their way into some of their people’s homes,in order to fire from there, in order to increase their civilian casualties. The placed explosives in schools, a zoo, and in or near other residential buildings. All this, so as to cause more deaths of their own people and more destruction. You can find it all on the internet.

Comment by S.J.K. on 4/01/09 at 11:09 am

S.J.K. - So you must have been on the ground when Israel was pounding Gaza so that you personally witnessed Hamas using Palestinians to be human shields. Have you, at the least, photos to show this?  Do you have photos or other evidence of young Gazan boys being forced to stay in dangerous areas? There are photos, however, of IDF soldiers tying Palestinian kids onto the hood of their jeeps so that the kids become human shields. There is plenty of evidence of Israeli soldiers
forcing Palestinians to walk ahead of them as human shields as they enter Palestinian homes. You can find it all on the internet.
I don’t know where the evidence is that Hamas fighters forced their way into people’s homes but there is plenty of evidence that this is standard operating procedure for the IDF both in Gaza and the West Bank. Not only does the IDF take over the house but often smash up everything in side, shoot out the windows and leave trash and feces around. This, S.J.K. is well documented.
Now also tell me why, if Hamas did all this why only 10 Israeli soldiers were killed with 4 of them dying from “friendly fire.”

BTW, you can find all the evidence of this on the internet.

Now here is a story for you. Many diaspora Jews, including progressive and non-racist Israeli Jews, have gone to Palestine to help the Palestinians. These Jews have acted to protect Palestinians from the IDF and from the settlers. These Jews have been welcomed as friends and not as occupiers. As a good friend of mine who spent a month in Nablus with her son told me, “We had more to fear from the IDF than we did from the Palestinians.” She and her son were guests in Palestinian homes and informed all present that they were Jewish. They were welcomed and told that as long as they came as friends they were welcome. There were hugs all around.
But my friend’s son and another young Jewish volunteer was picked up by the IDF and taken to a settlement where he was held outdoors for 48 hours given only a little bit of water. Their cameras and cell phones were stolen from him by the IDF and when they were freed they were taken in the middle of the night and dumped in the middle of nowhere where they had to find their way back to Nablus.

Comment by Janice on 4/01/09 at 2:10 pm

We know about Hamas forcing their way into Palestinian homes because one Palestinian man was brave enough to report it. It was in the news several weeks ago. He said when they forced themselves into his home, he pleaded with them not to use his house as a combat zone because he has little children. What they did to him and one of his children was beat them up and shoot one of them in the legs. They did use his house, but somehow he was very lucky and managed to escape. He was very angry at Hamas for this. On the internet you can find video clips of Hamas forcing young Arab boys into dangerous situations. WE SAW THIS EVEN THOUGH WE WEREN’T
THERE!!! We saw video clpis of Hamas leaders praising their women and children for acting as human shields. WE SAW THIS EVEN THOUGH WE WEREN’T THERE!!! A Palestinian woman wrote a comment in another blog that she now lives in the U.S. and is so greatful to be here because of what her “leaders” have done to her and her people. She herself said they do horrible things to their own people. Another report is from a son of a prominent Hamas leader who defected from Gaza and now lives in the U.S. who says of the Hamas terrorists that “they are sick” and brutal and torture even one another many times because of mistrust. You can access all this on the internet. Hundreds of Israeli civilians have been blown to bits over the years purposely targeted time and time and time again. A few years ago it was reported that Arab militants stormed into an Israeli home and when a 5 year old girl was hiding, they searched her out until they found her hiding under a bed, then KILLED this girl in cold blood. I checked out some internet sites of an Arab woman that was suggested, her name is Brigitte Gabriel. Check her out. Her story is not about visiting for a short while. Hers is a story about living a hell in her country, and about her finding compassion in Israel with Israeli for the first time in her life! We’ve also seen an Arab woman on the internet, too bad we can’t remember her name, who spoke against what atrocities her people have done and are doing, and it was surprising to hear how she was praising Jews for what they are!
That’s of course not to say that Israel or the IDF or Jews are perfect or never do wrong, which of course we don’t want to happen. They should behave morally and justly, and am not at all happy to hear if they do something wrong. The countless atrocities that have been perpetrated against Israelis by Hamas FAR, FAR outweigh the other side. It’s not a “competition”, but we suggest you look wider and deeper. And as long as the Arabs teach their children to hate and kill JEWS and GLORIFY the killing of Jews, there cannot be peace.
It’s the very antithesis of peace. You can check on the internet an Arab teacher speaking with one of her 3- year-old students. This 3-year-old has already been indoctrinated and says that Jews are evil and are apes and dogs, and it goes on and on. We saw a picture on the internet of a 2-year-old wearing a suicide belt. Also on the internet were video clips of the IDF finding explosives under a baby’s crib, in a school, in a zoo, ammunition in a mosque in the Gaza war. I agree that Palestinian civilians should not be killed - so you should be speaking to Hamas militants who caused so many to be killed. Check the internet-you’ll find it there if you look for it-Hamas leaders praising their women and children for giving up their lives as human shields. Plus they brought the battlefield to their civilians, increasing the number of deaths. If you are sincerely concerned that this practice isn’t repeated, you really should speak to Hamas and address this with them. I hope you can get through to them. For the sake of their people. At the same time, tell them to stop targeting Israeli civilians including children, with their rockets and suicide bombs and that it would be to their benefit to stop indoctrinating their children with hatred and desire to kill as many Jews as they can when they grow up. At the same time, if you are good with diplomatic relations, try to speak to the rest of the Arab world to change their goal of annihilating Israel and Jews. We have seen photos of Arabs in demonstrations in some parts of the world saying that they want the “real holocaust” and “open the ovens again”.

Comment by S.J.K. on 4/01/09 at 4:22 pm

SJK, I am not a supporter of Hamas and I wish that it did not exist. That said, for the first 20 years of the occupation there was no Hamas that was anything more than an Islamic charitable organization. In fact, Israel in the early 1980s supported Hamas as a counterweight to the secular and corrupt PLO.
In 1988 the PLO recognized Israel and a two-state solution but it got them nowhere. Israel continued the brutality of the occupation and the building of settlements. When Palestinians saw that recognizing Israel was going to get them nowhere they became more militant.
So, if you are upset with Hamas blame Israel for continuing on with the theft of Palestinian land and the occupation,  the longest in history.
I also don’t like the indoctrination of children no matter who they may be. But how would you explain the fact that my friend’s Israeli grandchild, a five year old, told him that the Arabs were dirty and all should be killed. Where did he learn that?
The thing is that the situation can keep on as it is and only get worse for everyone or there can be a resolution that won’t satisfy everyone but might lead to peace. Only if the Palestinians have justice will there be peace. And that justice can only come about if Israel vacates ALL of the occupied territories, returns to the 1967 border, compensates those Palestinians who were made refugees in 1948 and 1967 and allows a multinational peace keeping force to be on the border for as many years as it takes for the two people to learn to live in peace and as neighbors. Of course, that means that Israel would have to give up the water aquifers of the West Bank and I’m afraid that don’t want to do that.
By the way, I have no way of getting through to Hamas but I can speak to my fellow Jews who bear a good part of the responsibility for this dreadful situation. And maybe you can get through to the IDF and let them know that their tactics do more to create anti-Jewish feelings than all the Hamas instructors could possibly do.

Comment by Janice on 4/01/09 at 5:39 pm

Contrary to your claim that the PLO recognized Israel in 1988, the fact is, after a hard time, Arafat finally “grudgingly recognized Israel and renounced terrorism”, YET THE INFLAMED RHETORIC AND VIOLENT ACTIVITIES OF THE PLO CONTINUED WHILE ARAFAT TALKED PEACE. THE PLO’S CAMPAIGN OF TERROR CONTINUED ON, AIMED AT INNOCENT CIVILIANS. HIS PRONOUNCEMENTS WERE JUST THAT - WORDS. THEIR ACTIONS DIDN’T MATCH THE WORDS! Sound familiar?
DURING THE SUMMER OF 2000 AT CAMP DAVID Y.ARAFAT WAS OFFERED BY ISRAELI PM BARAK 98% OF THE ‘OCCUPIED TERRITORIES’ AND A FIRST TIME EVER PALESTINIAN STATE (There never ever was such a thing as a Palestinian state in the history of the world!) WITH ITS CAPITAL IN EAST JERUSALEM. ARAFAT REJECTED THE OFFER AND INITIATED THREE YEARS OF HORRIFIC BLOODSHED IN ISRAEL. In 1967 FIVE Arab countries declared war on Israel, when Israel did not have these ‘occupied territories’. Their goal was to “annihilate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea”.

What you are asking now is for Israel to give up land that they got back in a war that was waged against them in order to literally wipe them off the face of the earth. Add to that the sobering truth that there are Arab countries who want this now. The PLO and Hamas charters call for the elimination of Israel. You happen to be very naiive or else perhaps you want the end of Israel. Which is it?

By the way, the statement you made that the IDF’s “tactics do more to create anti-Jewish feelings than all the Hamas instructors could possibly do” shows colors of you that are quite suspicious. 

Will be signing off for some time - very busy now. Hope the world will be surprised with happy news in the very near future! Sayonara.

Comment by S.J.K. on 4/01/09 at 8:13 pm

It’s a great blog, Rob. I buy into the pro-stupid. But let’s do a mind exercise - what would a cartoonist need to draw in order for it to be anti-semitic in your eyes? Cos Oliphant does a pretty good job…

Comment by Robbie on 4/02/09 at 2:43 am

I agree with S.J.K. that, cognizant of all the variables, if Israel gave up land, it would be a very wrong, DANGEROUS move. What it could bring is much, much more bloodshed to both sides. Nobody (except the terrorists, and there is no shortage of them!) want that! It’s obvious that the terrorists and certain Arab nations want to COMPLETELY eradicate Israel and get rid of the Jews, step by step, no matter what Israel does. They just want Israel not to be! Ahem - they say so themselves!

Just a little note - if they hadn’t been raining (pouring) in rockets to kill Israeli innocents for all these years, there never would have BEEN the recent war in Gaza. I’m just amazed at how long it took for Israel to respond (after giving many warnings to stop the rockets). Any other country would have fought back much sooner(!) and much more furious.

Comment by Brett on 4/02/09 at 7:57 am

I think one way Janice could get through to Hamas is by submitting comments, letters to the editor of Hamas’ newspaper, or even her own city’s newspaper - the word will probably go out to Hamas. But maybe it’s not a good idea, she shouldn’t put her life on the line. Much too dangerous. They don’t accept suggestions too well.

Comment by Brett on 4/02/09 at 3:34 pm

So Brett, please tell me what the Palestinians can do to get a homeland on the 22% of their homeland from which they were driven in 1948. Do you really believe that if the Palestinians did not resist that Israel would give up the land that they illegally occupy?  I don’t.

Also tell me why it was OK for Jews to be terrorists before the establishment of the state where they targeted the British occupiers as well as Palestinian Arab civilians?
As you undoubtedly know, two former Jewish terrorists, Begin and Shamir, became prime ministers of Israel.
Why was it OK for a member of my family to ethnically cleanse Palestinian Arabs from their homes in early 1948 so that the Jewish immigrants could take over their land. The village that my relative ethnically cleansed at gunpoint (I call that terrorism) was only one of at least 500 Palestinian Arab villages destroyed by Israel.

And please don’t tell me that the Palestinians could have had their own state back in 1948. That would have lasted but a short time especially as David Ben Gurion noted that he would accept partition but that when the Jews became strong as the result of becoming a state they would expand to all the area.

Finally it was Israel that broke the truce with Hamas when on Nov. 4 they killed 6 Gazans. Also, as part of the truce Israel was supposed to lighten the siege of Gaza which kept food, medicine and the essentials of life from entering what is now the world’s largest outdoor prison, Gaza. Israel did not keep to its side of the bargain and if you check the record of previous truces, Israel has broken the lion’s share of them.

Comment by Janice on 4/02/09 at 3:46 pm

One more thing to Brett et al.
The Palestinian argument is not with the Jews because they are Jews. As occupied people anywhere, as ethnically cleansed people anywhere, many do not look kindly on those who have taken over their homelands and oppressed them. Had the occupiers of Palestine been Chinese, Indian, Swedish or whatever and acted in the same way as have the Jews, you had better believe that they would be treated no differently.

Comment by Janice on 4/02/09 at 4:20 pm

Janice, I understand your feelings of “guilt” you have because of one person in your family. To sincerely help you get a more compehensive understanding of what went on at that time google “The expulsion libel:1948 Arab “exodus” reconsidered” (in American Thinker). Read it all. To help see a little better the picture of what is transpiring today google “I am not Jewish but…” by Rupert Murdoch.
Btw,just fyi there was a strong Arab nazi connection before and during WWII, with the passionate desire to exterminate Jews. This fact must have affected what went on as you surely should be able to understand. All these years this has been their ultimate goal. Today it goes under another platform : jihad. They still call for the annihilation of Jews and are trying. This is an important issue in this whole mess, wouldn’t you agree?
You should read up more on these facts, it will help you to understand more about what went on in the past as well as what’s going on now.
SJK recommended googling Brigitte Gabriel an Arab woman (who has several sites to visit) to hear what she experienced firsthand over the years.

Comment by Brett on 4/03/09 at 7:55 am

BTW I found it very interesting to hear Brigitte Gabriel. She’s on videotape - you’ll find it.

Comment by Brett on 4/03/09 at 8:08 am

Brett, I have heard of Brigette Gabriel. Here is what one Lebanese Christian had to say about her - from Wikipedia.
“Gabriel has been accused of engaging in Islamophobia by a number of journalists including Pierre Tristam, a Lebanese Christian journalist who accuses her of making “a career out vilifying Muslims”
A 2008 interview with Ms. Gabriel in the New York Times Magazine described Ms. Gabriel as a “radical Islamophobe” in its table of contents.] She has also been criticized for making blanket statements about Muslims such as “By today’s standards, the 21st-century standards, Muslim people have less to contribute than their counterparts in civilised nations.”

I do not deny that the Mufti met with the Nazis but I will bet that had Jews not been bent on taking over Palestine that connection would not have taken place.

I suggest that you read some of the new Israeli historians who have documented how Israel came into being. I especially recommend Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and Tom Segev’s One Palestine Complete. You might also want to check out UCLA professor Saree Makdisi’s new book Palestine Inside Out An Everyday Occupation. If you dare to read Makdisi’s book you may marvel, as I did, that more Palestinians have not taken up arms against their occupiers. Neither you nor I would want to stand for the treatment that Israel has meted out to the many Palestinians who have chosen to stay on their land rather than to flee.

I don’t feel “guilty” about what my relative did. I only feel guilty for not challenging him when I heard his story. But he was not alone. Many of the Palestinians, including a Palestinian Christian friend of mine and her family,  were chased at gunpoint from their homes by people, other than my relative. He certainly was not the only ethnic cleanser among the Jews.

And yes I do know that many of the Palestinians fled in fear of the fighting, especially after the terrorist massacre by the Irgun and Stern Gang at Deir Yassin. But, as in most every other war, those who fled the fighting have been allowed to return to their homes. Only Israel has barred their return in spite of UN Res. 194 stating the all refugees willing to live in peace must be allowed to return. Israel was admitted into the UN only after agreeing to abide by this resolution. Obviously Israel lied and was never held to account.

BTW, Brett I notice that you did not answer my question as to what the Palestinians should do go get Israel out of the illegally occupied territories.

As for Ruperty Murdoch, this man is a far right wing ideologue, a strong supporter of the attack on Iraq that has left at least one million dead Iraqis, 4 million Iraqi refugees and a destroyed country. From americanprogress/org comes this remarkable statement by Murdoch.

MURDOCH THE BUSH SUPPORTER: Murdoch told Newsweek before the war, Bush “will either go down in history as a very great president or he’ll crash and burn. I’m optimistic it will be the former by a ratio of 2 to 1…One senses he is a man of great character and deep humility.” [Newsweek, 2/17/03]

Brett, neither Murdoch or Gabriel are sources I would want to quote.

Comment by Janice on 4/03/09 at 11:20 am

The Arab/Nazi connection began way before even any TALK of Jews returning to their homeland!! Sounds like you are trying to find a way to justify or “understand” why the Arabs want to ethnically cleanse and ANNIHILATE the Jews. That’s why they want to completely WIPE OUT the Jews??? Do you know what you’re saying??? Unbelievable!!! I really don’t think we have much more to dialogue - hard to understand your morality.
There are people you wouldn’t want to quote, and there are those of us who wouldn’t want to quote others. The journalist and NYT who criticize Gabriel didn’t live the experiences she did at the hand of radical muslims again and again. FIRSTHAND, not hearsay or whatever. She and thousands of others were THERE. One of Hamas top leader’s sons also “happens” to speak against Hamas et al. He’s talking right from the grass roots of what goes on. There is a Palestinian woman (now living in the U.S.) who absolutely agrees with them through personal experience. I know of a Christian Arab who says it’s the Arabs who are occupying the land, that it belongs to the Jews. There are other stories as well. One thing that very much comes across from you is unusually strong and vehement anger against the Jews. And your “understanding” or “explaining” of Muslim Arabs wanting to exterminate the Jews from the world. I don’t want any people in the world to suffer, but this is ridiculous.

Comment by Brett on 4/03/09 at 12:20 pm

It is amazing that “reasonable” people are accepting the premise that there exists a distinct Palestinian people. The PLO was one of many artificial movements of National Liberation synthesized by the KGB. The former director of the Romanian Communist intelligence service, created and sustained the PLO in the early 1960’s as part of a global Cold War Communist strategy. Yassir Arafat is an Egyptian, who never desired a state, but only wanted to kill Jews. He was convinced by his handlers to consistently lie in order to convince the gullible west, like Jimmy Carter, that he represented a legitimate government in exile.

  There is nothing which renders the so called Palestinians a people distinct in terms of ethnicity, language or culture, except for the fact that their great grandfathers may have lived in what is now Israel, but left (mostly at the urging of invading Arab armies) in 1948 and 1967. They were told by Arab nations to leave, so that invading armies could rid the region of Jews. The Arabs were promised that they could return afterward to claim their homes as well as any property that belonged to the defeated Jews. Some Arabs remained and have full privileges of Israeli citizenship.

  After suffering military defeat, the Pan Arab Nationalist cause of Nasser, et al retrenched under the guise of Islamic fundamentalism. The conclusion was that the Nachba (catastrophe of infidels sovereignly ruling over a part of the Ummah) was only possible because Arabs had become corrupt, Westernized and just weren’t Muslim enough. Their answer to the fall from Allah’s grace was to embrace religious fundamentalism.

  Nevertheless today, Arabs living in Jerusalem would prefer to continue to be under Israeli rule by a 2:1 margin.

  There has never been a Palestinian state. The British Mandate dealt with formerly Turkish/Ottoman territory for 400 years.
  If there were such a hunger for a Palestinian state, why not call it Jordan??  Yes, Jordan was established as a Judenrein (Jew free) state, for Arabs in 1922 who did not want to live with among Jews. Even then, the British imported the Hashemites from Arabia to govern, insofar as the local Arabs (so called Palesitnians) had no experience or inclination at self government.
  The Muslim narrative is that infidels are welcome to live within Dar al Islam, but only as dhimmis. The only desire for a socalled Palestinian state is based upon a staged desire to convert all of Israel into part of the Ummah. Jews in the region can either convert, flee, die or become dhimmis.
  This is a ruse by a triumphalistic ideology, which happens to also be a religion.

  The Mufti was best friends with Adolf Eichman, and was plotting a bicontinental final solution to the Jewish question with Hitler. He was not a side show, having recruited two SS divisions among Bosnian Muslims. Known as the Hanja (sword) Divisions.

  Brigette Gabriel’s narrative is her testimony of her experience in Lebanon as an Arab Christian which cannot be refuted by ad hominum attack. Walid Shoebat a former PLO terrorist confirms the thinking behind the strategic lies sown by Islam under the doctrine of Al tikkya.
  It is tragic that useful idiots in the Western media buy into the nonsense. There is so little truth to the big lie, but Goebels was correct that the bigger the lie, the more it sets a standard for belief.

  The Palestinian cause is following the same pattern as the fake cause of the Sudeten Germans in 1938! It is entirely trumped up, serving the purposes of antisemitism, triumphalist Isalm and ultimately Satan, whose campaign is to prove God a liar by eliminated the People of Promise.

  The Bottom Line: an equal number of Jews were expelled from Arab lands in 1948 as Arabs who left Israel. The fact that there are Arabs in the Kinesset indicates that even today Arabs are free to vote, be educated, work as physicians alongside Jewish doctors. In fact the leader of the Arab party in the Kinesset is an OB-Gyn who has delivered many high ranking Jewish wives!
  Israel is tolerant of other faiths living with full rights, whereas Jews living under Ummah protection are disenfranchised. The yellow star was not invented by Hitler, but by the Ottoman Ummah.

  Arabs have 22 nations in the Middle East where they practice various degrees of self rule, from Monarchy, to nominal democratic thugocracies. Jews have only one nation. In the 1920’s the Jews represented nearly half of the population of Bagdhad! The ethnic cleansing practiced by the Arab nations in 1948 was much greater than Jews expelling Arabs from their diminished territory established under the British mandate. Between 1917 and 1948, the British promise of a Jewish homeland was diminished in size as well as permitted Jewish immigration. The White Paper of 1939 resulted in many being locked into Hitler’s Europe.

  Why haven’t Arab nations permitted their ethnic and religious brethren to leave refugee camps and be integrated into Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan? The truth is that more Arab refugees live in Arab nations in camps than in the “occupied” territories. Islam/Arabs have used this created Theatre of Palestinian suffering to emotionally hook secular humanist Westerners into buying the BIG LIE!

  “Arab self determination over Palestine is a matter of appetite; whereas Jewish self determination in Israel is a matter of starvation!”

David Ben Gurion

Comment by Elliott on 4/03/09 at 1:02 pm

Brett, it is late and I don’t have much time to comment but in regard to your statement that there was an Arab-Nazi connection before there was any talk of Jews returning to Palestine I have yet to hear that there was a Nazi party back in 1880 when the Zionist project began. There was no no Nazi party when the Balfour declaration was issued.

Brett, as I wrote before the reason that the Palestinians want their land back is not because those who dispossessed them are Jewish. Any group who came in to take over would not be regarded favorably.

That said, there was room enough in Palestine for both peoples. Unfortunately, the Palestinians knew that the Jews had every intention of taking over the lion’s share of the land and didn’t think that they should have to leave so that Europeans could come and take over.

There were some Zionists who thought that there should have been a bi-national state especially because they knew that it would be wrong to expel those who were there before them and because they knew that Jews could never be completely safe if they alienated everyone around them. Turns out they were correct.

And frankly Brett, I don’t know why I should have any more right to “return” to a country where I never lived while my Palestinian friend who has the deed to the home in Jerusalem where her family lived for generations cannot return to the land of her birth.

It is past time that Jews admit that a massive injustice was done to the Palestinians and that they have been made the victims of victims. But, unfortunately, most Israelis and people such as you and Elliott will probably never admit that.

Finally Elliot, I guess you didn’t read my earlier posting when I wrote that had the Palestinian Arabs not been dispossessed from their lands and homes in 1947-48, the Jews of the Arab countries might well be still living and prospering in their homes. The expulsion of the Jews of Arab countries came AFTER the Palestinians were driven out.

I suggest that both of you, Brett and Elliot, Google Naeim Giladi, an Iraqi Jew who emigrated to Israel and was used by Mossad to frighten Iraqi Jews into fleeing to Israel. His is a story of treachery by Israel against the Jews of Iraq who had, for the most part, thrived in Iraq far more than they did in Europe. 

And please don’t praise Israel for taking in the Jews of Arab countries. Israel needed more bodies and more laborers and many of these darker skinned Jews supplied much needed labor.

Good night and shalom.

Comment by Janice on 4/03/09 at 8:38 pm

Given the fact that the US under Obama has decided to toss Israel, the cosmos(world system) is setting up for an Islamist victory. So, it will be the world against Israel, left with God’s promises, which He will fulfill for His namesake!

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1384

Obama is going to sell out Israel in order to win Iranian and Arab cooperation in Afghanistan.

  The humanist discussions regarding who dispossessed whom from what homeland may not matter, although neither I nor Janice were on the scene in 1948 in Baghdad or Palestine. I do know that the final straw for Jews in Iraq was the hanging of the community’s most prominent Jews by Sadam Hussein in 1969. Even in a secular Arab nation, Jews were eventually cleansed fro their homes and businesses.

  Last time I checked, the descendants of Arabs who remained in 1948 were citizens, with representation in the Kinesset. Mosques operate freely within Israel. How many synagogs are there in Jordan?
  How many times did Jews purchase the land?? Aside from David’s purchase from Araunah the Jebusite (2Samuel 24), the absentee landlords of the wasteland sold it to the Jews at inflated prices several times over, even after the British had promised it.

  Justice in the Islamist lexicon means that any land that a Muslim has ever occupied belongs to the Ummah!  So, this would include Spain, much of France, the Balkans, Eastern Europe up to the gates of Vienna as well as India. That is just for starters.
  All the world is to become a part of Dar al Islam, any part (US, Canada, etc.) is to be the world of war “Dar al Harb” until it is subdued.

  Dignifying a fictitious, made up people as a true movement of national liberation is ridiculous. This is the same as Chamberlain buying into Goebel’s narrative of the Sudeten Germans. With regard to Israelis being occupiers, I believe that the Turks (not ethnic Arabs) occupied the region since 1517, before losing to the Allies in WWI. So where were the valiant Palestinian nationalists then? There have never been indiginous leadership of the PLO. All were Soviet proxies.

  Again the KGB created the PLO in 1964.

  With regard to losing nations being compelled to absorb their people within their constricted borders, look at Potsdam and the ethnic Germans of East Prussia who were forced to leave with what they could carry.

  War and separation of conflicting religious and ethnic groups seems to work better than a bunch of UN peacekeepers. The Arabs should absorb their people, after all they did attack and lose in 1967 and 1973. To bad Israel will have to do it all over again or die at the hands of US betrayal.

  It will be awesome to see how God handles this. Remember, that He is bound by the unconditional covenant that He swore upon Himself. Perhaps the wickedness of Hamas, Hezzbollah and their Iranian supporters has risen to the level of Divine judgment. I grieve for the US, which is being (mis)led into a death spiral for cursing Israel.

Comment by Elliott on 4/04/09 at 8:27 pm

Maybe Mr Rob Eshman’s comments on Oliphant’s cartoon would have had more credence had he been known for holding the same logic when the heinous radical Jews were besmirching Palestinians(both Muslim and Christian)as well as Arabs and Muslims wholesale.Why had he never held the same lamguage towards them as he is now holding against Oliphant? Or does he only rise from his deep slumber whenever the supremacist Israelis who happen to be on the receiving end?

Comment by Patrice Hupard on 6/08/09 at 4:25 am

When we start claiming a group of people are beyond criticism, we are in danger of creating the environment that lead to the holocaust. Israel is not perfect. Neither are Palestinians.

Comment by Lindsay Foyle on 9/28/09 at 12:53 am

We are well beyond the pretense or need for fairness of a false moral equivalency between a proxy nationalist movement representing an ill defined ethno-religious people group and an established sovereign nation founded in order to provide a homeland for the Jewish people in the modern world.
  The location of the Jewish homeland is not randomly selected, but based upon a 4000 year presence as a distinct people stretching back to the time of Jacob. The descendants of Esau and Ishamael have 22 sovereign states in the region. Within these, even the most Westernized have a Judenrein policy. How many synagogues are there in Jordan or Egypt (forget about Saudi Arabia)?

  There were no Palestinian complaints before 1967, when for 19 years Jordan “occupied” Judea and Samaria, while Egypt owned Sinai and Gaza.

  Following the same illogic being applied in the Israeli-Palestinian debate, every sovereign nation in Europe would become Balkanized under the assault of spontaneous reversion to tribal origin identities.

  The Palestinians are ethnic Arabs who should be absorbed into the Arab nation of their choice, with UN efforts and support applied to their resettlelment rather than maintaining them in UNWRA camps scattered throughout the Middle East.

Comment by Elliott on 9/28/09 at 7:57 am

You’ve done it Elliot, solved the problem. I’m sure you also intended for the UN to help resettle all the Jews who are not ethnically Middle Eastern to a country of their choosing, other than Israel of cause.

Comment by Lindsay Foyle on 9/29/09 at 10:27 pm

Post a Comment

Name:
Email:
URL:

Type the word you see below:

Comment:

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

About this Blog

Blog Home
About the Blogger(s)
Contact

Blog Archive

• By Month
• Categories

• By Month
• Categories